So here I sit

[Leet Guy]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1318001931' post='2819725']
Woah, Hoss. I ctrl+F'ed "once" and you were definitely the one that said "once again", not me. Same with "aggressive."
Wu Tang made a lousy argument centered on MK, I addressed his argument. Wu Tang says you're the most influential alliance and that's why MK's influence must be addressed in any reply to Wu Tang. And what has MK done with its influence? You've used it to create a Pax Pacifica setup just liek the one Ardus prospered under as Lord of the Entente while he was busy cuddling with Daddy Moo and Papa Sponge. An apt pupil, and it's a shame that MK went from laughing their asses off at Ardus and VE to crowning him prince so that he could perpetuate the system that pushed MK to the brink using MK as his muscle.

But since you brought it up, it is patently idiotic for you to decry me--or anyone--for labeling MK as aggressive or as puppetmasters (neither of which I have done, by the way, but that didn't stop you from reading what you wanted to read instead of what I wrote) when your Prince Ardus has laid out his philosophy of [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=93789"]Creative Annihilation[/url], the use of unwarranted reps, disbandments, and extreme war to force the disbandment of alliances which are deemed unfit to exist. And who is the judge? Naturally, MK.
[/quote]

You are now the one making some rather interesting assumptions as well. You seem to be pointing to Ardus as if he has the defining control of power in MK, when Archon still remains our King (and yes, he does actually keep an eye on us despite his lack of public presence). More importantly, lebubu remains the Crown Prince ahead of Ardus. Ardus may have big words, but they are not to be feared as the final line from MK, nor should his past thoughts and actions from Viridia be transferred to his current goals in the game. His creative annihilation? I think it more simply speaks to the benefit of rising up from the ashes, not necessarily a statement of his desired course of action. Why would he seek to create the resolve for an enemy?

And really, it's not hard at all to connect the dots from "rather than changing things to create a more dynamic world" to mean that you suggested we held the sole power of alpha dog. And I'd [i]love[/i] to hear you point out a time where MK has made "use of unwarranted reps, disbandments, and extreme war to force the disbandment of alliances which are deemed unfit to exist."

Edited October 7, 2011 by Leet Guy

[Unknown Smurf]

[quote name='Leet Guy' timestamp='1318000999' post='2819708']
Really? Because Cager and a few others are talking out of their ass you're going to somehow paint this as aggressive MK and us "once again" making the puppets dance? Take a look at the user and their role in the Kingdom before making such brash statements, Schatt. You point to a couple of my members and then ring it up as MK creating a Pax Pacifica world, but I hardly see how the "evidence" has led you to such a presumption.
[/quote]


[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1318001931' post='2819725']
Woah, Hoss. I ctrl+F'ed "once" and you were definitely the one that said "once again", not me. Same with "aggressive."
Wu Tang made a lousy argument centered on MK, I addressed his argument. Wu Tang says you're the most influential alliance and that's why MK's influence must be addressed in any reply to Wu Tang. And what has MK done with its influence? You've used it to create a Pax Pacifica setup just liek the one Ardus prospered under as Lord of the Entente while he was busy cuddling with Daddy Moo and Papa Sponge. An apt pupil, and it's a shame that MK went from laughing their asses off at Ardus and VE to crowning him prince so that he could perpetuate the system that pushed MK to the brink using MK as his muscle.

But since you brought it up, it is patently idiotic for you to decry me--or anyone--for labeling MK as aggressive or as puppetmasters (neither of which I have done, by the way, but that didn't stop you from reading what you wanted to read instead of what I wrote) when your Prince Ardus has laid out his philosophy of [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=93789"]Creative Annihilation[/url], the use of unwarranted reps, disbandments, and extreme war to force the disbandment of alliances which are deemed unfit to exist. And who is the judge? Naturally, MK.
[/quote]

I do love having you on our side for once, but I think painting all MK members with one stroke is wrong.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Leet Guy' timestamp='1318002767' post='2819736']
You are now the one making some rather interesting assumptions as well. You seem to be pointing to Ardus as if he has the defining control of power in MK, when Archon still remains our King (and yes, he does actually keep an eye on us despite his lack of public presence). More importantly, lebubu remains the Crown Prince ahead of Ardus. Ardus may have big words, but they are not to be feared as the final line from MK, nor should his past thoughts and actions from Viridia be transferred to his current goals in the game. His creative annihilation? I think it more simply speaks to the benefit of rising up from the ashes, not necessarily a statement of his desired course of action. Why would he seek to create the resolve for an enemy?

And really, it's not hard at all to connect the dots from "rather than changing things to create a more dynamic world" to mean that you suggested we held the sole power of alpha dog. And I'd [i]love[/i] to hear you point out a time where MK has made "use of unwarranted reps, disbandments, and extreme war to force the disbandment of alliances which are deemed unfit to exist."
[/quote]
I make no assumptions, everything contained in my post has been sourced back to your Prince, with links. I also refer to [url="http://cntalkshow.podomatic.com/entry/2011-08-10T20_04_57-07_00"]CN Talkshow season 2, episode 11[/url], during which Ardus has made clear his belief that we are nearing the end of things, and his intentions to "see what [he] can get away with before the clock turns off" (22:00). He discusses his role in MK beginning at 12:15. ". . . we've developed a sort-of bi-umvirate structure. [Lebubu] takes care of all the internal affairs, and I focus entirely on foreign affairs . . . I'm a scheming !@#$%^&, so foreign affairs is where I belong."
His comments in the leaked Fok thread show that he is actively engaged in the long-game planning, advocating an "anti-SF" path, and relegating Mjolnir to irrelevence.

Any impression I have of MK's plans and structure is based on the claims and essays of its Prince Ardus, and he is under the impression that he is in charge of MK's world-stage path while Lebubu takes care of IA. If that is not the case, it isn't me you need to talk to, but perhaps it's time for MK to have a pow-wow.

Edited October 7, 2011 by Schattenmann

[Sigrun Vapneir]

[quote name='Wu Tang Clan' timestamp='1317921520' post='2818651']
This is where I disagree with you.

Not too long ago a coalition led by NPO fought to disband LUE. A while later, a coalition led by NPO forced extremely harsh reps on MK. This didn't ruin the game... It actually ended up making it better. MK came back with a vengeance, and became one of the most influential alliances in the game. The story repeats itself with Genmay, GOONS, FARK, and so on, and I'm sure it will continue to in the future.[/quote]

Selective memory is a wonderful thing.

A small fragment of LUE, with other people, founded MK. And yes, MK managed to survive and eventually thrive. But how many nations were lost forever in the process? Umbrella is not Genmay, just ask them. Again, a small fragment of the old alliance survived and eventually thrived, but many, many nations were lost forever in the process.

Even worse, many other groups you dont mention didnt survive in any form or fragment.

It's perfectly true that those with indominatible will, deep preparations, and sufficient time, can survive anything that can be thrown at them. I am like that. Perhaps you are like that. Perhaps a few others. But certainly the vast majority of nations do not fall into that category. If we make this a world where only those like us can have any fun, it is going to be a very small and lonely planet.

[quote name='Charles Stuart' timestamp='1317972091' post='2819547']
You seem to be a tad confused. MK are under no obligation to enter this conflict, you however are. If anyone should be pushing any buttons then it should be NpO.
[/quote]

Spoken like someone who cant be bothered to read a treaty before pontificating on the obligations arising from it.

Either that or you are quite aware you are wrong, and just dont care about accuracy when it gets in the way of your agenda.

Care to enlighten us as to which is the case?

[Wu Tang Clan]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1318000229' post='2819697']
Pretty bold words for a guy that belongs to an alliance born from \m/'s disbandment.

Your arguments are bad. MK's influence for influence's sake doesn't do anythign for anyone except MK. Their use of it hasn't made things better, for that matter, and even in this thread it's Cager, from MK, complaining about boredom and stagnation, and it's always MK doing that (http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=97781). Rather than changing things to create a more dynamic world, they have stuck to the Pax Pacifica status quo.
[/quote]

A disbandment is but an evolution. \m/ still lives in the members that were once a part of it. As does the first GOONS, LUE, etc etc.

As for MK's influence... I think it has helped create a game much more fun than that led by NPO. And the words of one member from MK is hardly enough evidence to prove otherwise. The political posturing has become more involved, there are more alliances taking control of their own sphere's of power. And the world is more multi-polar than ever before. Sure, treaties tie each power sphere to each other... but do you think they would hold when push comes to shove? There's no Initiative, which composed of nearly every major power in the game, there's several blocs that rival each other in strength and influence. I personally find this to be much more interesting, and much more dynamic.
[quote]
A small fragment of LUE, with other people, founded MK. And yes, MK managed to survive and eventually thrive. But how many nations were lost forever in the process? Umbrella is not Genmay, just ask them. Again, a small fragment of the old alliance survived and eventually thrived, but many, many nations were lost forever in the process.[/quote]

I never said LUE was MK, or Umbrella Genmay, or anything of the such. I was simply noting that getting beaten wasn't the end-all. Hell, oppressive reps isn't even enough to keep a good alliance down. Good alliances find a way to evolve (be it through a disbandment and restructuring by those who have the will power to lead it, or otherwise) and keep on keeping on. And I would wager more nations stuck around to seek revenge than would have stuck around otherwise. But of course, there's no way to prove that.
[quote]
Even worse, many other groups you dont mention didnt survive in any form or fragment.
[/quote]
It is not the problem of anyone but themselves for not having the dignity and dedication to remain as a group. If you can't survive a simple defeat in war then what chance did you have when internal strife strikes? Numbers mean little in this game when it comes to simply existing, and all war effects is numbers.

[Cager]

I wouldn't say I'm talking out of anything. Just illuminating the truth.

Edited October 8, 2011 by Cager

[Sephiroth]

If Tetris/NSO/NsO/BTA/OP/IAA (while receiving war aid from GATO and TLR who pledged their support) still aren't able to have a clear advantage over Legion within a day or 2, who else thinks we'll see them call in more help on oA clauses to try seeing if by bringing in more allies they'll have a better chance at taking the Paper Tiger down? In the past few would think Legion could stand their ground fighting 6 alliances who are receiving war aid from even more alliances throughout, but now I'm starting to wonder if 6 alliances will be enough and if the other side is going to need to bring in a few more alliances. Legion can easily probably hold out a week or more before needing to request any help, but I wonder how long some of these alliances fighting Legion can last.

[Sigrun Vapneir]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1318036925' post='2820312']
If Tetris/NSO/NsO/BTA/OP/IAA (while receiving war aid from GATO and TLR who pledged their support) still aren't able to have a clear advantage over Legion within a day or 2, who else thinks we'll see them call in more help on oA clauses to try seeing if by bringing in more allies they'll have a better chance at taking the Paper Tiger down?
[/quote]

Not I.

Of course I could be surprised. But no, I wouldnt bet on that happening. There's something about flinging nukes at each other for awhile that tends to engender mutual respect. The people I know in those alliances are all pretty awesome, and I dont think any of them want to take the hit to their reputation that move would involve anyway. So my guess would be that this will go on as long as it needs to for the Sith and the Legion to start talking civilly again, and then it will wind on down and clear the stage for winter.

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' timestamp='1318037620' post='2820328']
Not I.

Of course I could be surprised. But no, I wouldnt bet on that happening. There's something about flinging nukes at each other for awhile that tends to engender mutual respect. The people I know in those alliances are all pretty awesome, and I dont think any of them want to take the hit to their reputation that move would involve anyway. So my guess would be that this will go on as long as it needs to for the Sith and the Legion to start talking civilly again, and then it will wind on down and clear the stage for winter.
[/quote]
Before IAA and BTA got involved I might of agreed, but if they're already bringing in alliances on oA clauses who aren't even allied to Tetris to try winning, I'm starting to think those fighting Legion will do whatever is needed to win rather than end up with an outcome which could be seen as them losing to Legion. NSO I don't think will call in any allies, as they haven't done it yet and enjoy a good fight even if they take some damage. However others on the Tetris side I think would want to pull as many alliances on their side to attack Legion with them as possible regardless of how it might look, as minimizing their own losses and winning I think is more important than anything else to many alliances.

Edited October 8, 2011 by Methrage

[Charles Stuart]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1318036925' post='2820312']
If Tetris/NSO/NsO/BTA/OP/IAA (while receiving war aid from GATO and TLR who pledged their support) still aren't able to have a clear advantage over Legion within a day or 2, who else thinks we'll see them call in more help on oA clauses to try seeing if by bringing in more allies they'll have a better chance at taking the Paper Tiger down? In the past few would think Legion could stand their ground fighting 6 alliances who are receiving war aid from even more alliances throughout, but now I'm starting to wonder if 6 alliances will be enough and if the other side is going to need to bring in a few more alliances. Legion can easily probably hold out a week or more before needing to request any help, but I wonder how long some of these alliances fighting Legion can last.
[/quote]

I thought you were supposed to be smart or something?

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Charles Stuart' timestamp='1318041971' post='2820388']
I thought you were supposed to be smart or something?
[/quote]
Are you saying nobody on your side will bring in anymore alliances to fight The Legion? You didn't dispute anything I said, also I never said I think NSO will call anyone in. I don't know who you are, but are you suppose to have any meaning behind your posts or just seeing if you can get a response?

[Charles Stuart]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1318042646' post='2820395']
Are you saying nobody on your side will bring in anymore alliances to fight The Legion? You didn't dispute anything I said, also I never said I think NSO will call anyone in. I don't know who you are, but are you suppose to have any meaning behind your posts or just seeing if you can get a response?
[/quote]

If Legion calls more people then we call more people. Right now it is a fair fight contrary to what the resident nitwits say in order to cover up their inadequacy as allies.

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Charles Stuart' timestamp='1318052066' post='2820553']
If Legion calls more people then we call more people. Right now it is a fair fight contrary to what the resident nitwits say in order to cover up their inadequacy as allies.
[/quote]
I don't expect NSO to call more allies in, but if its a fair fight your side doesn't have a guaranteed win and it will be a battle of attrition, so we'll see if your right about the rest of the alliances on your side not calling in more people before Legion does. Although if I was Legion, I would focus more attention on some of the smaller alliances to try knocking them out of the war first, so with Legion fighting so many other alliances I doubt they'll focus full attention on NSO. As NSO won't surrender separately despite how much military pressure they might try putting on you guys.

[Voytek]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1317881660' post='2818147']
Bacause CN is a game full of double standards.
[/quote]
that's not what a double standard is sorry d34th

[Arcades057]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1318000229' post='2819697']
You mistake Arcades' motivations, he has no morals.



[/quote]

Spot on with that one. I merely delight in pointing out the swiftness in which people here lose their... [i]chutzpah[/i], let's say, when it comes down to armed confrontation.

[Facade]

[quote name='Unknown Smurf' timestamp='1317881410' post='2818140']
Legion will NOT call in its allies...
[/quote]

While this [i]may[/i] have been true when you said it, it's certainly not now.

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Facade' timestamp='1318082153' post='2820788']
While this [i]may[/i] have been true when you said it, it's certainly not now.
[/quote]
Now they've given their friends and allies enough time to see its a fight worth doing, so we'll probably see things change soon.

[Unknown Smurf]

[quote name='Facade' timestamp='1318082153' post='2820788']
While this [i]may[/i] have been true when you said it, it's certainly not now.
[/quote]


..What changed?

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Unknown Smurf' timestamp='1318084458' post='2820808']
..What changed?
[/quote]
Maybe they are going to declare on you guys? I don't know, but if more alliances did attack you and you guys called in allies in response, his comment would make sense.

[Facade]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1318085227' post='2820817']
Maybe they are going to declare on you guys? I don't know, but if more alliances did attack you and you guys called in allies in response, his comment would make sense.
[/quote]

I wasn't implying that anyone else would be attacking Legion, only that Legion has called in support from its allies.

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Facade' timestamp='1318085653' post='2820821']
I wasn't implying that anyone else would be attacking Legion, only that Legion has called in support from its allies.
[/quote]
Who have they called in support from if you're privy on the details?

Edited October 8, 2011 by Methrage

[Charles Stuart]

It would make things more interesting if they have.

Edited October 8, 2011 by Charles Stuart

[Unknown Smurf]

[quote name='Facade' timestamp='1318085653' post='2820821']
I wasn't implying that anyone else would be attacking Legion, only that Legion has called in support from its allies.
[/quote]

When?

EDIT: Do you mean the CN mods declaration of war? I know its against your horrible posts, but they aren't allied to us ..

Edited October 8, 2011 by Unknown Smurf

[Locke]

[quote name='Facade' timestamp='1318082153' post='2820788']
While this [i]may[/i] have been true when you said it, it's certainly not now.
[/quote]
Have something you'd like to share with the class?

[youwish959]

[quote name='Arcades057' timestamp='1318081932' post='2820787']
Spot on with that one. I merely delight in pointing out the swiftness in which people here lose their... [i]chutzpah[/i], let's say, when it comes down to armed confrontation.
[/quote]
Weren't you the dude who surrendered from FAN?