Ogaden Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1329984619' post='2926404'] Are you seriously going to sit there and claim the era of coalition warfare in a multi-sphered world has not generated new standards and expectations in how treaties and treaty conflicts are evaluated and resolved? If so, that's just silly, but I'll not belabor the point any more. It's clear that Myth just wants to paint Umbrella in the most negative light possible, even if what they did was well within the standards of our day. [/quote] If your treaties mean nothing and only realpolitik is relevant to anything, why sign treaties at all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephiroth Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1329984619' post='2926404'] Are you seriously going to sit there and claim the era of coalition warfare in a multi-sphered world has not generated new standards and expectations in how treaties and treaty conflicts are evaluated and resolved? If so, that's just silly, but I'll not belabor the point any more. It's clear that Myth just wants to paint Umbrella in the most negative light possible, even if what they did was well within the standards of our day. [/quote] I think its clear you don't see there to be anything wrong with not honoring treaties if its to serve the interests of some other allies, but most competent alliances try to avoid situations where they won't be able to honor their treaties. Its never a given that alliances won't honor their treaties, usually it should only happen if something goes wrong and reflects badly on the alliance who does it. Although I'm sure your allies can feel safe knowing you think not honoring your treaties with them would be the normal thing to do if your favorite ally, MK, doesn't see you honoring that treaty to be in their best interest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IYIyTh Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1329984619' post='2926404'] [i]It's clear that Myth just wants to paint Umbrella in the most negative light possible, [/i] [/quote] Excuse me, what? You made some pretty outrageous claims and I refuted them. You then backtracked and claimed that political reality justified their actions and also straw-man'd my response. When called on that because your original premise included blaming myself for simply being on the opposite end of those political realities you claim I just am trying to paint Umbrella in the most negative light possible. I've stated what actually happened. If people get offended by reality there is an alternative: Don't do those things in the first place. Perhaps you should take that "coalition experience," and trade it in for knowledge of when to quit while you're behind. Edited February 23, 2012 by IYIyTh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kriekfreak Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 If I'm not mistaken the Umbrella-Sparta treaty was not chaining. Umbrella had absolutely zero obligation to help Sparta. And if you think Umbrella let MHA and Sparta to the wolves you are either ignorant or willingly twisting facts in order to gain some kind of moral upper hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephiroth Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='kriekfreak' timestamp='1329987472' post='2926419'] If I'm not mistaken the Umbrella-Sparta treaty was not chaining. Umbrella had absolutely zero obligation to help Sparta. And if you think Umbrella let MHA and Sparta to the wolves you are either ignorant or willingly twisting facts in order to gain some kind of moral upper hand. [/quote] I think its more interesting that the leader of GOONS is blatantly advocating that alliances should throw allies to the wolves if the situation calls for it and not be criticized for it, rather than whatever actually happened between Sparta and Umbrella. Most alliance leaders at least pretend to think their treaties are meaningful commitments, rather than the Sardonic approach which considers throwing allies to the wolves to be the norm these days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monster Posted February 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 Umbrella does a good job of painting themselves in a negative light. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IYIyTh Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='kriekfreak' timestamp='1329987472' post='2926419']And if you think [u][i][b]Umbrella let MHA and Sparta to the wolves[/b][/i][/u] you are either ignorant or willingly twisting facts in order to gain some kind of moral upper hand. [/quote] I don't know why I would need to have an upper or lower hand or for it to be moral or immoral to point out reality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monster Posted February 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 Because cartoon villains don't agree with reality. Makes sense, no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kriekfreak Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1329987661' post='2926421'] I think its more interesting that the leader of GOONS is blatantly advocating that alliances should throw allies to the wolves if the situation calls for it and not be criticized for it, rather than whatever actually happened between Sparta and Umbrella. Most alliance leaders at least pretend to think their treaties are meaningful commitments, rather than the Sardonic approach which considers throwing allies to the wolves to be the norm these days. [/quote] Well I don't entirely agree with Sardonic on this point either if that helps. But when you have allies fighting on both sides, and you aren't obligated to help either then you are basically unable to do any good. Sitting out will be looked bad upon by both, helping one over the other will at least be looked favorable by one and not so favorable by the other. In this case almost all of Umb's allies were fighting on one side, including Umb's top level treaty with PB which supersedes any other treaty (yes that includes DH). It was already nice enough of Umb to not hit Sparta's closest allies in XX and the fact that they tried to help them getting off easy. Not to mention that Umbrella warned Sparta that this would happen for months before it arrived, I don't really have any pity for Sparta and I sure as hell wouldn't fault Umbrella. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monster Posted February 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) They don't have pity for themselves. Not in a good way, either. lol Coe Edited February 23, 2012 by Roquentin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kriekfreak Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1329987895' post='2926423'] I don't know why I would need to have an upper or lower hand or for it to be moral or immoral to point out reality. [/quote] Your view does not equal reality. I know this might come to you as a shock. You can continue to tow the party line with your new best friend Roq, but it's pointless. People already know that you spout this inane drivel to minimize MK and it's sphere of allies. It's not gonna work, the only thing it does it make people laugh, cry, facepalm and waste time on. But go ahead, go post random incoherent drivel added with some nice phrases and words you have learned this couple of weeks to come off smart. I have enough time to spare. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monster Posted February 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 Yes, incoherent drivel, not a trademark of you and yours at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merrie Melodies Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='kriekfreak' timestamp='1329988568' post='2926428'] Your view does not equal reality. I know this might come to you as a shock. You can continue to tow the party line with your new best friend Roq, but it's pointless. [b]People already know that you spout this inane drivel to minimize MK and it's sphere of allies[/b]. It's not gonna work, the only thing it does it make people laugh, cry, facepalm and waste time on. But go ahead, go post random incoherent drivel added with some nice phrases and words you have learned this couple of weeks to come off smart. I have enough time to spare. [/quote] Maybe you could explain to us dense masses how spying is inane drivel, I am genuinely curious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Stuart Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1329989550' post='2926434'] Maybe you could explain to us dense masses how spying is inane drivel, I am genuinely curious. [/quote] He can't though I am sure he will find someway to discredit your question by discrediting you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshuaR Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 RE: Myth The truth of the matter is that everyone except Roquentin had zero interaction with MHA, so we were all wondering why we even had a treaty with you. Then the one contact we have in MHA (you), as JA tries to get in touch, goes off on us on CNTel and shares a confidential conversation with his bloc. And we are to believe that you held the Umbrella treaty higher than your Fark treaty? Umbrella knew we'd be on the other side of the war from Sparta/MHA, and we explicitly stated such early and often. First of all, at that point we didn't believe our relationship merited an MDP-level treaty. Additionally, based on the above, we didn't know that an MHA treaty could last that type of strain (opposite sides of war), but because we held Sparta in such high regard, we didn't want them to feel we were alienating them and dropping their XX partner, so we also felt a sense of guilt at canceling MHA before a war. MHA came in full force on our forums, and through the interaction, we definitely felt our relationship was not at the MDP level. We knew we couldn't fight for you in the coming war, but at the same time, we hoped to salvage any relationship remaining and hoped MHA would accept an ODP until we could see if there was hope for the relationship. The downgrade was really the best case scenario, and that wasn't because we didn't want to be tied by treaty obligations (our treaties are non-chaining anyway, and clearly the other side of the war took supremacy). If someone randomly attacked MHA with the ODP, we would be defending them. The downgrade was simply a result of a poor relationship on both gov-gov and member-member levels, with the hope of rekindling what once was. As far as Sparta, I will admit our relationship with them was stronger, and for that very reason we were worried about what cost would come about from a war on the other side. We felt a sense that we owed them for backing us in the previous war, and we just hoped that they could see our forced decision for what it was and after the war still be willing to be friends with us, hopefully never on opposite sides of a battlefield again. During the war, you should have seen the internal heat that built up as we saw our XX allies getting crushed and piled upon. Umbrellans were genuinely angry and even ranting and yelling in allied embassies about what was going on. We weren't happily sitting there watching our allies get destroyed around us thinking, "Oh what a perfect Doomhouse/PB world we have created." No, we were straining relations ALL around because we didn't fight for one side, and we were arguing with the other side. It was already bad enough for many that we refused to attack treaty partners of Sparta and MHA. It's not good to see your friends beat up, even if they are allies of your enemies. You're damn right we tried to make sure MHA and Sparta got white peace, if that was the only thing we could even attempt to do. I really see no other stance Umbrella could have taken in the previous war. I wish everyone could have been happy. I really do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kriekfreak Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1329989550' post='2926434'] Maybe you could explain to us dense masses how spying is inane drivel, I am genuinely curious. [/quote] Oh don't assume that I don't understand the implications of what Bros did. There is a difference between being honestly disappointed/angry with MK and the act Myth is giving us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Stuart Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='kriekfreak' timestamp='1329990415' post='2926444'] Oh don't assume that I don't understand the implications of what Bros did. There is a difference between being honestly disappointed/angry with MK and the act Myth is giving us. [/quote] You didn't answer MM's question. How is spying inane drivel? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kriekfreak Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='Charles Stuart' timestamp='1329990507' post='2926447'] You didn't answer MM's question. How is spying inane drivel? [/quote] I never said spying is inane drivel. It can't even be drivel since it's an act, not words. And it's not even the comments on the spy thing that annoy me, it's all the peripheral things that myth brings into these discussion of late and the stuff that he makes up / the facts he spins around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merrie Melodies Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='kriekfreak' timestamp='1329990799' post='2926451'] I never said spying is inane drivel. It can't even be drivel since it's an act, not words. And it's not even the comments on the spy thing that annoy me, it's all the peripheral things that myth brings into these discussion of late and the stuff that he makes up / the facts he spins around. [/quote] I can accept that answer easily enough with the understanding that you are upset with the message and not trying to discount the act. I do find it interesting the massive condemnation of Roq and the virtual radio silence about the MK spying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kriekfreak Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1329991113' post='2926455'] I can accept that answer easily enough with the understanding that you are upset with the message and not trying to discount the act. I do find it interesting the massive condemnation of Roq and the virtual radio silence about the MK spying. [/quote] Some other people already brought up the maffia (OOC: and it's also something many people feel due to WW2 in which some of our own kind collaborated with the germans). Ratting people out is often worse than the initial crime. At least in my opinion, it's the case here. Also, this is no longer just about the spy thing. Roq (and in lesser extent Myth) have worked hard to make this thing into something more than just the act of spying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monster Posted February 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 Like I said, I don't believe in non-existent confidentiality agreements if you crap all over me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kriekfreak Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1329992133' post='2926465'] Like I said, I don't believe in non-existent confidentiality agreements if you crap all over me. [/quote] The problem with that kind of reasoning is that we didn't crap all over you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monster Posted February 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) It's mostly been MK and they're the reason you didn't have to deal with me. I haven't really outed any NG stuff. Umbrella threw me to the wolves for a lie and that's what lead to all of this. I gave 1337 another chance and he refused to apologize. I wasn't going to grovel for it. It was it's over if you apologize for all the crap you've pulled. I did say I cast my final spell, but I can always dig for more. Not hard. JoshuaR: What in the dickens were they going to do to you? Grow a pair. People liked to mock MHA for being spineless, but Umbrella is worse. You are nonsensical. I already debunked most of what you have to say before. Don't know why you repeat lies. Haha. Your continued prizing of idle talk over an actually reciprocral relationship is hilarious. Actually, no JA and Raken had full access to MHA the entire time and refused to interact, essentially. JA has even gone on the record saying he wanted MHA cancelled before that. If I make a channel and I put all of our gov in it, they're supposed to do something other than circlejerk with GOONS and MK 24/7 The funniest thing of all is Umbrella continued to do non-sanctioned tech deals with MHA and would complain about them being late. Edited February 23, 2012 by Roquentin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kriekfreak Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 [quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1329993301' post='2926474'] It's mostly been MK and they're the reason you didn't have to deal with me. I haven't really outed any NG stuff. Umbrella threw me to the wolves for a lie and that's what lead to all of this. I gave 1337 another chance and he refused to apologize. I wasn't going to grovel for it. It was it's over if you apologize for all the crap you've pulled. I did say I cast my final spell, but I can always dig for more. Not hard. [/quote] I don't pull 'crap'. So there is nothing to apologize for. I do what I think is right for my alliance, members and friends. And if people stand in my way of what I think is right I hold that against them (and often act upon that). If you want to logdump me, please be my guest. I've always been direct with people so I doubt you will reveal anything that people didn't know already. In that regard, I'm an open book. Sure you will probably find something I said about some people or alliances that might paint a negative image without the context of the convo and people may believe you for what you will dump or they can come to talk to me if they feel like it, I don't really care. I'm still wondering what it is that you hold against me, did you really think we liked you? Our stance wasn't a surprise to you, was it? Didn't you know we disliked those actions of you during your presidency? So why did us ignoring you make you get so angry? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monster Posted February 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 Because I was trying to be conciliatory, so I resent being ignored. It's rather minor considering MK was the major issue. You guys came out to support them here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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