Proof of Allegations

[Emphix]

so.... is anyone going to roll MK?

[Ardus]

[quote name='Emphix' timestamp='1329274207' post='2920824']
so.... is anyone going to roll MK?
[/quote]
I haven't approved any such measures, so no.

[Charles Stuart]

[quote name='Emphix' timestamp='1329274207' post='2920824']
so.... is anyone going to roll MK?
[/quote]

Im waiting on MK attacking Sparta actually. I am surprised it hasn't happened yet though I am sure there must be a reason why it hasn't....

[deth2munkies]

Kzopp, I think you're overestimating it a bit.

I really don't think the current power structure is going out without a sweeping change in philosophy regarding alliance politics, and it's more likely everyone will get bored and whither off the face of Bob before that happens.

I and others championed several political theory arguments during the reign of the NPO, not so much because I (I say "I" because I can't speak for others who argued the same way) wanted them to change thus, but because it provided an interesting counterargument to the current power structure. Among them were the emphasis on friendships, the emphasis on simplifying the complex political arrangements that people had built, and the emphasis on expressing grievances through force. These were all very interesting views on politics and lent themselves well to establishing allies to overthrow the established power structure, which made them simple and easy to adopt for that purpose.

The problem was that these philosophies do not lend themselves well to a ruling class. Without all of the political barriers, complex language, and necessity for reasons behind going to war; we find ourselves in a one-sided political state without a chance to galvanize a resistance with a rallying cry for simpler times. Arguing for the opposite is STILL met with backlash from those that fought for these ideals in the first place without really thinking about them, so it's impossible to get a large enough resistance movement through those. Either someone needs to come up with something new, enough people need to become disgusted with the new ways, or the ruling class needs to change their line before something big can happen.

This is a mere bump in the road, only the people whose servers are directly in bros's care will really be bothered by this, spying is one of the things that was once thought unacceptable, but was adopted as a "freedom fighting" technique that was good when used for the right reasons and/or a natural thing that everyone does. Trying to make outrage over it is nowhere near as easy as it was 3-4 years ago.

[Drai]

[quote name='Roadie' timestamp='1329273856' post='2920820']
Assigning targets did not mean your nations performed, they were largely turtles (Not talking about 30k nations - up to 50k at the beginning - where we had you outnumbered). Upper tier I'm sure everyone knows we used that super awesome Legion strategy so there really isn't much to talk about there other than the few we did have out got sent packing in a big hurry largely by Umbrella, not MK - though that could be due to the insane activity levels of Um. Once they joined the few others we had out in 50k range they all encountered poor resistance. The offensive declarations (against TPF) weren't there like they had been in the previous fight and many didn't run attacks, etc. It's not like MK nations don't know what they're doing, we know full well they do, but for some reason didn't care to do it.

Not of this is intended to compare penis sizes or to call MK names. It's just to say that the MK of today aint nothing special.
[/quote]I assigned targets to people who I knew were generally active and had fought before. I'm sure we had a few nations in the first round or two that didn't sign on every day but after the mass-targeting rounds we were able to be selective. I think you're vastly overplaying a few mediocre/poor opponents you faced and trying to extrapolate it to our whole military.

And MK declared far more wars on Legion in the upper tier than Umbrella did so I don't know where you get the idea that they were insanely active and we weren't (seriously, I had a couple MK nations stealing Umbrella targets because they were still available 1-2 days after being posted). This just makes me even more skeptical of your claims.


[quote name='Roadie' timestamp='1329274202' post='2920823']
Just caught this edit, sorry about not including it in my previous reply. Vol didn't need to go to PM regularly is what he's saying there. He could have but there was little point in it.
[/quote]
Yes he did because he said he wasn't able to buy nukes because he only got into peace mode twice.

[Kzoppistan]

[quote name='deth2munkies' timestamp='1329274469' post='2920829']snip[/quote]

A great reply, and I don't really disagree, which is why I said this unveiling of MK's duplicitous nature is only the seed rather than the catalyst. It would take quite a while for there to be any sort of "counter-revolution" to form.

(Edit: Despite Roq's efforts to hurry it along. But, *shrug* who knows, the people are fickle)

One, because the core powers are not quite as centralized as they were in NPO's era, and two, there isn't a narrative to begin drawing others together like what Vox began instituting and was capitalized on by the Karma forces.

But I do know this, in regards to human nature it is almost impossible to resist the lure of exercising one's power upon the weaker when it is unfettered and that the methods required to keep the growing opposition, disenfranchised by not being in power, at bay involves acts that increasingly sully the reputation of those in power.

So either the political landscape will shift again in a more gradual way, or it will crystallize into the two party conflict resulting in a similar ending as Karma.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Kzoppistan

[Monster]

[quote name='Emphix' timestamp='1329274207' post='2920824']
so.... is anyone going to roll MK?
[/quote]


Well, we're going to need you to help out. Up until I decided to fire this volley, you were the next ones on the chopping block. I extended the olive branch and chefjoe seemed skeptical. I meant to go to DT as well, but I haven't been able to get them at the right time.

In addition, there's also the matter of NSO and UPN having a right to my head. I'm willing to turn myself over if that's what they want, but they're the only ones.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Roquentin

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1329268111' post='2920717']
'Indirect support' means practically nothing though, every alliance gives that to every other.
[/quote]
No. Only alliances that maintain their supportive treaties. TOP is to MK as TOP was to NPO; you knew going into PF, you know it today, you're at war for them. You don't want to be part of this Doom House !@#$ anymore? You've got two options: Leave PF, kick TOP out of PF. You can be damn sure TOP does not give a !@#$ not just about what Bob Janova thinks, but what Grämlins thinks. You can pontificate, you can whinge--and you know I love ya, Bob--but at the end of the day your NS is behind it, or it isn't.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Schattenmann

[Kzoppistan]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1329275633' post='2920836']
No. Only alliances that maintain their supportive treaties. TOP is to MK as TOP was to NPO; you knew going into PF, you know it today, you're at war for them. You don't want to be part of this MK !@#$ anymore? [b]You've got two options: Leave PF, kick TOP out of PF.[/b] You can be damn sure TOP does not give a !@#$ not just about what Bob Janova thinks, but what Grämlins thinks. You can pontificate, you can whinge--and you know I love ya, Bob--but at the end of the day your NS is behind it, or it isn't.
[/quote]

Psh, ha, TOP is PF. The rest are interchangeable.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Kzoppistan

[Monster]

So, Valhalla, Dark Templar, and allies, will you leave us out to dry or step up to the plate?

[Seerow]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1329276455' post='2920844']
So, Valhalla, Dark Templar, and allies, will you leave us out to dry or step up to the plate?
[/quote]

I'm confused, are you asking for them to step up and attack us? If so I'm sorry I ever doubted you, you really are a good friend to me

[trimm]

[quote name='Kzoppistan' timestamp='1329275730' post='2920840']
Psh, ha, TOP is PF. The rest are interchangeable.
[/quote]

How little you understand us.

[Monster]

[quote name='Seerow' timestamp='1329276728' post='2920845']
I'm confused, are you asking for them to step up and attack us? If so I'm sorry I ever doubted you, you really are a good friend to me
[/quote]

No, right now, you are exploring options to attack Sparta. Basically asking for Nagasaki. I will step up to the plate.

[chefjoe]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1329276455' post='2920844']
So, Valhalla, Dark Templar, and allies, will you leave us out to dry or step up to the plate?
[/quote]

How did we get to be on your bugle call for help?

Roq here's my .02

You and every person whom shared that intel bros(and who knows whom else) gathered are cheating spies. Every single one of you not only broke trust but show yourselves as complete hypocrits by using such dishonest tactics, hell some of you even used spying as a CB during the time period you and yours were still doing far worse.

I really dont get why you think im foolish to be 'skeptical' as you called me, when all I have seen is everyone involved in this as dishonest liars. TBH not being skeptical would seem foolish.

Edited February 15, 2012 by chefjoe

[Kzoppistan]

[quote name='trimm' timestamp='1329276839' post='2920848']
How little you understand us.
[/quote]

Well, as a vassal state, I don't expect you to act of your own volition. TOP, however, would have a created a bloc even if you weren't around. No offense, Argent are one of the better allies out there, but you are more comfortable letting others take the lead. Don't worry, I'm sure your relationship with TOP will ensure your inclusion in what ever plans for the future they might have.

[Monster]

I don't really remember using anything like that as a CB. That sounds more like Athens. Yes, I've been a bad guy. I'm willing go down with them if it's necessary, but I'm giving everyone a chance to shake things up.

[trimm]

[quote name='Kzoppistan' timestamp='1329277219' post='2920852']
Well, as a vassal state, I don't expect you to act of your own volition. TOP, however, would have a created a bloc even if you weren't around. No offense, Argent are one of the better allies out there, but you are more comfortable letting others take the lead. Don't worry, I'm sure your relationship with TOP will ensure your inclusion in what ever plans for the future they might have.
[/quote]

Right, so you don't understand us even a little bit. Got it. Thanks for clearing that up.

[Monster]

Try as you might, but I will make it hurt and MK will have some real damage to baw about.

[Lord Levistus]

Roq, I like you, even though we've been on different sides of the web.

Calling Valhalla out in public like this isn't going to make us any quicker to back you.

MK wants us dead? No kidding. Imagine that. We never guessed. We're well aware of the situation, and we have been for quite some time. Know who we hate? SPARTA. (there are others, but SPARTA still holds a special place in many of our hearts, sorry, Tyga) We were willing to entertain you, and talk to you, don't presume to have our friendship as an alliance because we're cordial.

I'm actually saddened although hardly surprised to see the truth of Bros in this thread. I'm sure someday it will come back to haunt MK, but politically they're untouchable atm and everyone knows it. You would have been better off using this information in the back rooms and eating away at MK's support web than to try and take them on like this head on.

[Schad]

[quote name='Kzoppistan' timestamp='1329277219' post='2920852']
Well, as a vassal state, I don't expect you to act of your own volition. TOP, however, would have a created a bloc even if you weren't around. No offense, Argent are one of the better allies out there, but you are more comfortable letting others take the lead. Don't worry, I'm sure your relationship with TOP will ensure your inclusion in what ever plans for the future they might have.
[/quote]

Yeah, but you're missing that it isn't always a matter of political clout/size, even if theoretically it should be. There are some, uh, strong, personalities in PF.

[Vol Navy]

[quote name='Drai' timestamp='1329272553' post='2920810']


@volnavy, we took heavy damage that war because we were often fighting 3v1s or 3v2s in the upper tiers which puts us at a nuclear disadvantage. Also how did you have an easier time getting to peace mode than Rafael if you only were in peace mode twice throughout nearly 3 months. Your post is filled with stats that are proving a different point than what you're wanting them to say.
[/quote]


Rafael was staggered quite a bit though out the war. I think he finally made it to PM late in the war. I was not countered. I was able to move in and out of PM when needed. I don't remember exact the number of times, but probably 2-3 times. No MK counters for me after the first round. You are the only member of MK that countered me the entire war and that was the second day in the first round. Later in the war I didn't even bother with going into PM because there was no need. No one from that side was willing to declare aggressive wars against me until a GOON finally did very late. This was fairly common in the 20-60k range. MK members who weren't in PM were swamped and staggered fairly successfully.

[Kzoppistan]

[quote name='Schad' timestamp='1329277687' post='2920857']
Yeah, but you're missing that it isn't always a matter of political clout/size, even if theoretically it should be. There are some, uh, strong, personalities in PF.
[/quote]

Mm, I suppose that's true. It seems a lack of breakfast makes a nation ruler quite snippy sometimes. I retract my statement.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Kzoppistan

[Vol Navy]

[quote name='Zoomzoomzoom' timestamp='1329272473' post='2920806']
Hardly an argument for paper tiger status.

That's like saying TPF is still a paper tiger after being drained from everyone fleeing Slayer. Don't even try to argue you folks weren't a paper tiger after PC, the NEW members, and D34th's AA all left. TPF was absolute !@#$ after that.

Alliances reach their peaks. It has happened with alliances like TPF, TOP, and MK. Are you really willing to argue that these alliances all suck though? In comparison to their glory days they are all weaker, but MK and TOP are still nimble and organized fighting forces. I really can't judge how to categorize TPF because it was never in the same 'elite' category as TOP/MK.
[/quote]


I honestly have no idea what this has to do at all with MK being so inactive during the DH/PB war that a good 25% of the alliance deleted due to inactivity after taking nukes for 25 days.

I have never fought TOP at all, but hearing from those who have, that level of inactivity isn't an issue when fighting them.

I know first hand from fighting MK, it was a major issue for MK.

[Emphix]

I hope this 'Nagasaki' thing will be good, like very good, superbly good, [i]fabulously[/i] good.

[Monster]

Also, a defensive war is much easier for me. The Val/DT thing applied to an offensive war. Bring it. I'm not sure how you guys are going to manage it. I wish you the best of luck. Even if it's a losing war, I'm not afraid.

You've barked up the wrong tree and there will be consequences.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Roquentin