Sardonic Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 (edited) [quote name='trimm' timestamp='1330407766' post='2929779'] So let me see if I understand you correctly, in all seriousness: If a GOONS member gets approval and tech raids someone, and that someone fights back, then the GOONS member is on their own. If a GOONS member gets approval and tech raids someone, and that someone get's outside aid in order to fight back, then we get where we are right now? [/quote] And that outsider refuses to pay reps or other remedies, yes. The raid target's free to go at any time really if he wants to join a valid alliance. Edited February 28, 2012 by Sardonic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimm Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 [quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1330407895' post='2929782'] And that outsider refuses to pay reps or other remedies, yes. [/quote] So you don't see it as an inherent risk that a tech raider assumes when picking a target that said target might have friends, even if they are technically unaligned? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schad Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 [quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1330406217' post='2929761'] Yet, the definition of "war" it what the entire issue hinged on. GOONS see a raid as an alliance war as far as I can ascertain while saying the generally won't help a raider if they get into trouble. This seems a little contradictory as if the raid is an alliance war then you'd assume assistance would be forthcoming at all times. [/quote] It's only contradictory if one assumes that it actually hinges on the definition of "war", rather than the fact that GOONS has the ability to do what they desire these days, and thus can define just about anything as just about anything else. [quote] You say all commentary on issues like these has no practical bearing on the aituation yet say you aren't calling for people to shut up? You bemoan the "bizarre little dance routine" that occurs when these topics are argued and yet you aren't calling for people to shut up? I'm a little confused. Is the solution to this conundrum that you don't read these discussions and save yourselve the angst? [/quote] Point being that there's a central issue in this and other like threads, and it ain't about consistent exercise of one's internal policies. So why does it inevitably become an argument about such things? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanilla Napalm Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 [quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1330395572' post='2929642'] It was a raid... You can play semantics over the word "war" all you like, it doesn't change what has happened at all. [/quote] [quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1330406217' post='2929761'] Yet, the definition of "war" it what the entire issue hinged on. [/quote] Seriously dude, the hell? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sardonic Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 [quote name='trimm' timestamp='1330408005' post='2929784'] So you don't see it as an inherent risk that a tech raider assumes when picking a target that said target might have friends, even if they are technically unaligned? [/quote] Yes, there's an inherent risk. I'd say it's something like AR = IR*CR*DR Anomaly Risk = Inherent Risk * Control (of member) Risk * Detection risk (The risk that the raid was mistakenly affirmed) Where IR * CR can be simplified to RMM: Raid Mistake Malfeasance. But in all seriousness, yes there's a risk, it's a risk that we more than welcome ensuring against, because it can lead to fun situations like this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimm Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 [quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1330408506' post='2929792'] Yes, there's an inherent risk. I'd say it's something like AR = IR*CR*DR Anomaly Risk = Inherent Risk * Control (of member) Risk * Detection risk (The risk that the raid was mistakenly affirmed) Where IR * CR can be simplified to RMM: Raid Mistake Malfeasance. But in all seriousness, yes there's a risk, it's a risk that we more than welcome ensuring against, because it can lead to fun situations like this. [/quote] So, if I understand you correctly, this whole war essentially comes down to GOONS saying, "If you fight back in a raid 1 vs 1, ok. But if you go get help, then we'll come down on you like a bag of hammers, just because we have somehow concluded it is in our best interests to do so." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernesto Che Guevara Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 [quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1330408506' post='2929792'] Yes, there's an inherent risk. I'd say it's something like AR = IR*CR*DR Anomaly Risk = Inherent Risk * Control (of member) Risk * Detection risk (The risk that the raid was mistakenly affirmed) Where IR * CR can be simplified to RMM: Raid Mistake Malfeasance. But in all seriousness, yes there's a risk, it's a risk that we more than welcome ensuring against, because it can lead to fun situations like this. [/quote] You're using too much logic on these worthless dolts. Let me handle this for you. They were given a chance to make things right with GOONS. They could complete a mercy board term (which are usually rather fun, and this one wasn't any different). Instead of legitimately trying to complete the terms, they sent an abrasive lunatic over to complete said terms. And while GOONS have quite the sense of humor, sitting there and insulting them (while asking for mercy, no less) is certainly not the way to get what you want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groucho Marx Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 [quote name='trimm' timestamp='1330408664' post='2929794'] So, if I understand you correctly, this whole war essentially comes down to GOONS saying, "If you fight back in a raid 1 vs 1, ok. But if you go get help, then we'll come down on you like a bag of hammers, just because we have somehow concluded it is in our best interests to do so." [/quote] I think what this all comes down to is a third party deliberately and knowingly interfered in a situation where the outcome for such interference wouldn't be good for them if they refused a universal diplomatic solution. Which they did. So here we are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimm Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 [quote name='Ernesto Che Guevara' timestamp='1330408826' post='2929795'] You're using too much logic on these worthless dolts. Let me handle this for you. They were given a chance to make things right with GOONS. They could complete a mercy board term (which are usually rather fun, and this one wasn't any different). Instead of legitimately trying to complete the terms, they sent an abrasive lunatic over to complete said terms. And while GOONS have quite the sense of humor, sitting there and insulting them (while asking for mercy, no less) is certainly not the way to get what you want. [/quote] Wow, ok, insults for the win again. The argument that they had anything to make up to GOONS in the first place is rather unconvincing to begin with, although I apprieciate Sardonic attempting to do so rationally rather than by calling people "kid" or "dolt." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sardonic Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 (edited) [quote name='trimm' timestamp='1330408664' post='2929794'] So, if I understand you correctly, this whole war essentially comes down to GOONS saying, "If you fight back in a raid 1 vs 1, ok. But if you go get help, then we'll come down on you like a bag of hammers, just because we have somehow concluded it is in our best interests to do so." [/quote] No, we would not come down on the raid target like a bag of hammers, just those who interfere. The raid target is largely irrelevant. It is absolutely in our best interests to do this. Crushing alliances of fools like MONGOL? This is why I lead, this is what my alliance lives for. I'm not afraid to say that we as an alliance love combat. Real combat, not raiding. Call us bullies if you must, but we gave them more than one out. Edited February 28, 2012 by Sardonic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimm Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 [quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1330409029' post='2929798'] No, we would not come down on the raid target like a bag of hammers, just those who interfere. The raid target is largely irrelevant. It is absolutely in our best interests to do this. Crushing alliances of fools like MONGOL? This is why I lead, this is what my alliance lives for. I'm not afraid to say that we as an alliance love combat. Real combat, not raiding. Call us bullies if you must, be we gave them more than one out. [/quote] I appreciate your candor, even if i still pretty much totally disagree with your reasoning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernesto Che Guevara Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 [quote name='trimm' timestamp='1330408965' post='2929797'] Wow, ok, insults for the win again. The argument that they had anything to make up to GOONS in the first place is rather unconvincing to begin with, although I apprieciate Sardonic attempting to do so rationally rather than by calling people "kid" or "dolt." [/quote] Incompetency does not excuse any alliance. They screwed up by not having legitimate allies and aiding a nation at war. That's generally regarded as a bad thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sardonic Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 [quote name='trimm' timestamp='1330409130' post='2929800'] I appreciate your candor, even if i still pretty much totally disagree with your reasoning. [/quote] That's fine, I certainly wouldn't expect every alliance to live as we do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimm Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 [quote name='Ernesto Che Guevara' timestamp='1330409189' post='2929801'] Incompetency does not excuse any alliance. They screwed up by not having legitimate allies and aiding a nation at war. That's generally regarded as a bad thing. [/quote] Did MONGOLS make a strategic miscalculation in aiding a GOONS raid target? So it would seem. Did GOONS really have a justification for rolling MONGOLS over the fact that GOONS decided to raid someone who happened to have some friends willing to help rather than a total n00b? Color me unconvinced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groucho Marx Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 [quote name='trimm' timestamp='1330409379' post='2929805'] Did MONGOLS make a strategic miscalculation in aiding a GOONS raid target? So it would seem. Did GOONS really have a justification for rolling MONGOLS over the fact that GOONS decided to raid someone who happened to have some friends willing to help rather than a total n00b? Color me unconvinced. [/quote] Their friend wasn't a member of their alliance or officially under their protection. Argument over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimm Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 [quote name='Emperor Marx' timestamp='1330409714' post='2929808'] Their friend wasn't a member of their alliance or officially under their protection. Argument over. [/quote] Why don't you go take your air of superiority and go shove it somewhere pal? Argument over my foot. Who the frak put you in charge of deciding when the debate is over? Last I looked, folks didn't need to be in the same alliance or have a treaty to do something. Moldavi Doctrine for the win and all that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groucho Marx Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 [quote name='trimm' timestamp='1330409901' post='2929811'] Why don't you go take your air of superiority and go shove it somewhere pal? Argument over my foot. Who the frak put you in charge of deciding when the debate is over? Last I looked, folks didn't need to be in the same alliance or have a treaty to do something. Moldavi Doctrine for the win and all that? [/quote] It doesn't even matter what you just spouted in this post I just quoted. I didn't even read it. There's nothing left to debate. You're certainly welcome to keep going WHAT IF or BUT WHAT ABOUT and YEAH WELL THIS COULD MEAN all day but we're right, you're wrong. Deal with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimm Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 [quote name='Emperor Marx' timestamp='1330410031' post='2929815'] It doesn't even matter what you just spouted in this post I just quoted. I didn't even read it. There's nothing left to debate. You're certainly welcome to keep going WHAT IF or BUT WHAT ABOUT and YEAH WELL THIS COULD MEAN all day but we're right, you're wrong. Deal with it. [/quote] Yeah, no one really cares what you think, you're right. Glad we're on the same page. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MitchellBade Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 [quote name='Emperor Marx' timestamp='1330410031' post='2929815'] It doesn't even matter what you just spouted in this post I just quoted. I didn't even read it. There's nothing left to debate. You're certainly welcome to keep going WHAT IF or BUT WHAT ABOUT and YEAH WELL THIS COULD MEAN all day but we're right, you're wrong. Deal with it. [/quote] You read Schatt's topic and still think you're right? Just how bliss is this ignorance that you folks wallow in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schattenmann Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 [quote name='Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz' timestamp='1330407792' post='2929781'] I'm guessing that the (wobbly, imo) hypothesis supporting this assertion is something as follows: BN -> PF -> TOP -> MK -> DH -> GOONS? or maybe: BN -> Umb -> DH -> GOONS? Correct me if I'm mistaken, tia. [/quote] You got it, dude. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sardonic Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 (edited) [quote name='MitchellBade' timestamp='1330410535' post='2929818'] You read Schatt's topic and still think you're right? Just how bliss is this ignorance that you folks wallow in? [/quote] Schatt is more than entitled to attempt to convince people of his version of events, but while many of them have elements which are true, there is always something left out, twisting the telling of the event to his end. Schatt's "truth" is not absolute. Edited February 28, 2012 by Sardonic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanilla Napalm Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 [quote name='MitchellBade' timestamp='1330410535' post='2929818'] You read Schatt's topic and still think you're right? Just how bliss is this ignorance that you folks wallow in? [/quote] Haven't been paying too much attention have you, bud. That's cool, i can dig it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electron Sponge Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 You're boring and unoriginal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groucho Marx Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 [quote name='MitchellBade' timestamp='1330410535' post='2929818'] You read Schatt's topic and still think you're right? Just how bliss is this ignorance that you folks wallow in? [/quote] [i]whoosh[/i] I'll let you try again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest lord bitburg Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 (edited) Who cares who did what? they have us out numbered 200 to 20, but their 200 have 800 nukes, and our 20 have 200 nukes and a target rich enviroment, wohoo yahoo, I love the glow of nuke in the AM. We love being surounder and outnumbered. YOU on the sidelines, quiet you can hear the nukes cooking off, If you listen. YOU CARES game on Edited February 28, 2012 by lord bitburg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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