deth2munkies Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='Seerow' timestamp='1330013652' post='2926702'] This is a line that confuses me. How are we violating an alliance's sovereignty? Is ghosting a violation of sovereignty now, on par with sending viceroys to run a defeated alliance? Or is it publicly disagreeing with UE's new policy? Because I wasnt aware that debating opposite sides of an issue and making policies clear was a violation of sovereignty, that's called politics. [/quote] If an alliance is not allowed to control who is under their banner, it is a violation of sovereignty. I'm sorry you fail to grasp very basic political concepts, this thread has gone from a ridiculously stupid political move by one side to an overreaction and embarrassment of the other. That said, I knew it was coming. MK and friends have become so ridiculously petty and childish that if anyone ever told them not to do something, they'd do as much of it as possible out of spite. Involving 3rd parties via ghosting AAs is quite possibly the dumbest way they ever could have gone about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leet Guy Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='nutkase' timestamp='1330014729' post='2926716'] Seems to be becoming a known trait of your government. Which one is next so we can get a head start? [/quote] Banksy will probably let Roquentin join us Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
memoryproblems Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) An MK nation was ghosting TPF earlier and had made an aid offer to a UE nation while under our AA, but as per our way of doing things, we attacked him without warning. His nation was driven into anarchy and he quickly returned to the MK AA. BTW, you might want to tell him that his warchest is a little low. Edited February 23, 2012 by memoryproblems Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChairmanHal Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 So far I've learned... 1. Don't do tech deals with people when you don't like the policies of their alliance. Alert the other members of your alliance when another alliance has disagreeable tech deal problem resolution policies. 2. GOONS e-lawyers can make me laugh. 3. MK apparently likes sending it's people out to ghost other AAs (except TOP and Gramlins of course) for some sort of secret missions involving UE. Oh and.. 4. Common sense around here is in short supply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seerow Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='deth2munkies' timestamp='1330014870' post='2926717'] If an alliance is not allowed to control who is under their banner, it is a violation of sovereignty.[/quote] Luckily, the alliance is allowed to control who is under their banner. They had every right to attack our nations ghosting them. Note that 1337 wasn't saying "Don't attack or we'll roll you" it was "Sorry bout that, won't happen again". There's a gulf of difference between the two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deth2munkies Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='Seerow' timestamp='1330015366' post='2926722'] Luckily, the alliance is allowed to control who is under their banner. They had every right to attack our nations ghosting them. Note that 1337 wasn't saying "Don't attack or we'll roll you" it was "Sorry bout that, won't happen again". There's a gulf of difference between the two. [/quote] To that specific alliance, yet the order was given to ghost without restricting it to that alliance. If you've shown you're willing to ghost for as pathetic a reason as this, you show you have no respect for alliance boundaries or sovereignty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tick1 Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='deth2munkies' timestamp='1330015906' post='2926726'] To that specific alliance, yet the order was given to ghost without restricting it to that alliance. If you've shown you're willing to ghost for as pathetic a reason as this, you show you have no respect for alliance boundaries or sovereignty. [/quote] Does this mean that you are wrong and that they didn't violate your sovereignty? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerschbs Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1330015336' post='2926721'] So far I've learned... 1. Don't do tech deals with people when you don't like the policies of their alliance. Alert the other members of your alliance when another alliance has disagreeable tech deal problem resolution policies. 2. GOONS e-lawyers can make me laugh. 3. MK apparently likes sending it's people out to ghost other AAs (except TOP and Gramlins of course) for some sort of secret missions involving UE. Oh and.. 4. Common sense around here is in short supply. [/quote] Well put, very succinct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nutkase Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='Seerow' timestamp='1330015366' post='2926722'] Luckily, the alliance is allowed to control who is under their banner. They had every right to attack our nations ghosting them. [/quote] Quiz seems to have a different idea then that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Apocalypse Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='HellAngel' timestamp='1330013179' post='2926695'] Oh great, now it apparently was an government order. What the hell were you smoking MK... [16:04] <Teh1337Guy> Around? [16:04] <HellAngel[gre]> yap [16:04] <Teh1337Guy> I wanted to personally apologize for the AA jumping business. [16:04] <Teh1337Guy> Was my order so I should be the one to blame, I was hoping that people wouldnt have jumped to Gre/TOP [16:04] <Teh1337Guy> 's AA to do that. [16:05] <HellAngel[gre]> Just to get that right [16:05] <HellAngel[gre]> you ordered people to jump into other AAs? [16:05] <Teh1337Guy> Drai hasn't woken up yet but I assure you he will be off the AA in the morning. [16:05] <Teh1337Guy> I was hoping more the AA's like TPF and 64digits, just to send the aid, not a long-term ghost. [16:05] <HellAngel[gre]> so MK did loose their minds, after all [16:06] <HellAngel[gre]> i should have ordered the strikes immediately [16:06] <Teh1337Guy> I've clearly lost all sanity. [16:06] <Teh1337Guy> Given I'm trying to protect the rights of tech buyers. [16:06] <HellAngel[gre]> you remind me of an alliance that has fallen from grace and will never be relevant in CN politics again [16:06] <HellAngel[gre]> yadda yadda [16:07] <Teh1337Guy> Never relevant again? [16:07] <HellAngel[gre]> its a thing called Karma, or "annoying people just as much to want them to kill you" [16:07] <HellAngel[gre]> take that as you wish [16:08] <Teh1337Guy> I see I've really become a thorn on your side with this eh? [16:09] <HellAngel[gre]> you're purposefully violating alliances sovereignity [16:09] <HellAngel[gre]> thats about as arrogant as it can get [16:09] <Teh1337Guy> *Were. It was a mistake, hence why I'm eating the loses and apologizing. [16:10] <Teh1337Guy> I'm not quite as arrogant as you may perceive me to be. [16:11] <HellAngel[gre]> its not my job to work around the image you give yourself [/quote] If you and I ever get into a discussion about a situation remind me to never be honest with you about anything. Yeah Leetguy screwed up, I gave him !@#$ for it as well but this logdumping is a cheap shot from an alliance which I expect better of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deth2munkies Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='Tick1' timestamp='1330016085' post='2926727'] Does this mean that you are wrong and that they didn't violate your sovereignty? [/quote] Where did I say they violated [i]my[/i] sovereignty. They are violating the sovereignty of every alliance that they ghost, if they ghost mine, they are violating my sovereignty. The big thing is that this was an order from the top of MK, "Go out and violate sovereignty". They attempted take-backsies by throwing some of their own members under the bus to save face, but it doesn't change what they've actually done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tick1 Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Seerow' timestamp='1330015366' post='2926722'] Luckily, the alliance is allowed to control who is under their banner. They had every right to attack our nations ghosting them. [/quote] [quote name='deth2munkies' timestamp='1330016748' post='2926733'] Where did I say they violated [i]my[/i] sovereignty. They are violating the sovereignty of every alliance that they ghost, if they ghost mine, they are violating my sovereignty. The big thing is that this was an order from the top of MK, "Go out and violate sovereignty". They attempted take-backsies by throwing some of their own members under the bus to save face, but it doesn't change what they've actually done. [/quote] So you are saying that his reply isn't correct? I'm just making sure so the next time I ghost an alliance's affiliation I know what to expect. Edited February 23, 2012 by Tick1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nutkase Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='Johnny Apocalypse' timestamp='1330016554' post='2926732'] If you and I ever get into a discussion about a situation remind me to never be honest with you about anything. Yeah Leetguy screwed up, I gave him !@#$ for it as well but this logdumping is a cheap shot from an alliance which I expect better of. [/quote] He more then screwed up and you know it. If you offend us, expect us to throw it back in your face. If you think we would of just sat back and written it off, you know nothing of us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChairmanHal Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='Tick1' timestamp='1330016085' post='2926727'] Does this mean that you are wrong and that they didn't violate your sovereignty? [/quote] Step back for a moment. Mushroom Kingdom has, as a matter of policy, condoned, directed and sponsored all manner of espionage and dirty tricks over an extended period and apologized for it only when it was politically expedient to do so. Perhaps your attitude is, "well they are on our side, so that makes it ok." Fine. I don't even like UE, and the whole ghosting op just smells bad without even knowing all the details. Whoever approved it within MK needs to take a break and get some fresh air. Clearly their thought processes aren't functioning as designed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Apocalypse Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='nutkase' timestamp='1330017083' post='2926742'] He more then screwed up and you know it. If you offend us, expect us to throw it back in your face. If you think we would of just sat back and written it off, you know nothing of us. [/quote] Oh I do know it. Like I said I gave him a world of !@#$ for it when he told me that it was an order. I get that you were offended because it was a really crappy thing to do but he was trying to be honest and forthright with you and you basically stooped down to his level to get a cheap shot in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deth2munkies Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='Tick1' timestamp='1330017080' post='2926741'] So you are saying that his reply isn't correct? I'm just making sure so the next time I ghost an alliance's affiliation I know what to expect. [/quote] If you're going to keep talking past me and not actually listen to what I have to say, there's no reason to keep it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tick1 Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) [quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1330017230' post='2926745'] Step back for a moment. Mushroom Kingdom has, as a matter of policy, condoned, directed and sponsored all manner of espionage and dirty tricks over an extended period and apologized for it only when it was politically expedient to do so. Perhaps your attitude is, "well they are on our side, so that makes it ok." Fine. I don't even like UE, and the whole ghosting op just smells bad without even knowing all the details. Whoever approved it within MK needs to take a break and get some fresh air. Clearly their thought processes aren't functioning as designed. [/quote] I don't talk to anyone in Mushroom Kingdom nor care that they are the alliance that did it. If you think my alliance's relationship to them is clouding my opinion I assume this wont change your opinion of my previous comments. I'm just merely clarifying what is deemed an act of violating sovereignty. "Sovereignty is the quality of having supreme, independent authority over a geographic area, such as a territory" is one of the definitions given to the word, seeing as they are allowed to retaliate as needed I don't understand how they are violating their sovereignty. However it could be debated that since they are ghosting on orders they are still under the protection of MK therefor making it an act of war. However by my assumption changing your alliance affiliation removes you from said alliance therefor making this discussion pointless. Edited February 23, 2012 by Tick1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nutkase Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='Johnny Apocalypse' timestamp='1330017281' post='2926746'] Oh I do know it. Like I said I gave him a world of !@#$ for it when he told me that it was an order. I get that you were offended because it was a really crappy thing to do but he was trying to be honest and forthright with you and you basically stooped down to his level to get a cheap shot in. [/quote] Better to ask for forgiveness then permission, right? If the action was accidental, a apology could easily end the situation. A purposeful action with known consequences does not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deth2munkies Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='Tick1' timestamp='1330017584' post='2926754'] I don't talk to anyone in Mushroom Kingdom nor care that they are the alliance that did it. If you think my alliance's relationship to them is clouding my opinion I assume this wont change your opinion of my previous comments. I'm just merely clarifying what is deemed an act of violating sovereignty. "Sovereignty is the quality of having supreme, independent authority over a geographic area, such as a territory" is one of the definitions given to the word, seeing as they are allowed to retaliate as needed I don't understand how they are violating their sovereignty. However it could be debated that since they are ghosting on orders they are still under the protection of MK therefor making it an act of war. However by my assumption changing your alliance affiliation removes you from said alliance therefor making this discussion pointless. [/quote] Acting as an agent of one alliance while wearing the AA of another is duplicitous at best, criminal at worst, and looked down upon universally. It would be like a politician from one nation walking into mine, claiming that he was the leader of one of my states, then funneling all of the money and information from that state back to his old alliance. It's definitely violating my sovereign right to control what goes on in my own nation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HellAngel Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 I was astonished at the sheer diplomatical incompetence destilled in this information. Sorry to not cover up for someone who offends us. We probably owe that to TOP, though. So my apologies goes to them for making them look bad by association (whether with me or MK is your decision). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gobb Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) [quote name='nutkase' timestamp='1330013612' post='2926699'] People should be shown for what they really are. [/quote] I completely agree with you, because before this I didn't know HellAngel likes throwing a guy's sincere apology back at his face and then dumping the logs on public boards. Edited February 23, 2012 by Lord Gobb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nutkase Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='Lord Gobb' timestamp='1330017939' post='2926764'] I completely agree with you, because before this I didn't know HellAngel likes throwing a guy's sincere apology back at his face and then dumping the logs on public boards. [/quote] Please refer to my last post. Thankyou and have a nice day! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tick1 Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='deth2munkies' timestamp='1330017765' post='2926759'] Acting as an agent of one alliance while wearing the AA of another is duplicitous at best, criminal at worst, and looked down upon universally. It would be like a politician from one nation walking into mine, claiming that he was the leader of one of my states, then funneling all of the money and information from that state back to his old alliance. It's definitely violating my sovereign right to control what goes on in my own nation. [/quote] However they are controlling what goes on in their alliance by declaring war on nations ghosting. Better yet they could go through their foreign aid and figure out every single nation which ghosted their alliance and declare war on them one by one with literally zero repercussions. Seeing as sending foreign aid offers also doesn't effect anyone's nation, but their own I hardly would call it funneling money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Apocalypse Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) [quote name='nutkase' timestamp='1330017718' post='2926757'] Better to ask for forgiveness then permission, right? If the action was accidental, a apology could easily end the situation. A purposeful action with known consequences does not. [/quote] He could've easily lied about it and said "I don't know what those guys are doing" and absolved himself of all responsibility but instead he was honest with you when he had no real reason or vested interest to do so, in fact lying about it would've benefited him far more than being truthful. Instead of being the better and more mature person you decided to dump logs of a private conversation for the public to see. Clearly the best way to deal with you in the future is to lie through ones teeth because you're apparently incapable of actually taking the moral high ground which you so desperately seek and end up resorting to cheap underhanded tactics to essentially give the finger to the person who wronged you rather than be the bigger person. I guess what I'm trying to say is; hey $%&@ you buddy Edited February 23, 2012 by Johnny Apocalypse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBRaiders Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 I do completely understand why Gremlins wouldn't want anyone on their AA. They did steal it fair and square. [quote]Re-Declaration of Existence On May 15, 2011 former Grämlins members as well as the Ninjas (who merged into Grämlins) announced their claim to ownership and sovereignty over "the Grämlins" AA. Giving 7 days notice to those already on it to either join them, leave the AA or face the consequences.[/quote] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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