The Phoenix Federation Response to war.

[potato]

This whole idea that these "casus bellis" can be stored away like monopoly cards to be played at a later date is getting ridiculous.

And it also appears that TPF is worth getting rolled for all this 'spying' nonsense, but not the 'spies' themselves. It's funny who gets the break here, but not TPF. Some diplomacy, or less old logs would've been nice.

Zero Hour sure got what they wanted, hopefully that animosity is satisfied now.

You do know realise that Athens heard about this on Christmas Day, right? Today's the 27th. That means 3 days (4 depending on your time zone) to act upon. That's hardly storing.

Edited December 27, 2009 by potato

[junkahoolik]

Being an incompetent spy does not excuse you from spying.

yeah. go spy!!

[The Big Bad]

yes because TPF choosing to stay in a state of war really matters? also, you guys keep ignoring the fact that mhawk, desperado, and others knew that ZH was attempting to spy and destroy Athens after the war concluded and never once did they come forward to warn Athens. if their hands were not involved in the matter as they keep saying, why would they not come forward? unless of course their hands were involved and they did not want that small tidbit to become known.

thus, your whole "it happened during a war" !@#$%^&* reasoning fails.

Thats because not only was ZH not friends with TPF they are hostile. So this CB is pretty much based on what TPF would like to have done during the war. Their is a great deal of dislike between persons in TPF and ZH. I had heard some one them were plotting to get TPF rolled I just never though anyone would be stupid enough to buy it. Of course I don't for a second think anyone bought it, we all know what this is.

[AVFC1]

Would someone care to explain why so many people think it matters when this plotting took place?

When it happened doesn't make it any less of a valid reason to attack, Athens and RoK only just found out about this.

[King Louis the II]

This whole idea that these "casus bellis" can be stored away like monopoly cards to be played at a later date is getting ridiculous.

And it also appears that TPF is worth getting rolled for all this 'spying' nonsense, but not the 'spies' themselves. It's funny who gets the break here, but not TPF. Some diplomacy, or less old logs would've been nice.

Zero Hour sure got what they wanted, hopefully that animosity is satisfied now.

First: 6 months it started... They had to organize, start the idea of the protectorate etc.. so this take some time...

second: As I said earlier the idea was not just spy but to destablize an AA.

[Bob]

You avoided my point, are really a war needed because a ideia 6 months old, where a failed attempt of spy occurred and when no information was obtained? Couldn't it be fixed diplomaticaly?

Yes, are really a war was needed.

Read the threads, this has been beaten to death over and over and by repeating it, you do not make it true.

Edited December 27, 2009 by Penlugue Solaris

[D34th]

No. Because... Actually, no. Reread the post you quoted. The answer is there.

All I can read is, TPF gave us a weak reason to fight them because something that they did 6 months before and we are so much bloodthirsty to even think about fix that diplomatically.

Funny how all replys that I get is "WE ARE RIGHT, THEY TRIED TO SPY ON US!"

Nobody here, or at least me, are trying to say that you are wrong or TPF are right people, what I'm trying to say is: You could have fixed that diplomatially, there was no reason of a war over something that happened 6 months before, and after all, if the diplomatic talks have failed you still would have your war.

[JBone]

Hi.

Gotta love waking up to 17 new messages in my inbox....roflmao.

There seems to be some confusion here as to certain facts and timelines, although I was not directly involved in this plan/mission/scheme I will try to shed some light on events as I saw them unfold.

Before the Karma war started some members of TPF, both government and non, had expressed a desire to leave and form their own alliance, Zero Hour. Before this had a chance to come to fruition war broke out and the idea was put on hold as the afore mentioned members wanted to stay and assist TPF during the war.

Sometime during the Karma war, mid to latter stages, after it looked like NPO was not going to get peace anytime soon, and TPF had committed to stand by Pacifica until she did, talks resumed concerning the members leaving and forming ZH.

As it looked like this was going to be a long and protracted war the idea was brought up to put this new AA to some use, as TPF had her hands full.....not sure whos idea it was but suffice to say it went forward. As we were at war with the forces of Karma in general and some others the idea was to select an alliance on that side who would be susceptible to an infiltration by merger....RoK and Athens were the logical targets. If we were going to have our feet held to the fire for a length of time we wanted to continue to harm the opposition by any means possible.

The members who eventually became ZH, surrendered and were placed in the KarmaPow AA, TPF continued the fight. When LM released all KarmaPow, ZH formed, TPF was still engaged with several fronts. By now it was Athens who was the chosen target, due to their propensity to welcome merges and the very vocal nature in which they embraced our sides destruction.

Sometime before the war ended, mhawk had a very large falling out with many members of ZH, this in effect ended the merge/infiltration plan and our two alliances went their merry ways. ZH did indeed become a protectorate of Athens and from what I could tell actually had a great relationship with them. We continued to fight until terms for NPO were finalized and eventually gained our own peace.

Why ZH waited until now to let Athens know about this wartime plan is beyond me. TPF had no obligation to bring the plan to anyones attention as it was started and ended within the confines of the Karma war, and that had reached it’s conclusion long ago.

This was a plan formulated during wartime and the fact that it went belly up during that same wartime....well before peace was gained, would seem to place it in the category of things that should have been over when terms were signed.

But war is cool, I already broke into the top 50 in casualties......Im coming for your stats Twist.

[Bob]

All I can read is, TPF gave us a weak reason to fight them because something that they did 6 months before and we are so much bloodthirsty to even think about fix that diplomatically.

Funny how all replys that I get is "WE ARE RIGHT, THEY TRIED TO SPY ON US!"

Nobody here, or at least me, are trying to say that you are wrong or TPF are right people, what I'm trying to say is: You could have fixed that diplomatially, there was no reason of a war over something that happened 6 months before, and after all, if the diplomatic talks have failed you still would have your war.

What should have been discussed in diplomacy?

This is now the second time I am doing this, so please don't make me do it a third.

Athens: We want the heads of everyone in TPF responsible for this.

TPF: So you want our govt.

Athens: Basically.

TPF: *peacemode*

Athens: %&*#@

[Triyun]

Would someone care to explain why so many people think it matters when this plotting took place?

When it happened doesn't make it any less of a valid reason to attack, Athens and RoK only just found out about this.

Because developing contingency plans to fight your enemies while you are at war is not a valid CB to be attacked again. If one acted post war on contingency plans (something that absolutely did not happen) than that is another story. TPF has not engaged in a new act of war since it got peace from the Karma Coalition. This war is basic opportunism at its worst. A few guys in Karma got bored and wanted to go kill the mean old TPF.

[Mixoux]

All I can read is, TPF gave us a weak reason to fight them because something that they did 6 months before and we are so much bloodthirsty to even think about fix that diplomatically.

Funny how all replys that I get is "WE ARE RIGHT, THEY TRIED TO SPY ON US!"

Nobody here, or at least me, are trying to say that you are wrong or TPF are right people, what I'm trying to say is: You could have fixed that diplomatially, there was no reason of a war over something that happened 6 months before, and after all, if the diplomatic talks have failed you still would have your war.

I keep seeing the whole diplomacy argument being thrown about.

What exactly could you talk about to TPF after this?

"Hey, we know you tried to spy on people, and then after months of not getting intel, you continued to keep it a secret from everyone. Now obviously this is going to hurt our trust in you.. but don't do it again."

"Congrats. Peace in our time o/"

[2burnt2eat]

You do know realise that Athens heard about this on Christmas Day. Today's the 27th. That means 3 days (4 depending on your time zone) to act upon. That's hardly storing.

I wouldn't have access to information like that would I? So what the hell do you think I'm referring to?

The fact that this issue is 6 months old, during the Karma War, and without any relevant proof of this actually continuing but assumptions and guesses.

I couldn't care less when you found it out. I'm sure you'd support spying allegations from '07, or even '06 as war reasons now. It'd be silly, but hey, at least you'd be consistent.

I hope.

[Felix von Agnu]

so 28 pages comming up and the main line of defense is still "sure you might have proof that we sent people over to spy on you but you can't prove that they actually did any spying". Doesn't that line of defense seem silly to anyone else? If you send spies to someone then you're attempting to spy, the ammount and quality of the information you get out of it isn't relevant.

TPF made a choice to send these spies over. After the karma war ended they still had the same people planted at the same place and still choose to keep quiet about the spying operation. That's where the "this was during the war so it's fine" line of defense fails.

If they had maintainted contact after the war ended, that line of defense would fail. The two alliances were pretty much no longer talking at that point TPF got peace, iirc.

[Dochartaigh]

I have no obligations to Athens, that is why I did not say anything. I see no reason to be some tattle-tell on friends. I see how high you hold friends in regard now. I am glad I'm not your friend.

I'm not saying that Athens can spy on TPF's allies, unless those allies decide to jump into the war.

At the time, the thinking was that NPO was likely to be put into a state of prolonged war (one with no clear end in the foreseeable future), and if it did end, just disband ZH and rejoin TPF. Of course a few key members of ZH had that OOC falling out, so they stopped talking.

Do you really believe this would have been the case? I think you may be a bit dizzy from all the spinning, but why would ZH help out people they had a falling out with?

well the difference between you and me, is if my old friends did something i found despicable, yes i would "tattle-tale" on them, why, because my code of conduct is obviously much more reliable than yours.

from all the outrage about spying done by Vox and FAN, i would think that spying on any alliance regardless of ties, would be given the same outrage by TPF but that is obviously not the case. thus, your word is quite useless as why is it awful when done to you but not when done to Athens?

so, now you are saying that Athens cannot spy on TPF's allies unless those allies jump into the war? what happened to spying being okay under wartime conditions? Athens is at war, thus, it is a war time situation for them regardless of the status of TPF's allies being in or not in the war.

i am not dizzy in the least. i am simply trying to figure out why TPF thinks it is okay to spy on Athens when they so obviously felt differently when it happened to them? once the war was over with, you would figure that TPF would have come forward since ya know, it was only war-time actions and thus no big deal, amirite???????

why then did TPF never come forward if all this was such a minor nothing? could it be that it is a major something and TPF and friends are only using the "war-time"actions as a way to stop TPF from getting the punishment it deserves?

that is the way i feel it is. if it was no big deal, TPF should have come forward but didn't. so obviously it is a much bigger deal than ya'll want to let on.

[King Louis the II]

All I can read is, TPF gave us a weak reason to fight them because something that they did 6 months before and we are so much bloodthirsty to even think about fix that diplomatically.

Funny how all replys that I get is "WE ARE RIGHT, THEY TRIED TO SPY ON US!"

Nobody here, or at least me, are trying to say that you are wrong or TPF are right people, what I'm trying to say is: You could have fixed that diplomatially, there was no reason of a war over something that happened 6 months before, and after all, if the diplomatic talks have failed you still would have your war.

I don't know if this could be solved diplomatically or not. I always think the diplomatic route is better. But...IT WAS NOT JUST ABOUT SPYING. And six months ago was when everything started...who knows how long the process was still alive until they decided to change sides..! If it is true that there was a plot to organize an AA , infiltrate and DESTABILIZE an AA ant I think that was a very low move. If was just spying I might have agreed with you...

Edited December 27, 2009 by King Louis the II

[Bob]

Because developing contingency plans to fight your enemies while you are at war is not a valid CB to be attacked again.

Is there something you would like to confess here Triyun that NPO did?

[Proko]

you forget, i was Polar during that war as well.

as for state of war not being a factor, i agree it is not. but the fact is, TPF knew of an attempt to spy on Athens as well as an attempt to destroy Athens, regardless of whether they were part of it or not, they knew of the attempts and never once went to Athens. this to me makes it much more likely that TPF was in on the entire thing otherwise, if it was a split as mhawk states, why did they never come forward with this information and allow ZH to take the punishment?

the only reason i can conclude is that TPF was hoping for information to be gained from this as well as the destruction of Athens due to TPF having helped plan it.

to me, this situation is more similar to a hypothetical situation where Polaris had found out who was planning on attacking Polaris during the SPW, and Polaris striking first based on the fact that there were alliances that plotted to destroy Polaris.

I did not forget.

I confess I do not have all the information and while I have read most of the relevant threads there is some issue with time that I do not understand, and it is perhaps the nature of our disagreement. It is agreed by all parties (I think) that Zero Hour defected and the plot was foiled. What does not seem agreed is when Zero Hour forfeited its mission, and for what span of time TPF was involved in the plot to destabilize Athens. At least, this is not clear to me.

There are any number of reasons TPF might not have gone to Athens with this information, and fear seems most likely to me, although you could be correct that they wanted to continue their plot. Mhawk must have realized the embarrassing hypocrisy in setting up an alliance to spy on Athens while condemning Ordo Verde for something far more innocuous, and he may not have wanted anyone to see that, or might have feared for his status as a result of that information being made public. Yes, it could have been because TPF wanted to continue to try and undermine Athens, or it could have been an attempt to save face after a war that cost them PR. I do not know.

I would disagree with your hypothetical, and instead say this is more like Polaris attacking TOP six months later for a plot destroy it. The span of time is important to this conflict: GATO is not going to attack NPO if it found conclusive evidence that NPO spied on them during GWII. Similarly, Athens probably would not have attacked TPF over this if this information was discovered a year from now. I understand I am simply drawing arbitrary lines, but when the plot is long since dismantled, there is no urgency about a conflict like this. I still would have preferred diplomacy.

[Merrie Melodies]

Hi.

Gotta love waking up to 17 new messages in my inbox....roflmao.

There seems to be some confusion here as to certain facts and timelines, although I was not directly involved in this plan/mission/scheme I will try to shed some light on events as I saw them unfold.

Before the Karma war started some members of TPF, both government and non, had expressed a desire to leave and form their own alliance, Zero Hour. Before this had a chance to come to fruition war broke out and the idea was put on hold as the afore mentioned members wanted to stay and assist TPF during the war.

Sometime during the Karma war, mid to latter stages, after it looked like NPO was not going to get peace anytime soon, and TPF had committed to stand by Pacifica until she did, talks resumed concerning the members leaving and forming ZH.

As it looked like this was going to be a long and protracted war the idea was brought up to put this new AA to some use, as TPF had her hands full.....not sure whos idea it was but suffice to say it went forward. As we were at war with the forces of Karma in general and some others the idea was to select an alliance on that side who would be susceptible to an infiltration by merger....RoK and Athens were the logical targets. If we were going to have our feet held to the fire for a length of time we wanted to continue to harm the opposition by any means possible.

The members who eventually became ZH, surrendered and were placed in the KarmaPow AA, TPF continued the fight. When LM released all KarmaPow, ZH formed, TPF was still engaged with several fronts. By now it was Athens who was the chosen target, due to their propensity to welcome merges and the very vocal nature in which they embraced our sides destruction.

Sometime before the war ended, mhawk had a very large falling out with many members of ZH, this in effect ended the merge/infiltration plan and our two alliances went their merry ways. ZH did indeed become a protectorate of Athens and from what I could tell actually had a great relationship with them. We continued to fight until terms for NPO were finalized and eventually gained our own peace.

Why ZH waited until now to let Athens know about this wartime plan is beyond me. TPF had no obligation to bring the plan to anyones attention as it was started and ended within the confines of the Karma war, and that had reached it’s conclusion long ago.

This was a plan formulated during wartime and the fact that it went belly up during that same wartime....well before peace was gained, would seem to place it in the category of things that should have been over when terms were signed.

But war is cool, I already broke into the top 50 in casualties......Im coming for your stats Twist.

A simple coming clean about this all those months ago could have avoided this, considering the rumors of that "falling out" one should have assumed at some point bad would come of it.

I hope everone takes notes, when peace comes in a war and you are on the losing end, come clean on all war time activities. End the war.

[AirMe]

This whole idea that these "casus bellis" can be stored away like monopoly cards to be played at a later date is getting ridiculous.

And it also appears that TPF is worth getting rolled for all this 'spying' nonsense, but not the 'spies' themselves. It's funny who gets the break here, but not TPF. Some diplomacy, or less old logs would've been nice.

Zero Hour sure got what they wanted, hopefully that animosity is satisfied now.

Ok, I am going to say it and only say it once you dumb arses.

The information WASN'T STORED AWAY! In the DoW from Athens, they didn't know about it until a few days ago.

Now that we have THAT FACT. You can proceed with accusing Athens of having a time machine and telling them they should have used it to go ahead in time to discover the threat that they didn't know about until 3 days ago.

Also basing the defense the surrender terms being signed by "Karma" is LOL. Go get a real defense and come back.

Thank you come again.

[potato]

I wouldn't have access to information like that would I? So what the hell do you think I'm referring to?

The fact that this issue is 6 months old, during the Karma War, and without any relevant proof of this actually continuing but assumptions and guesses.

I couldn't care less when you found it out. I'm sure you'd support spying allegations from '07, or even '06 as war reasons now. It'd be silly, but hey, at least you'd be consistent.

I hope.

That argument again? Do you read before posting or do you just like to hear yourself talk? Athens didn't fight TPF during the Karma War. So, tell me how are the Karma War, Athens and TPF related in that matter?

[AVFC1]

Because developing contingency plans to fight your enemies while you are at war is not a valid CB to be attacked again. If one acted post war on contingency plans (something that absolutely did not happen) than that is another story. TPF has not engaged in a new act of war since it got peace from the Karma Coalition. This war is basic opportunism at its worst. A few guys in Karma got bored and wanted to go kill the mean old TPF.

Athens weren't at war with TPF. The idea that because TPF plotted against them during a war, they can't be attacked over it is ridiculous.

You avoided my point, are really a war needed because a ideia 6 months old, where a failed attempt of spy occurred and when no information was obtained? Couldn't it be fixed diplomaticaly?

So because they failed and got caught they shouldn't be punished? By that logic attempted murder wouldn't be a crime.

Why not? Too much Blood thirst?

TPF chose to commit an act of war, why do things have to be resolved diplomatically?

[AirMe]

I wouldn't have access to information like that would I? So what the hell do you think I'm referring to?

The fact that this issue is 6 months old, during the Karma War, and without any relevant proof of this actually continuing but assumptions and guesses.

I couldn't care less when you found it out. I'm sure you'd support spying allegations from '07, or even '06 as war reasons now. It'd be silly, but hey, at least you'd be consistent.

I hope.

I have a question for you. You clearly are a NSO fanboy from your posting style in the last week, what do you think NSO would do with this information if they received it? I guarantee you that Ivan would be rolling tanks straight through TPF at this point.

[Dochartaigh]

Would they have participated in spying itself, no of course not; and no one is saying that. But the 'amused' demeanor or I'd really say admiration on the part of the 'karma' community reflects upon the underlying values of the people at the time. And to take that a bit further it was not 'just amusement', the karma war was framed as a war of liberation overthrowing the oppression of NPO and Q and 'giving them what they deserved'. Take a moment and look back at the opening days of the war, look at the ToS thread for NPO, and Echelon, the community was all but an accomplice to the movement Vox represented. Vox themselves disbanded stating that their existence was no longer required as the efforts of karma had fulfilled most of their opening goals, and beyond that if you look at the lead up to the war itself the OWF might as well have been run by Vox. To say that the community didn't condone or approve of what Vox did, or to say that those within Karma didn't consider themselves part of the movement to retake the community from NPO is patently false. That being said the point of inconsistency remains.

in no way was Karma linked to Vox in the least. it seems that only former Heg and former Vox members think this way. Karma was separate from Vox. so how about you get away from that line of thinking.

as for the war on the OWF- it was a propaganda war... i saw many in Karma openly disputing Vox as much as they agreed with them so i am unsure where you are even attempting to go with this.

the community found it amusing but again, never raised a voice when Vox was declared on for spying. so your point of inconsistency is nowhere to be seen as you are now stating that spying is okay where before you felt that spying was not okay.

ya'll are the ones who are inconsistent, not us. so you should deal with your own inconsistencies before point out the non-existent ones on our side.

[junkahoolik]

What should have been discussed in diplomacy?

This is now the second time I am doing this, so please don't make me do it a third.

Athens: We want the heads of everyone in TPF responsible for this.

TPF: So you want our govt.

Athens: Basically.

TPF: *peacemode*

Athens: %&*#@

i remember KARMA condemning npo for the exact things you said... now correct me if i'm wrong, but are you a hypocrite??

[Bob]

i remember KARMA condemning npo for the exact things you said... now correct me if i'm wrong, but are you a hypocrite??

You are wrong. Learn your history before resorting to insults.

NPO had a much smaller version of this happen, and they tried to handle it diplomatically and messed it up quite terribly. No one has condemned NPO for attacking ODN during the Citrus War or PWII attacking NAAC during Karma, because there was proof of spying.

There is proof here. There is no justice but war for those alliance leaders who spy in the Cyberverse.