I'm baffled NPO

[Steelrat]

I thought it might be time to offer you some help in economics, game mechanics or more generally in building nations.

I collected some links for you:

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?a...blogid=125&

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?a...;blogid=33&

and of course

http://lycaeum.assimilator.org/

All the infos for building or rebulding Nations are in those links.

I hope this stop all those multiple topics about NPO is not able to pay the reps, is not able to rebuild etc. And Cortath either you are totally incompentent or lying but i will give you credit and say your math is propaganda. Azaghul knows his numbers and as many others calculated in numeros replies, those reps are payable at best in 2-3 months at worst in 5-6 months.

Now to the point, our banks will be dead after 2 weeks of nuclear war.

That´s a big fat greek wedding lie.

Any nation with +1billion warchest will ride out that easy. Even nations with only +500m warchest won´t have any problem to rebuild to at least 5k Infra. And do not tell the public your peace mode nations do not have that big warchests. They have.

And i know what i´m talking about, i did that. I lost about 7k Infra, thanks to Matt Miller et al. Maybe you ask Matt Miller or any other +10k Infra nation how to do that. Shout out to my IRON opponents, it was a pleasure to fight you. Ahh, btw, you may talk to IRON how they will rebuild those crushed nations, it seems IRON knows their business.

Some more help

Selected Infra marks with for a Nation with 3BG and an ISS. Note: This is even not the best combo with the biggest Infra purchase reduction, if you want that go for 5BG.

Cash need to buy Infra with a 3BG and an ISS

20-99 needs 33,947

100-199 needs 98,334

200-999 needs 3,686,220

1000-2999 needs 37,487,224

3000-3999 needs 39,183,335

4000-4999 needs 67,061,960

Total 147,551,019

or

20-99 needs 33,947

100-199 needs 98,334

200-999 needs 3,686,220

1000-2999 needs 37,487,224

3000-3999 needs 39,183,335

4000-4999 needs 67,061,960

5000-5999 needs 102,380,341

6000-6999 needs 145,272,592

Total 395,203,953

Those numbers are 100% exact to it´s last digit.

Now that point about "We aren´t able to get out 90% of our Nations into warmode".

Wait what ???

So you didn´t thought about messaging those peacemode nations first, checking if they would be able to be out in say 10 or at worst 19days (You know the 19days rule of inactivity, right) .

So in the absolute worst case your peacemode nations should be able to be all out in 19days within at worst 2 or 3 days otherwise, well, you know they would be deleted.

So you didn´t thought about, lets say negotiate something like "Hey guys, what about a ceasefire for 10/19days so we can organize to get our peacemode nations out in time".

I`m sorry NPO either you are complete idiots or absolute incompetent, and again i will give you credit, and say you are using propaganda.

P.S.:

I´m not saying those terms given to you are lenient, I´m saying you use excusions and propaganda to lift them.

[RandomInterrupt]

Psshhh, what do the Grämlins know about nation building?

Sarcasm aside, the NPO is just telling their usual lies. All they are doing is ensuring that they will have no say in the final rep amount, as they can not be trusted to say what they can and can not pay.

[astronaut jones]

what? what's an excusions? Oh steelrat, you so crazy.. and maybe you shouldn't be saying those things about the NPO when, well.. excusions, excusions I guess.

Edited June 14, 2009 by astronaut jones

[Letum]

Now to the point, our banks will be dead after 2 weeks of nuclear war.

That´s a big fat greek wedding lie.

Any nation with +1billion warchest will ride out that easy. Even nations with only +500m warchest won´t have any problem to rebuild to at least 5k Infra. And do not tell the public your peace mode nations do not have that big warchests. They have.

And i know what i´m talking about, i did that. I lost about 7k Infra, thanks to Matt Miller et al. Maybe you ask Matt Miller or any other +10k Infra nation how to do that. Shout out to my IRON opponents, it was a pleasure to fight you. Ahh, btw, you may talk to IRON how they will rebuild those crushed nations, it seems IRON knows their business.

People keep on bringing this warchest thing up, and we keep responding with the same fact.

Yes, our nations with +1billion warchests will survive. So will our nations with only +500m warchests. The problem is, the number of these nations that have a big enough warchest to survive is about 50.

Karma's calculations are based on the assumption that we have 4 times more. They are wrong.

[Lord Brendan]

The Lycaeum board is offline, it seems.

[Ogaden]

Dear Steelrat,

Thank you for your opinion.

All the best,

- James Dahl

[Mixoux]

But, but, after 2 weeks of war they won't even have 150 mil on hand!!

I was nuked 11 times and only spent, at most, 200 million to maintain 4,999 infra at the end. This was with 2-3 opponents each time (shocking, I know) and rebuying every military unit, without an optimal trade set to buy infra too, mind you. Add an extra 3 nukes and this would barely increase any more than that. These nations won't even need to constantly rebuy navy and what not after this as the war will be over for them, and yes, many of them have 1b+, or over 500m as well.

Even if you were ZIed it'd take a fraction of your warchest to get to 4999 or higher.

EDIT: And if the rest don't even have enough to have even 150m after the 2 weeks, that's quite depressing for a bank.

Edited June 14, 2009 by Mixoux

[astronaut jones]

People keep on bringing this warchest thing up, and we keep responding with the same fact.

Yes, our nations with +1billion warchests will survive. So will our nations with only +500m warchests. The problem is, the number of these nations that have a big enough warchest to survive is about 50.

Karma's calculations are based on the assumption that we have 4 times more. They are wrong.

This is just another gremlin thinking they're ever-so-smart, and that they have all the answers, and they can get away with being indignant to everyone else because they think so highly of themselves.

Pay the gremlins no mind.

[Un4Gvn1]

what? what's an excusions? Oh steelrat, you so crazy.. and maybe you shouldn't be saying those things about the NPO when, well.. excusions, excusions I guess.

English is Steelrat's 2nd or 3rd (not sure) language. Every one of us reading that knew exactly what he meant.

The nation guides are going to be useful for some nations.

[Matthew Conrad]

People keep on bringing this warchest thing up, and we keep responding with the same fact.

Yes, our nations with +1billion warchests will survive. So will our nations with only +500m warchests. The problem is, the number of these nations that have a big enough warchest to survive is about 50.

Karma's calculations are based on the assumption that we have 4 times more. They are wrong.

You realize we ran a coordinated spy op program on all your top 40 and many below right? When we have the actual spy reports, you can't really argue the math.

[Cortath]

Present your math, and we can talk.

But you won't present your math, because I know exactly how your 2-3 months estimates come about.

It assumes these things:

• 100% activity
  
• 100% slot efficiency at 6 slots
  
• 100% participation by 100% of the nations who have more than 1K+ tech
  
• And that all these nations will be able to pay out every single time after being destroyed in war
  

As I stated in my post, these assumptions are unrealistic.

[Steelrat]

what? what's an excusions? Oh steelrat, you so crazy.. and maybe you shouldn't be saying those things about the NPO when, well.. excusions, excusions I guess.

Damnit, i know i should have checked my dictionary before . Seems my latin did´t helped me here but i guess you all get what i meant.

[President Obama]

This is just another gremlin thinking they're ever-so-smart, and that they have all the answers, and they can get away with being indignant to everyone else because they think so highly of themselves.

Pay the gremlins no mind.

Let your hate flow through you.

[BastardofGod]

I think its hard to throw in calculations when you are asking what nations can pay reparations to take a huge hit to themselves. I'm surprised to see a Gramlin supporting such harsh terms against a former ally and against any alliance. Shame

[Tulafaras]

Present your math, and we can talk.

But you won't present your math, because I know exactly how your 2-3 months estimates come about.

It assumes these things:

• 100% activity
  
• 100% slot efficiency at 6 slots
  
• 100% participation by 100% of the nations who have more than 1K+ tech
  
• And that all these nations will be able to pay out every single time after being destroyed in war
  

As I stated in my post, these assumptions are unrealistic.

and your famous post is calculated with a tech factor of 6k and the assumption that every single attack hits and your nations don't know how to turtle.

So i guess your calculation is unrealistic as well?

[Steelrat]

People keep on bringing this warchest thing up, and we keep responding with the same fact.

Yes, our nations with +1billion warchests will survive. So will our nations with only +500m warchests. The problem is, the number of these nations that have a big enough warchest to survive is about 50.

Karma's calculations are based on the assumption that we have 4 times more. They are wrong.

Present your math, and we can talk.

But you won't present your math, because I know exactly how your 2-3 months estimates come about.

It assumes these things:

• 100% activity
  
• 100% slot efficiency at 6 slots
  
• 100% participation by 100% of the nations who have more than 1K+ tech
  
• And that all these nations will be able to pay out every single time after being destroyed in war
  

As I stated in my post, these assumptions are unrealistic.

I´m not going to argue or discuss that quotes neither i will present my math or anything more i did in my op. There are so many replies with exact math which proves you, NPO, wrong, it´s not funny anymore.

All i´m saying is you look incompetent at worst, at best it is propaganda.

[Archon]

Present your math, and we can talk.

But you won't present your math, because I know exactly how your 2-3 months estimates come about.

It assumes these things:

• 100% activity
  
• 100% slot efficiency at 6 slots
  
• 100% participation by 100% of the nations who have more than 1K+ tech
  
• And that all these nations will be able to pay out every single time after being destroyed in war
  

As I stated in my post, these assumptions are unrealistic.

He clearly says "at best 2-3 months at worst 5-6." If you're going to debate anything, debate the worst case. Right now you're claiming that your alliance does not have an infrastructure in place to obtain maximal efficiency from your banking system. Therefore, you would be arguing his worst case situation situation, not his best case. So challenge his 5-6 month mark, not the 2-3 month mark.

[mhawk]

I`m sorry NPO either you are complete idiots or absolute incompetent, and again i will give you credit, and say you are using propaganda.

NPO are hardly idiots or absolutely incompetent, but you are beyond any measure arrogant presuming you know their capabilities better than they do while neglecting that there is a huge unknown variable in reaching that 90% marker. Why not just have the 90% removed?

[Letum]

You realize we ran a coordinated spy op program on all your top 40 and many below right? When we have the actual spy reports, you can't really argue the math.

Somehow, the only results from this co-ordinated spy op that I have seen are only the top 20 warchests.

If you have the spy data, give the warchests for all 181 nations paying this, not just the 28% that meet the requirements.

and your famous post is calculated with a tech factor of 6k and the assumption that every single attack hits and your nations don't know how to turtle.

Turtling is supposed to stop nukes now?

Please, share more of these godlike strategies of yours.

I´m not going to argue or discuss that quotes neither i will present my math or anything more i did in my op. There are so many replies with exact math which proves you, NPO, wrong, it´s not funny anymore.

It is very funny actually, because Karma is posting math that does not even address the scenario we are giving them. Instead of trying to prove the numbers we give them wrong, they use Handwavium and claim that warchests will make up all the difference.

[jaaku]

Damnit, i know i should have checked my dictionary before . Seems my latin did´t helped me here but i guess you all get what i meant.

Yes, we all did. Some people just like to nit-pick over the smallest of things to find a hole in an argument.

That said, while your numbers may add up, they do make certain assumptions.

That said, those assumptions, if they were false, should only push the time back by a couple months, another 4 at most*. So they still make sense. Thank you for the math steelrat, you've always been a genius with numbers.

*that estimate was in fact a S.W.A.G - Stupid wild $@! guess, I don't have time to do the full numbers due to RL, but I assume someone has. I just went with some intuition

Edited June 14, 2009 by jaaku

[Petrovich4]

Looks and sounds good and doable. We all know NPO are whining about being punished for a deliberate, aggressive war they initiated. I really do wonder what the higher ups are feeding the Body Republic, saying they can't pay it. It's more like they won't pay it.

[Tulafaras]

turtling stops GAs as you well know. considering i've seen Cortath argue that you can be nuked 3 times a day i'm sorry to say but i've lost faith in his knowledge of game mechanics.

I've been in 4 circles of war with 2 nuke capable (and fighting) opponents each time. The total damage i took was 3.2k infra and 1.2k tech. When this war started i was at 67k NS meaning of a comparable size to the banks we are discussing frankly my firsthand observations do not match your allegations.

[deth2munkies]

NPO are hardly idiots or absolutely incompetent, but you are beyond any measure arrogant presuming you know their capabilities better than they do while neglecting that there is a huge unknown variable in reaching that 90% marker. Why not just have the 90% removed?

mhawk. The NPO is claiming that they cannot coordinate their military or economic corps and thus cannot meet the standards. That is what incompetency is, at least as far as internal affairs are concerned. Therefore, the NPO's "defense" against the reps imposed is to make them look terrible by claiming incompetency, a point which the OP shows.

[Letum]

Looks and sounds good and doable. We all know NPO are whining about being punished for a deliberate, aggressive war they initiated. I really do wonder what the higher ups are feeding the Body Republic, saying they can't pay it. It's more like they won't pay it.

We've offered to pay it. We've offered to pay more.

For some reason, Karma is not allowing us the opportunity to actually pay, instead whining about how we are a magical threat and need to be hit even more instead of paying reps right now.

turtling stops GAs as you well know. considering i've seen Cortath argue that you can be nuked 3 times a day i'm sorry to say but i've lost faith in his knowledge of game mechanics.

Nukes are responsible for 80% of this damage. And we are talking about 14 nukes, 1 per day. That is the figure used in all calculations presented to you. If someone claimed otherwise, they probably made a mistake due to temporary confusion.

mhawk. The NPO is claiming that they cannot coordinate their military or economic corps and thus cannot meet the standards. That is what incompetency is, at least as far as internal affairs are concerned.

We are able to meet the standards now. We will not be able to meet them if the war goes on after the peace agreement. Because you know, to pay out 213% of your tech level after a 2.5 month war with a 25% member restriction, you need more than co-ordination, you need a magic wand.

Edited June 14, 2009 by Letum

[Steelrat]

NPO are hardly idiots or absolutely incompetent, but you are beyond any measure arrogant presuming you know their capabilities better than they do while neglecting that there is a huge unknown variable in reaching that 90% marker. Why not just have the 90% removed?

Sure, NPO can try to negotiate that term away, no problem it´s their prerogative but i can´t cope with that blantant propaganda they use. Btw i offered a solution here

Now that point about "We aren´t able to get out 90% of our Nations into warmode".

Wait what ???

So you didn´t thought about messaging those peacemode nations first, checking if they would be able to be out in say 10 or at worst 19days (You know the 19days rule of inactivity, right) .

So in the absolute worst case your peacemode nations should be able to be all out in 19days within at worst 2 or 3 days otherwise, well, you know they would be deleted.

So you didn´t thought about, lets say negotiate something like "Hey guys, what about a ceasefire for 10/19days so we can organize to get our peacemode nations out in time".

To clarify that, the nations won´t be deleted if they stay in peace mode and collect but 19days is the maximum amount of days to be sure to get an answer of any sort from a nation.

Edited June 14, 2009 by Steelrat