King Louis the II Posted December 13, 2011 Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 (edited) I posted this in our own forums as a suggestion to our gov (I am an advisor) this was on November 3. [quote]I think it could be a good idea to give medals to people that are not from sparta but contributed to our alliance. This could be announced in OWF amd show recognition for these people. I suggest: Londo Molari [u][b]OsRavan[/b][/u] Antoine Roquentin (R.I.P) other possible names: 905, Ego, Duncan and maybe Van Hoo.[/quote] Thank god we are slow in processing this type of things added: The R.I.P. joke was because he deleted. Edited December 13, 2011 by King Louis the II Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jgoods45 Posted December 13, 2011 Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 [quote name='Lukapaka' timestamp='1323788975' post='2876534'] Myth, Bush's question was rhetorical. I think his point is the same as mine. They were only willing to activate certain treaties, and yes, in the end C&G would roll together. My question is why does ODN sign treaties outside of C&G, if the only chains they're going to follow are TLR's? [/quote] If Sparta or R&R were attacked directly at the beginning of this conflict, you would of had our ODN's or INT's support and therefore, the rest of CnG's. Instead, you all allow your ally to attack one of TLR's ally in an aggressive matter. I seen nothing but "Hail Fark!" and "Give them Hell" in their DoW thread from numerous Spartans. One Spartan would proceed to call us out over this ODP. How the Hell would be not defend and therefore swinging C&G to stand beside us? Personally, I have no regrets about this war and it allowed me to see what Sparta truly is. A bunch of whiny little !@#$%*es. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandellav Posted December 13, 2011 Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 [quote name='Lukapaka' timestamp='1323788347' post='2876522'] You can paint this as the result of Fark's decision all you'd like. C&G claims they would have preferred the neutral route, up until Fark's attack. However, before the attack, Os had already made it abundantly clear what side of the Polar conflict they would be fighting on when it came to blows. ODP/MDoAP/blocs... none of it mattered, because ODN was only willing to accept the activation of any treaty that didn't conflict with TLR/GATO/MK agenda. Hell, we could have been pre-empted day one and ODN would have sent an apology and explanation about why they weren't defending. ODN may feel justified in their attack on MHA, but to Sparta it's as bad as them rolling us. [/quote] Did I ever claim CnG neutrality? Where did I do that? Can you point that out to me? You are mistaken. If someone was stupid enough to pre-empt Sparta, ODN and TLR would be defending you right now. If you think that's not true, you don't understand how we work. The truth is, the side that ODN and TLR belonged to because let's face it, TLR wanted to see Polar burn, knew that fact better than anyone. Isn't it surprising that Sparta and RnR were not attacked at the start of this war? That's because of CnG. Don't fool yourself. CnG protected Sparta from a direct attack. It was never an option for our "side." That's because everyone on our side knows that an direct attack on a CnG ally means that CnG defends them. And what did FARK do? A direct attack on a CnG ally. FARK forgot what CnG does when it comes to defending allies. Big mistake. It will always be a big mistake. If FARK had simply defended Polar and chosen different counters, this never would have happened. When this war started, I thought TLR would be fighting MHA, honestly. Instead, FARK chose NPO and TLR had to hit FARK. FARK forced CnG's hand. If you are refusing to see that because it's an ODP, then you do not understand the level of commitment TLR makes with all of its allies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Apocalypse Posted December 13, 2011 Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 [quote name='Lukapaka' timestamp='1323788975' post='2876534'] Myth, Bush's question was rhetorical. I think his point is the same as mine. They were only willing to activate certain treaties, and yes, in the end C&G would roll together. My question is why does ODN sign treaties outside of C&G, if the only chains they're going to follow are TLR's? [/quote] Because nobody told them your ally was going to hit TLR's ally? I think I can safely say on behalf of everyone that nobody expected Fark (and FAN) to swoop in and attack NPO. In this instance it was TLR who they followed to war, but it could well have been Int if they went in first, or ODN themselves could have gone in first and C&G would have followed them, because that's how their bloc works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lukapaka Posted December 13, 2011 Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Jgoods45' timestamp='1323789666' post='2876547'] If Sparta or R&R were attacked directly at the beginning of this conflict, you would of had our ODN's or INT's support and therefore, the rest of CnG's. [/quote] and in [i]any[/i] other situation, C&G was against us. Even had we followed traditional chains [Fark defends Polar, Sparta defends Fark], C&G would not have had our backs. Maybe they wouldn't be fighting us, but don't pretend that C&G fighting with us was ever a real possibility. Edited December 13, 2011 by Lukapaka Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandellav Posted December 13, 2011 Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 [quote name='King Louis the II' timestamp='1323789137' post='2876540'] The Fark ODP with Polar brought many discussions in XX as you can imagine. One scenario that we discussed was if Polar was attacked by C&G (despite the fact that TOP would be thousand times more likely). One thing it was clear was that Fark should not activate a OPTIONAL treaty that will make XX fight against a bloc (C&G) who we have 2 MDoAP partners. You know what, this is exactly what you did. It would be the same as ODN attacking Polar and we allowing Fark activate its ODP and we fighting against C&G. [/quote] CnG was never going to preempt Polar. It wasn't ever going to happen simply because TLR talked about it time and time again and it was decided time and time again that it was not a good move because of the strain it would put on allies. It was a fantasy for us and we're living vicariously through IRON and TOP. If CnG though did make a decision to do that, I should hope FARK would have the stones to defend an ally from such a blatant attack. And I would hope that Sparta and RnR would hit TLR so hard in response. We didn't do that because we actually have a modicum of intelligence. And it's not exactly what we did. It's not. FARK attacked our ally. I'm not going to watch my ally burn because the allies of the alliance who attacked my ally wouldn't want bloc warfare. FARK showed no intelligence with that attack and its follow through and all of XX is paying for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Apocalypse Posted December 13, 2011 Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 [quote name='Lukapaka' timestamp='1323789351' post='2876542'] But Johnny, the decision was made before Fark's pre-empt. Os didn't know where they would be fighting, but he knew it wouldn't be with us. Activating C&G was never an option, the moment TOP rolled Polar. Edit: Basically the exact same thing as with Umbrella. Except you guys hit an ODP partner instead of a blocmate, so not quite as frustrating, but equally unloyal. [/quote] Both me and Os didn't know where exactly we would be fighting but you did know where you were fighting as did the majority of our other allies and unfortunately it wasn't going to be with who you were going to be fighting for. Why this is a surprise to you I don't know because I've spoken with you guys at great length about what was going to happen this war and what we wouldn't do out of respect for you and I'm sure Os has too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandellav Posted December 13, 2011 Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 [quote name='Lukapaka' timestamp='1323790236' post='2876552'] and in [i]any[/i] other situation, C&G was against us. Even had we followed traditional chains [Fark defends Polar, Sparta defends Fark], C&G would not have had our backs. Maybe they wouldn't be fighting us, but don't pretend that C&G fighting with us was ever a real possibility. [/quote] You are fully correct on that. Is that CnG's fault, or Sparta's for their decision to stick it out with XX and it's ties to SF and Polar? In a situation where we didn't have to fight XX directly, we could have used our pressure to make sure Sparta's and RnR's interests were better served in the post war. Instead, FARK chose to throw that security away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trinite Posted December 13, 2011 Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 [quote name='Mandellav' timestamp='1323786589' post='2876511'] stuff[/quote] So if we would have pre-empted an non-CnG ally and been countered before anyone else with any level treaty with CnG got hit, then we would have had CnGs full support disregarding all other outside treaties? Either CnG is the most idiotic manipulatable bloc ever concieved, or you're lying. And you guys aren't idiots, so stop trying to spin this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lukapaka Posted December 13, 2011 Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 [quote name='Johnny Apocalypse' timestamp='1323790465' post='2876556'] Both me and Os didn't know where exactly we would be fighting but you did know where you were fighting as did the majority of our other allies and unfortunately it wasn't going to be with who you were going to be fighting for. Why this is a surprise to you I don't know because I've spoken with you guys at great length about what was going to happen this war and what we wouldn't do out of respect for you and I'm sure Os has too. [/quote] You can fight on a side and not hit my allies. The alignment did not come as a surprise, but ODN's hit on MHA, Umbrella's hit on TTK... the disregard of our loyalties and a strike on the bonds of what many considered friendships, that is what shocked my government and my membership. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WorkingClassRuler Posted December 13, 2011 Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 You're all serving someone else's goals. Stop pretending you're doing anything else but that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jgoods45 Posted December 13, 2011 Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 [quote name='Trinite' timestamp='1323790559' post='2876559'] So if we would have pre-empted an non-CnG ally and been countered before anyone else with any level treaty with CnG got hit, then we would have had CnGs full support disregarding all other outside treaties? Either CnG is the most idiotic manipulatable bloc ever concieved, or you're lying. And you guys aren't idiots, so stop trying to spin this. [/quote] There is nothing to spin when we are clearly in the right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Louis the II Posted December 13, 2011 Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 2 scenarios: A C&G member attacked Polar. Fark activates its ODP. Would XX attack C&G? No. A XX member attacked Pacifica. TLR activated its ODP. Did C&G attacked XX? Yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omniscient1 Posted December 13, 2011 Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 [quote name='King Louis the II' timestamp='1323783835' post='2876499'] I wish we were allied to FOK instead. [/quote] So that they could pick out a really small target and then !@#$%* so they don't get countered. FOK is soooo great! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Louis the II Posted December 13, 2011 Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1323791044' post='2876567'] So that they could pick out a really small target and then !@#$%* so they don't get countered. FOK is soooo great! [/quote] I was referring at Fok defending [s]CSN[/s] [u][b]R&R[/b][/u] despite having a blocmate (NG) in the war. edit:corrected Edited December 13, 2011 by King Louis the II Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jgoods45 Posted December 13, 2011 Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 [quote name='WorkingClassRuler' timestamp='1323790840' post='2876562'] You're all serving someone else's goals. Stop pretending you're doing anything else but that. [/quote] Indeed, our goal is to provide a proper defence for the New Pacific Order. Done. Another goal is to ensure the security of ourselves and our allies who went in on our behalf. Done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IYIyTh Posted December 13, 2011 Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 [quote name='Mandellav' timestamp='1323790539' post='2876558'] You are fully correct on that. Is that CnG's fault, or Sparta's for their decision to stick it out with XX and it's ties to SF and Polar? In a situation where we didn't have to fight XX directly, we could have used our pressure to make sure Sparta's and RnR's interests were better served in the post war. Instead, FARK chose to throw that security away. [/quote] Well, at least you admit the real issue here. Minus the part about Fark being the cause of the war. Or the part where a bunch of alliances currently being pressured because they have questions about their willingness to honor treaties could be considered as being able to afford protection to alliances whose allies they recently not only helped roll, but helped plan the rolling for. Or the part where Fark is at fault for not activiating the preferred set of chains for your liking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandellav Posted December 13, 2011 Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 [quote name='Trinite' timestamp='1323790559' post='2876559'] So if we would have pre-empted an non-CnG ally and been countered before anyone else with any level treaty with CnG got hit, then we would have had CnGs full support disregarding all other outside treaties? Either CnG is the most idiotic manipulatable bloc ever concieved, or you're lying. And you guys aren't idiots, so stop trying to spin this. [/quote] Not quite. Your "what if" scenario lacks any and all context. Elaborate upon it and I can give you a better answer. And I am not a liar. Everyone who knows me knows I'm not a liar. I built all my relationships based on strait shooting. Spin is part of the game though, I just choose to spin with the truth as I see it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omniscient1 Posted December 13, 2011 Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 [quote name='King Louis the II' timestamp='1323791149' post='2876570'] I was referring at Fok defending CSN despite having a blocmate (NG) in the war. [/quote] When did FOK defend CSN? They're not even allied. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IYIyTh Posted December 13, 2011 Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 [quote name='WorkingClassRuler' timestamp='1323790840' post='2876562'] You're all serving someone else's goals. Stop pretending you're doing anything else but that. [/quote] It's almost is as if they think they're clever enough that no one has noticed. Ignore the elephant!. Giant. Pink. Elephant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devilyn Caster Posted December 13, 2011 Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 [quote name='Trinite' timestamp='1323790559' post='2876559'] So if we would have pre-empted an non-CnG ally and been countered before anyone else with any level treaty with CnG got hit, then we would have had CnGs full support disregarding all other outside treaties? Either CnG is the most idiotic manipulatable bloc ever concieved, or you're lying. And you guys aren't idiots, so stop trying to spin this. [/quote] Here's what you are missing. If you pre-empted a non-CnG ally, then you would have had support from ODN. That support would have made countering/attacking you, and therefore XX, more difficult. You would have made it through the war without getting dogpiled, and possibly reduced the overall damage to your blocmates and therefore been more successful in defending them. Instead, you did nothing, allowed Fark to nail NPO, and then !@#$%*ed and moaned when we caught MHA planning to attack our other ally or even ourselves. Don't kid yourself that the Sparta-ODN relationship is more important than CnG. You're just setting yourself up for failure with that line of thinking. If you need any more explanation, I can probably draw a picture for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Louis the II Posted December 13, 2011 Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 [quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1323791238' post='2876576'] When did FOK defend CSN? They're not even allied. [/quote] Sorry R&R. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jgoods45 Posted December 13, 2011 Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 [quote name='King Louis the II' timestamp='1323790949' post='2876566'] 2 scenarios: A C&G member attacked Polar. Fark activates its ODP. Would XX attack C&G? No. A XX member attacked Pacifica. TLR activated its ODP. Did C&G attacked XX? Yes. [/quote] Okay. So in the first scenario, if TLR hit Polar and Fark activates their ODP with Polar and hits TLR, how would that not put C&G at TLR's side? Second scenario, Yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandellav Posted December 13, 2011 Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 [quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1323791185' post='2876573'] Well, at least you admit the real issue here. Minus the part about Fark being the cause of the war. Or the part where a bunch of alliances currently being pressured because they have questions about their willingness to honor treaties could be considered as being able to afford protection to alliances whose allies they recently not only helped roll, but helped plan the rolling for. Or the part where Fark is at fault for not activiating the preferred set of chains for your liking. [/quote] How did FARK not cause the NPO/FARK war? Did I miss something there? Is NPO tied to TOP/IRON in any way? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omniscient1 Posted December 13, 2011 Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 [quote name='King Louis the II' timestamp='1323791337' post='2876580'] Sorry R&R. [/quote] oh ok, I was referring to that too. Instead of helping their allies, they just picked out some small alliance to hit so that they could look cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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