A Brief Announcement from Umbrella

[dunhill2071]

whats on the table now?

[Unknown Smurf]

[quote name='dunhill2071' timestamp='1333349042' post='2947217']
whats on the table now?
[/quote]

As will all negotiations that amount is ever changing so we won't be posting anything publicly about it. You'll know [s]when[/s] if both sides formally agree to something.

Edited April 2, 2012 by Unknown Smurf

[Leet Guy]

[quote name='Aeros' timestamp='1333229265' post='2946327']
Its not just them who have taken more then 18 Million in damages. I would bet my entire pile of tech (such as it is) that had this tech trade been done by a major alliance like NPO, GATO, VE, etc, you would not have demanded reps. You would have demanded an Apology. And I seriously doubt that apology would have meant forcing the leaders of those alliances to post one of those ridiculous mercy board responses. They would have told you to go jump off a cliff and dared you to blow up the treaty web. If they were nice, they may have gone so far as to offer 3 million in reparations to cover what was sent for the tech trade. Maybe.
[/quote]

You've been doing a pretty good job of arguing yourself into the ground here, but this comment I think needs to be expanded on as to how mindbogglingly off-base it is. You cited two of the oldest alliances still existing on Bob, and then a blocmate of GOONS in this pretty little "imagine if" scenario. In the latter case, despite it being hard to imagine [i]any[/i] raiding scenario occur, I don't think it's hard for any of us to extrapolate that two blocmates can figure out how to end something without demanding reps of one another. That was a excruciatingly bad comparison.

As for NPO and GATO, a few things come to mind. First of all, as has been said, they wouldn't have blinked at the thought of paying 18 million. The ability to pay certainly is a factor, and such a minute amount would have been paid immediately. However, you are also right that an apology might have been a simple enough route had those been the aggravated parties. I pointed out that NPO and GATO are two of our oldest alliances because it means something to say you've been around the block a few times. These are alliances that apologies actually carry weight, and enough of a goodwill that you don't have to be concerned about war aid to rogues becoming a repeat issue. When you're a major alliance within this game, [i]of course[/i] you are afforded great respect and leniency. To deny this being the case is to be intentionally obtuse and subjectively biased.

You also cannot simply try and complain that 18 million is not comparable to 2,000 soldiers. While only a small amount of that (lets say 3 million of it) was a reparation for the damages those 2,000 soldiers caused, the other 15 million is a acknowledgement of the wrongdoing (war aid for a nation at war with GOONS) to say "this wont happen again." As a comparison, back in the lead up to the previous global war, we had an incident where a few Fark guys went rogue on MK. I think we settled for 10 slots of 3 million / 50 tech aid. Only about six or seven of those slots was for the war damages, while the last three or four slots were a gesture acknowledging the wrong doing. Even though our alliances were clearly on a crash course for war at the time, I couldn't describe a friendlier group than the various Fark people I talked to. This is why large alliances are generally successful, because we don't have to !@#$%^&* around in negotiations with a "we're just a small guy!!!" chip in our shoulder. The pay was certainly scaled to accommodate for MONGOLS small size, and they still chose to refuse the payment, signing themselves to armed conflict.

[mattski133]

[quote name='Unknown Smurf' timestamp='1333351434' post='2947225']
As will all negotiations that amount is ever changing so we won't be posting anything publicly about it. You'll know [s]when[/s] if both sides formally agree to something.
[/quote]

would not surprise me if this war lasted into the next one.

[Tick1]

[quote name='mattski133' timestamp='1333394428' post='2947391']
would not surprise me if this war lasted into the next one.
[/quote]

Wont be much of a war if it lasts that long...... (Oh snap nano nations declaring on the bottom nations of GOONS, what a site that'll be)

[Unknown Smurf]

[quote name='Leet Guy' timestamp='1333392376' post='2947382']
You've been doing a pretty good job of arguing yourself into the ground here, but this comment I think needs to be expanded on as to how mindbogglingly off-base it is. You cited two of the oldest alliances still existing on Bob, and then a blocmate of GOONS in this pretty little "imagine if" scenario. In the latter case, despite it being hard to imagine [i]any[/i] raiding scenario occur, I don't think it's hard for any of us to extrapolate that two blocmates can figure out how to end something without demanding reps of one another. That was a excruciatingly bad comparison.

[b]As for NPO and GATO, a few things come to mind. First of all, as has been said, they wouldn't have blinked at the thought of paying 18 million.[/b] The ability to pay certainly is a factor, and such a minute amount would have been paid immediately. However, you are also right that an apology might have been a simple enough route had those been the aggravated parties. I pointed out that NPO and GATO are two of our oldest alliances because it means something to say you've been around the block a few times. These are alliances that apologies actually carry weight, and enough of a goodwill that you don't have to be concerned about war aid to rogues becoming a repeat issue. When you're a major alliance within this game, [i]of course[/i] you are afforded great respect and leniency. To deny this being the case is to be intentionally obtuse and subjectively biased.

You also cannot simply try and complain that 18 million is not comparable to 2,000 soldiers. While only a small amount of that (lets say 3 million of it) was a reparation for the damages those 2,000 soldiers caused, the other 15 million is a acknowledgement of the wrongdoing (war aid for a nation at war with GOONS) to say "this wont happen again." As a comparison, back in the lead up to the previous global war, we had an incident where a few Fark guys went rogue on MK. I think we settled for 10 slots of 3 million / 50 tech aid. Only about six or seven of those slots was for the war damages, while the last three or four slots were a gesture acknowledging the wrong doing. Even though our alliances were clearly on a crash course for war at the time, I couldn't describe a friendlier group than the various Fark people I talked to. This is why large alliances are generally successful, because we don't have to !@#$%^&* around in negotiations with a "we're just a small guy!!!" chip in our shoulder.[b] The pay was certainly scaled to accommodate for MONGOLS small size,[/b] and they still chose to refuse the payment, signing themselves to armed conflict.
[/quote]

You've been doing a pretty good job of arguing yourself into the ground here.

Considering the two bolded statements and that mongols was 1/36th the size of NPO at the start of the war.. are you saying that you would have charged NPO 648 million if they sent 3mill+2k soldiers to a person you raided? And they would have no problem paying it?

Edited April 2, 2012 by Unknown Smurf

[Leet Guy]

[quote name='Unknown Smurf' timestamp='1333397594' post='2947405']
[A]re you saying that you would have charged NPO 648 million if they sent 3mill+2k soldiers to a person you raided?
[/quote]

Nope.

[Laslo Kenez]

[quote]

You've been doing a pretty good job of arguing yourself into the ground here.

Considering the two bolded statements and that mongols was 1/36th the size of NPO at the start of the war.. are you saying that you would have charged NPO 648 million if they sent 3mill+2k soldiers to a person you raided? And they would have no problem paying it?
[/quote]

He's obviously not saying that the scale is 100% consistent to that. You've inferred that yourself basically, and completely ignored all of the text after the first bolded passage that indicates that we'd have had a completely different experience to begin with. Regardless, $18m is a small amount to anyone who's spent two months playing and read a couple of guides, what a ridiculous attempt to make it seem like anything other than a trivial drop in the ocean.

[omfghi2u2]

I think something we are all forgetting is that this war is not about the amount of reps, but about principles. Mongols/Kaskus thinks they should not be paying reps for a tech raid gone wrong. GOONS thinks that they should receive reps because Mongols/Kaskus interfered with a tech raid gone wrong. Umbrella is in this war because GOONS cant fight a single nation in Mongols/Kaskus, so instead of Umbrella nations ghosting GOONS AA, they decided to just declare since they are pumping aid into GOONS anyway.

I believe this is the jist of what has been going on in this war. All other deviations are

[list]
[*]rep amount is ridiculous
[*]GOONS sucks at war and needs to rely on outside support to fight
[*]Mongols/Kaskus are not micro alliances since they have over a million NS combined (initially), thus GOONS should call in allies
[*]sending soldiers in a "tech deal" is an automatic warrent for war
[/list]

Am I missing anything?

-omfg

edit: my mistake, meant to say that that had 1.2 million to be exact combined.

Edited April 2, 2012 by omfghi2u2

[Unknown Smurf]

[quote name='Laslo Kenez' timestamp='1333398855' post='2947408']
He's obviously not saying that the scale is 100% consistent to that. You've inferred that yourself basically, and completely ignored all of the text after the first bolded passage that indicates that we'd have had a completely different experience to begin with. Regardless, $18m is a small amount to anyone who's spent two months playing and read a couple of guides, what a ridiculous attempt to make it seem like anything other than a trivial drop in the ocean.
[/quote]

Obviously I'm being intentionally obtuse. But the notion that 18mill was low because it was mongols and not NPO, for example, is ridiculous.

[Lurunin]

[quote name='omfghi2u2' timestamp='1333400350' post='2947416']
I think something we are all forgetting is that this war is not about the amount of reps, but about principles. Mongols/Kaskus thinks they should not be paying reps for a tech raid gone wrong. GOONS thinks that they should receive reps because Mongols/Kaskus interfered with a tech raid gone wrong. Umbrella is in this war because GOONS cant fight a single nation in Mongols/Kaskus, so instead of Umbrella nations ghosting GOONS AA, they decided to just declare since they are pumping aid into GOONS anyway.

I believe this is the jist of what has been going on in this war. All other deviations are

[list]
[*]rep amount is ridiculous
[*]GOONS sucks at war and needs to rely on outside support to fight
[b][*]Mongols/Kaskus are not micro alliances since they have over a million NS (initially), thus GOONS should call in allies[/b]
[*]sending soldiers in a "tech deal" is an automatic warrent for war
[/list]

Am I missing anything?

-omfg
[/quote]

you sure about that one?

not trolling or anything but honestly thought both were 600k-800k max in size

[Unknown Smurf]

[quote name='Lurunin' timestamp='1333401551' post='2947422']
you sure about that one?

not trolling or anything but honestly thought both were 600k-800k max in size
[/quote]

Kaskus was 650k-ish and Mongols was 350k-ish I believe.

[Lurunin]

[quote name='Unknown Smurf' timestamp='1333402525' post='2947428']
Kaskus was 650k-ish and Mongols was 350k-ish I believe.
[/quote]

that's what i had thought

i don't think Mongols even showed up on the list of all alliances because they were too weak even for the very last spot

[Swatch0]

[quote name='Lurunin' timestamp='1333402676' post='2947430']
that's what i had thought

i don't think Mongols even showed up on the list of all alliances because they were too weak even for the very last spot
[/quote]

Nah, Mongols are putting up a good fight. They are not as weak as everyone thinks they are

[Leerjet]

There is plenty of victory for Kaskus and Mongols to be had. Victories come in different ways, you may win the overall conflict at hand, but how much are they costing you and your allies? While they are pouring aid into you guys, they aren't receiving tech, causing them to slow down their nation building in order to help you guys. So this overall is costing both sides the same amount, rather than you guys just "curbstomping" them.

[Lurunin]

[quote name='Swatch0' timestamp='1333403390' post='2947435']
Nah, Mongols are putting up a good fight. They are not as weak as everyone thinks they are
[/quote]

weak as in stats

[Neo Uruk]

[quote name='Leerjet' timestamp='1333404884' post='2947454']
There is plenty of victory for Kaskus and Mongols to be had. Victories come in different ways, you may win the overall conflict at hand, but how much are they costing you and your allies? While they are pouring aid into you guys, they aren't receiving tech, causing them to slow down their nation building in order to help you guys. So this overall is costing both sides the same amount, rather than you guys just "curbstomping" them.
[/quote]
Reminder that this just means Umbrella will steamroll someone for more than a week in the next war.

[Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz]

[quote name='Unknown Smurf' timestamp='1333402525' post='2947428']
Kaskus was 650k-ish and Mongols was 350k-ish I believe.
[/quote]
You should add yourself and the 4 or so ex-NEW nations who joined in, added ~250-280k ns to Kaskus

Edited April 2, 2012 by Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz

[mattski133]

[quote name='omfghi2u2' timestamp='1333400350' post='2947416']
I think something we are all forgetting is that this war is not about the amount of reps, but about principles. Mongols/Kaskus thinks they should not be paying reps for a tech raid gone wrong. GOONS thinks that they should receive reps because Mongols/Kaskus interfered with a tech raid gone wrong. Umbrella is in this war because GOONS cant fight a single nation in Mongols/Kaskus, so instead of Umbrella nations ghosting GOONS AA, they decided to just declare since they are pumping aid into GOONS anyway.

I believe this is the jist of what has been going on in this war. All other deviations are

[list]
[*]rep amount is ridiculous
[*]GOONS sucks at war and needs to rely on outside support to fight
[*]Mongols/Kaskus are not micro alliances since they have over a million NS combined (initially), thus GOONS should call in allies
[*]sending soldiers in a "tech deal" is an automatic warrent for war
[/list]

Am I missing anything?

-omfg

edit: my mistake, meant to say that that had 1.2 million to be exact combined.
[/quote]

it wasn't a tech raid gone wrong. i can't tell what you're getting at with the rest of your post but i stopped there. it was a tech raid interfered with, a diplomatic disaster on the part of mongols, and a grinding war as a result.

[quote name='Swatch0' timestamp='1333403390' post='2947435']
Nah, Mongols are putting up a good fight. They are not as weak as everyone thinks they are
[/quote]

they/you have been utterly destroyed. the question is no longer MONGOLS, but Kaskus.

[quote name='Leerjet' timestamp='1333404884' post='2947454']
There is plenty of victory for Kaskus and Mongols to be had. Victories come in different ways, you may win the overall conflict at hand, but how much are they costing you and your allies? While they are pouring aid into you guys, they aren't receiving tech, causing them to slow down their nation building in order to help you guys. So this overall is costing both sides the same amount, rather than you guys just "curbstomping" them.
[/quote]

basically, they've acted as a speed bump. same thing.

[Aeros]

[quote name='Leet Guy' timestamp='1333392376' post='2947382']
You've been doing a pretty good job of arguing yourself into the ground here, but this comment I think needs to be expanded on as to how mindbogglingly off-base it is.
[/quote]

I was simply throwing Alliance names out there. I could have said ODN, IRON, hell, even Valhalla and my point would pretty much be the same.

The "point" is that its not so much who the actors are as the principles that are involved. For example, instead of NPO, lets say its IRON. IRON has some dude get pissed off about his tech trader getting raided, and so he sends some help. You guys demand that IRON pay reps to whatever amount you deem appropriate. IRON decides to tell you that since they don't approve of tech raiding, as codified by their charter, they cannot in good faith pay reparations for a raid gone bad. At which point you say the leader of IRON could just do a mercy board retardation on your forums. At which point they tell you to take a flying leap.

What now? You have reached the same conundrum as existed when I was using GATO and NPO as my examples. Do you blow up the treaty web over a tech raid without taking into consideration the ramifications for yourself and your allies? Are your principles written in stone, as you say, or are they shall we say, flexible?

[mattski133]

[quote name='Aeros' timestamp='1333412008' post='2947515']
I was simply throwing Alliance names out there. I could have said ODN, IRON, hell, even Valhalla and my point would pretty much be the same.

The "point" is that its not so much who the actors are as the principles that are involved. For example, instead of NPO, lets say its IRON. IRON has some dude get pissed off about his tech trader getting raided, and so he sends some help. You guys demand that IRON pay reps to whatever amount you deem appropriate. IRON decides to tell you that since they don't approve of tech raiding, as codified by their charter, they cannot in good faith pay reparations for a raid gone bad. At which point you say the leader of IRON could just do a mercy board retardation on your forums. At which point they tell you to take a flying leap.

What now? You have reached the same conundrum as existed when I was using GATO and NPO as my examples. Do you blow up the treaty web over a tech raid without taking into consideration the ramifications for yourself and your allies? Are your principles written in stone, as you say, or are they shall we say, flexible?
[/quote]

some alliances would leave their member out to dry, others would not.

[Aeros]

[quote name='mattski133' timestamp='1333412274' post='2947518']
some alliances would leave their member out to dry, others would not.
[/quote]

Any alliance worth anything would not. Its kinda the whole point of the Alliance thingy.

[mattski133]

[quote name='Aeros' timestamp='1333412449' post='2947520']
Any alliance worth anything would not. Its kinda the whole point of the Alliance thingy.
[/quote]

well i believe a few have already surfaced (was it...Invicta?) that would leave the raiding nations to deal with the nation they are fighting even if that nation is getting aided by a third party.

you can just as easily abandon the nation that sent the aid if you are an alliance, that happens sometimes, you just boot them out rather than pay anyone any reperations. seen that plenty of times.

in this case, the nations sending the aid were condoned by MONGOLS government (though i use that term loosely) so the second option wasn't really there. i sincerely doubt anyone in Doomhouse would take the first option, which leaves-

Option A: pay us, apologize, and/or do a mercy board term
Option B: get nuked on an alliance-wide scale.

it's usually done quietly and nothing more comes of it.

[Swatch0]

[quote name='mattski133' timestamp='1333411544' post='2947512']
they/you have been utterly destroyed. the question is no longer MONGOLS, but Kaskus.
[/quote]

I still stand, so does Kaskus alongside Mongols...

Edited April 3, 2012 by Swatch0

[Aeros]

[quote name='mattski133' timestamp='1333412791' post='2947524']
well i believe a few have already surfaced (was it...Invicta?) that would leave the raiding nations to deal with the nation they are fighting even if that nation is getting aided by a third party.

you can just as easily abandon the nation that sent the aid if you are an alliance, that happens sometimes, you just boot them out rather than pay anyone any reperations. seen that plenty of times.
[/quote]

Ah, I was misunderstanding, I thought you were referring to the person who helped the target, not the raider. Raiding is a different beast. In my view, a raider is on his own up until the point he is faced with annihilation. So I suppose my thought process is that your raiders must be very bad at war if 3 million dongs and 2,000 soldiers is enough the give the target of 3 raiding nations a significant advantage.

Edited April 3, 2012 by Aeros