Proof of Allegations

[Monster]

[quote name='Baltus' timestamp='1329268450' post='2920723']


You're talking of an alliance made of constituents who literally got rolled for you and PB, in PB-NpO War. I understand that they're different now that they are all under one banner, but they're definitely not a !@#$ alliance.


By this logic, NpO gave indirect support to VE during the VE-NpO War since we were both allied to Ragnarok at the time.
[/quote]

Um, have you not seen how they've been acting? I tried to settle past issues with them since they apparently resented me so much. arexes outright said he hated my guts the entire time we were allied. I didn't hate him. Want to know what they did? They ignored me, called me a loon to their other allies, and mocked me as much as possible.

Gre is propping up MK unless they decide not to defend TOP if TOP gets involved in a war for MK. Having to beat TOP isn't going to be fun.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Roquentin

[Augustus Autumn]

[quote name='ktarthan' timestamp='1329267848' post='2920713']
Honestly I would rather every sordid affair MK has ever been involved with be aired in public simply so we can be done with this issue in a timely manner rather than have to deal with more rank nuggets like these. You're worse than both the problem and the solution.

Edit: added a few more offending posts to the pile
[/quote]

I'm not going to disagree with you regarding the content of what I said. Considering, however, the level of discourse throughout this sordid affair including some lovely song lyrics, all angles of character assassination and general mockery going on here I don't think you're seeing anything intellectually substantial from either end with a few exceptions.

Bob and some others have made good points throughout the thread - that MK has spied on other sovereign alliances has yet to be disputed in any real way. That an act viewed at one time as utterly unacceptable is now being either lauded or ignored in favor of personal attacks. That absolutely no consistent standard will be applied here. Will any of these points matter one iota? Not if they're buried below post after mindless post of questions regarding Roq's mental stability, self-image or outright insults.

My point? Sometimes solid points need to be rehighlighted in the interest of creating visibility for those actually willing to attempt to sift this mess for something worthwhile. My apologies if you feel it's bringing the discussion down further.

[Roadie]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1329268255' post='2920720']
Like I said only I knew about it and it was pmed to me. I never acquired any spied info of my own initiative. It made me kind of uneasy but since the NSO and their allies were lying publicly, it kind of took the edge off.
[/quote]

How dare we not tell the enemy the truth in public. For that, surely our allies deserved to be spied on.

[Monster]

[quote name='Roadie' timestamp='1329268670' post='2920730']
How dare we not tell the enemy the truth in public. For that, surely our allies deserved to be spied on.
[/quote]

It wasn't my idea, so meh.

[D34th]

[quote name='Baltus' timestamp='1329268450' post='2920723']
By this logic, NpO gave indirect support to VE during the VE-NpO War since we were both allied to Ragnarok at the time.
[/quote]

Come back when you understand what "logic" means.

[Vanilla Napalm]

[quote name='Wilhelm the Demented' timestamp='1329268026' post='2920715']
He's just appealing to the people to [i]actually address the issue[/i] instead of attempting to debase one another. (Oh look, you just did it!)
[/quote]
Where did either of these things happen? He took the issue as he percieved it, applied his own opinion to it and extrapolated it. You claimed the post as an appeal to free-thought and i didn't. Doesn't mean i thought it was a bad post. Don't know how you found me stating 'it isn't A, it's B' as equivelent to 'it isn't A, and i find you to be sub-par as a person' but hell different readings i guess.

[Monster]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1329268851' post='2920733']
Come back when you understand what "logic" means.
[/quote]

Yeah, I elaborated for you. Anyone who maintains a treaty with MK or a treaty with an MK ally and will chain in is propping them up.

In addition, DH hates DT.

One of my last post on the Umbrella forums said I wanted to roll MK with Mjolnir instead of rolling Mjolnir with MK.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Roquentin

[Stewie]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1329268584' post='2920727']
Um, have you not seen how they've been acting? I tried to settle past issues with them since they apparently resented me so much. arexes outright said he hated my guts the entire time we were allied. I didn't hate him. Want to know what they did? They ignored me, called me a loon to their other allies, and mocked me as much as possible.
[/quote]

Arexes is not a Leader of NG and hasn't been for several months. And to be fair, from the stories I get about you plotting behind PC and iFOK's backs and actively ignoring their requests for assistance because it didn't fit in with your DH-NPO plan. I can see why they disliked you.

Oh, and Derwood didn't ignore you, he is on IRC once in a blue moon, his BNC idles for him so he gets logs.

Please provide me with proof members of NG called you a loon??

[ktarthan]

[quote name='Wilhelm the Demented' timestamp='1329268582' post='2920726']
I apologize.

I didn't realize MK and their allies were the only ones permitted to mindlessly post in support of their interests.

It won't happen again!
[/quote]
That's not a thing that I said. I cannot be present at all times to police the useless posts on both sides, but I do what I can. Also yours was among a few that particularly stood out to me, so you got lucky.

[hobbies0310]

Spying is bad, I agree. Now why dont you guys do something about it and attack them? If you wont do anything about it then just shut it.

[Monster]

[quote name='Stewie' timestamp='1329268950' post='2920738']
Arexes is not a Leader of NG and hasn't been for several months. And to be fair, from the stories I get about you plotting behind PC and iFOK's backs and actively ignoring their requests for assistance because it didn't fit in with your DH-NPO plan. I can see why they disliked you.

Oh, and Derwood didn't ignore you, he is on IRC once in a blue moon, his BNC idles for him so he gets logs.

Please provide me with proof members of NG called you a loon??
[/quote]

I didn't actively ignore their requests. I wrote a pretty long pm explaining what happened to you and buzz lightyear. I wanted to be able to use a full alliance to help PC with STA and in order to do that, I needed to have NV handled before Argent could declare on STA. Hm, this is starting to tie into the TOP story, too. You see, PC and iFOK don't care about strategy, they just want to throw everything at once when the other side is keeping the big guns in reserve. Even Impero knew it wasn't a good idea to split Umbrella up and all plans made were joint. GOONS did not want to go in without DH. I would have been fine with them helping one of the two.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Roquentin

[Stewie]

Ok, that deals with the alliances hitting PC.

What about the 7 alliances hitting iFOK? Why not help them out?

[Seerow]

[quote name='hobbies0310' timestamp='1329269042' post='2920740']
Spying is bad, I agree. Now why dont you guys do something about it and attack them? If you wont do anything about it then just shut it.
[/quote]

But Roq is in Sparta, who is uninvolved, and have no motive to get involved except for Roq. Even if they did get involved, can you imagine Sparta trying to declare war on MK? We'd get about 12 wars declared on us, then 80% of the alliance would hit peace mode.

[supercoolyellow]

[quote name='hobbies0310' timestamp='1329269042' post='2920740']
Spying is bad, I agree. Now why dont you guys do something about it and attack them? If you wont do anything about it then just shut it.
[/quote]

UPN and NSO are in no place to be attacking MK, to do so would be just foolhardy. That is no reason though that some people would be upset about this.

[D34th]

[quote name='hobbies0310' timestamp='1329269042' post='2920740']
Spying is bad, I agree. Now why dont you guys do something about it and attack them? If you wont do anything about it then just shut it.
[/quote]

The good and old "do something about it" is priceless, mainly when coming from ODN.

I'll tell you one thing and mark my words, when someone decides that they have NS enough to do something about it and MK day comes, your alliance will be one of the first rats to abandon the ship.

[Roadie]

[quote name='Stewie' timestamp='1329269182' post='2920742']
Ok, that deals with the alliances hitting PC.

What about the 7 alliances hitting iFOK? Why not help them out?
[/quote]

Because it was poor strategy for the larger goal.

[Monster]

[quote name='Stewie' timestamp='1329269182' post='2920742']
Ok, that deals with the alliances hitting PC.

What about the 7 alliances hitting iFOK? Why not help them out?
[/quote]

UPN didn't really do offensive decs and GOD, R&R, and CMEA dec'd on them. That's one. TIO was handled by Hydra. Two. IAA was the only problematic one on iFOK and we got RIA to do it because Fark was too busy being really !@#$ allies to hit IAA. TLW and some others were handled by Athens.

Oh crap. I knew I wasn't supposed to criticize Fark anymore, but I still don't like what they did in that war.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Roquentin

[Stewie]

Strategies can change...

[pezstar]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1329266684' post='2920687']
The central point here seems to be that [b]MK spied on several alliances[/b] (at least UPN and NSO from the screenshots). This is not being denied, MK instead relying on character assassination and deflection to try to get people to ignore it. Okay, this particular example is from January 2011, but the individuals involved are still present and in relatively senior roles in MK (bros is forum admin and lebubu is a Prince), so there's no particular reason to think that the spying has not continued to the present day (and Roq outright accuses them of doing this more recently).

Let's just put that out again. MK demonstrably spied on at least two alliances. This goes far beyond what, for example, NpO did to get rolled by VE. Any alliance which retains support for MK is supporting spying, something which would make most of them blatant hypocrites.

Now, there's also the question of how many other people and alliances were complicit in the spying, of whom Roq himself was obviously one. But that should not distract us from the core point that MK has been proved to carry out spying on other alliances, something which is a stone wall CB and which would cause any half-decent alliance to reconsider relations with them.

If it's true that bros either abused admin access or set up back doors or took database backups and used them for intel, then that is particularly despicable, because he advertises himself as a trusted member of the community doing a service. [OOC]And claims it's outside the IC political arena.[/OOC] But that's not proved, all that's proved is that he was acquiring intel from these boards for MK.
[/quote]


A problem with all this is that the currently proven to have been spied on alliances are in no position to do anything about the spying... at least not right now. We've all seen people hold their CBs for years and strike when the treaty web favors them in the fight, and I suspect that someday, MK will end up paying for this in some way, but as it stands, they are welcome to do as they please with no one to stop them.

[Roadie]

[quote name='Seerow' timestamp='1329269224' post='2920744']
But Roq is in Sparta, who is uninvolved, and have no motive to get involved except for Roq. Even if they did get involved, can you imagine Sparta trying to declare war on MK? We'd get about 12 wars declared on us, then 80% of the alliance would hit peace mode.
[/quote]

MK are so bad anymore that I'd honestly place my money on Sparta where I to get a decent spread.

[Monster]

Yes, but blowing the wad on STA or IAA doesn't make sense.

In actuality, the initial plan for STA was Athens/Argent but we were worried about NV countering them and we thought with the Brig/wf configuration, NV would stay out. They ended up hitting wf so it was all for moot and we should have gone with Athens/Argent. wf couldn't fight and that's why STA was problematic for PC, but already having like 8 mil NS on STA and then wanting Umbrella AND GOONS on them was unreasonable.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Roquentin

[Zoomzoomzoom]

[quote name='Roadie' timestamp='1329269428' post='2920751']
MK are so bad anymore that I'd honestly place my money on Sparta where I to get a decent spread.
[/quote]

You're suggesting MK is somehow bad because of what exactly?

[ktarthan]

[quote name='Augustus Autumn' timestamp='1329268605' post='2920728']
I'm not going to disagree with you regarding the content of what I said. Considering, however, the level of discourse throughout this sordid affair including some lovely song lyrics, all angles of character assassination and general mockery going on here I don't think you're seeing anything intellectually substantial from either end with a few exceptions.

Bob and some others have made good points throughout the thread - that MK has spied on other sovereign alliances has yet to be disputed in any real way. That an act viewed at one time as utterly unacceptable is now being either lauded or ignored in favor of personal attacks. That absolutely no consistent standard will be applied here. Will any of these points matter one iota? Not if they're buried below post after mindless post of questions regarding Roq's mental stability, self-image or outright insults.

My point? Sometimes solid points need to be rehighlighted in the interest of creating visibility for those actually willing to attempt to sift this mess for something worthwhile. My apologies if you feel it's bringing the discussion down further.
[/quote]
There is a clear difference between lauding a post and highlighting its strengths and whatnot, as that itself can add to the discussion. But putting words into the opposition's mouth (justified or not (I say not, but I don't care enough to argue it)) is one of the most annoying possible ways to do so.

[Monster]

[quote name='Zoomzoomzoom' timestamp='1329269671' post='2920754']
You're suggesting MK is somehow bad because of what exactly?
[/quote]

I mean, have you been ignoring Vol Navy's posts? MK is a paper tiger. WAE 2012.

[pezstar]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1329269496' post='2920753']
Yes, but blowing the wad on STA or IAA doesn't make sense.

In actuality, the initial plan for STA was Athens/Argent but we were worried about NV countering them and we thought with the Brig/wf configuration, NV would stay out. They ended up hitting wf so it was all for moot and we should have gone with Athens/Argent. wf couldn't fight and that's why STA was problematic for PC, but already having like 8 mil NS on STA and then wanting Umbrella AND GOONS on them was unreasonable.
[/quote]

We MIGHT have had a half dozen nations in Umbrella range anyway.