Indignados DoE

[Sabcat]

My scheme is not for "tech equality", although I have used that phrase once. It's for emancipation from tech exploitation. Whether or not my argument satisfies the category of "collectivist argument" or "liberal argument" is irrelevant and just an appeal to the empty authority of political tribalism. That said, I am a communist, not a collectivist.

In this world  communist and collectivist are interchangeable. The best alliances, the ones that succeed and hold themselves together through good times and bad are as communist as it's possible to be here. The individual nation here is meaningless, it's simply part of a whole that is the alliance. The only places this can differ is in alliances that are neutral, that is alliances that play no meaningful role, where existence happens for its own sake. Everywhere else the alliance is more important than the individual nations within it. What you call exploitation others might call a mutually essential survival action.

[gunzzz]

The best alliances, the ones that succeed and hold themselves together through good times and bad are as communist as it's possible to be here.

Arent you emphasizing the case for commie alliances a tad bit much here?

[Sabcat]

Arent you emphasizing the case for commie alliances a tad bit much here?

 

It depends on your definition of communist. When I talk about the alliances as communist as it's possible to be I'm thinking NPO as the prime example but Umbrella, TOP, any successful alliance in fact. They're not commies, they behave in the most communist way possible though in this world. They maximise their resources for the good of the whole in the best way possible - The alliance is greater than the individual. They protect and nurture their members. That's as close to communism as you can get on Bob in the material sense. Alliances could potentially be more communist by adjusting tech prices but only in so far as those adjustments benefited the alliance, not individuals within in it.

[gunzzz]

I get what you are saying, I just wouldn't necessarily call it communism or acting in a communist nature... It's too broad of use for me to derive any meaning from it.

[HM Solomon I]

Newsflash: every argument is ideological. You can't escape ideology, my friend.

There is a vast difference between an argument that justifies an ideology and one that is actually based on an ideology; yours is the latter.

Also you say every argument is ideological, well I'd like you to find the ideology in this argument:

All bachelors are unmarried.
Mark is a bachelor.
Therefore, Mark is unmarried.

[Sabcat]

I get what you are saying, I just wouldn't necessarily call it communism or acting in a communist nature... It's too broad of use for me to derive any meaning from it.

 

It's not, strictly speaking but it's as close as you can get in this world. The general point I'm making is that Le Marx isn't talking about communism it's just liberal drivel. The end to tech exploitation as he calls it wouldn't benefit his alliance. With some tweaking it could by drawing in new members, growing them and keeping them but not in the terms he uses and certainly not using his numbers.

 

I argued a similar position to his when I was in Legion because they used numbers at the time which were ridiculous. I could sell tech for more on the open market than they were paying to members. As it was they lost the tech seller and the alliance member - no one won, least of all Legion as a collective entity.

[Keysariyt Hanssen]

Having joined Int during the time since the last Int war, when i joined I had no idea how deep and dark the state of relations between Nordriech and The Int was. This war went back for years in the making, with Int having a constant full jones on for Nordreich's blood. The vote (and Int has also got to the most democratic alliance there is, we vote on &54#@ EVERYTHING) was like 95% for war and it didn't matter what the stats said.

 

Think it's just worth pointing out that whilst a supposedly leftist world loving democratic alliance was brewing and hating us, we were sat around not giving a damn about any feud of the past with Int until the war began.

[La Marx]

All bachelors are unmarried.
Mark is a bachelor.
Therefore, Mark is unmarried.
 

You clearly don't know what ideology means.

[gunzzz]

You clearly don't know what ideology means.

You clearly don't know what an argument means.

[La Marx]

You clearly don't know what an argument means.

Even "argument" is an ideological category.

[gunzzz]

How

[La Marx]

How

Please see base/superstructure.

[gunzzz]

All bachelors are unmarried.
Mark is a bachelor.
Therefore, Mark is unmarried.

dude, just a simple explanation on how this argument is idealogical , or I call bs... It really shouldn't be thst hard to explain...

[Tehmina]

Sabcat has made some very interesting points here. I personally think there should be another thread for that in the World Affairs section..

[Krashnaia]

Kind of ironic considering in the post you quoted Sabcat apparently confused Krashnia with La Marx.

Krashnia is of course is in M16 and therefore not a commie.

 

Ah yes, conservatives are such confused hillbillies :awesome:

 

I'm the KGB mole in MI6. Of course I'm a commie.

 

Regarding La Marx' statement on tech trade, the basic problem of his premise lies in that he confuses exchange value with use value.

 

High-tech nations are extremely inefficient at producing tech. Their costs for producing tech are much higher than the socially necessary labour time to produce tech in Bob. (as 1 unit of tech produced by a 0-tech nation is as good as 1 unit of tech produced by a 10k-tech nation - proven by the fact that the 10k-tech nation can purchase 1 unit of tech from a 0-tech nation, and said tech will be as efficient as 1 tech produced by his own nation - we can conclude that the increase in the cost of tech is not related to the process of manufacturing it becoming more and more complex as your tech level increases. The only cause for such increase seems to be that in Bob, sciencists become lazier the more tech you have).

 

Given their inefficiency at producing tech, high level nations purchase it to low-tech nations, who produce it at a cost way way closer to the socially necessary labour time. As the price of tech is set by the use value of tech, and not his exchange value, low-tech nations get a huge surplus value for their tech.

 

From a marxist point of view, if we are looking for exploitiation, the relevant question here is not how much money high-tech nations pay for the tech. The relevant question here is who keeps the surplus value of the tech: The workers who produced it, or the guy who owns the tech factory. As the cash goes directly to the Nation's treasury, it's up to YOU, the ruler of your nation, to determine if the surplus value will be redistributed among the workers, fetched by the oligarchy, or kept for your own personal amusement. It's, thus, up to you, the ruler, to determine whenever there will be exploitiation or not.

 

Regarding the relationship between nations, low-tech nations are not forced to engage in the trade, are not forced to stay as tech producers, and are paid way more for their tech than the production costs. The high tech nation even provides the initial capital for the operation in advance. There seems, thus, to be no imperialistic oppresion here, and the trade actually helps the low-tech nation to close the gap between it and the high-tech one faster - and, without tech-trading, the low-tech nation can still close that gap, albeit slowly. As there is a fixed maximum tech price in Foreign Aid opperations, and fixed maximum number of slots you can use, the high-tech nations can't even use their higher cash production to monopolize the market and deprive mid-tech nations from participating in the deals as buyers.

 

For there to be some kind of imperialistic oppresion here, the low tech nations should be forced to become tech-farms, forced to stay as tech-farms, and be paid just the production value of the tech, if any. This can be the result of tech-raiding, or forced reparations of war, which is the reason why those practices are considered aberrant by many of us. But are not the result of tech-trade.

 

---

 

And this, ladies and gentlement, IS a (basic) marxist analysis of Tech Dealing in Bob. Anyone is free to write his or her own essay about the nature of tech-dealing, but please don't call it a marxist analysis unless you actually understand at least the basic premises of Das Kapital.

Edited December 27, 2013 by Krashnaia

[Hereno]

 

I'm the KGB mole in MI6. Of course I'm a commie.

 

Can you not say that so loud? Having La Marx running around calling himself a commie is bad enough - we don't need any more negative press.

[Fox Fire]

Harboring deserters? Demanding reps? No protectorate?

This thread sounds like a recipe for destruction...

Good luck?

[Clash]

 

I'm the KGB mole in MI6. Of course I'm a commie.

 

This is important information I was not in the possession of!

 

 

Think it's just worth pointing out that whilst a supposedly leftist world loving democratic alliance was brewing and hating us, we were sat around not giving a damn about any feud of the past with Int until the war began.

 

World-loving? Let's not get all crazy-talkin' now.

Nobody likes everybody, and some of those who say they like everybody, are liked by nobody.

[Jackie Moon]

 

Hey now. His political views that don't involve technology, INT, or Hereno are actually pretty swell.

 

 

[13:46:33] <Hereno> should i tell him to go to the OWF and tell them to make int look like !@#$
[13:46:36] <Hereno> or is that too much
[13:46:52] <BaronTerror> Oh god please do it
[13:47:00] <BaronTerror> and then post these logs
[13:48:44] <Hereno> <Hereno> yeah
[13:48:44] <Hereno> <Hereno> i would honestly just go to the OWF and tell them you're getting hit as a POW
[13:48:44] <Hereno> <Hereno> it would make INT look so bad

 

You can blame Hereno for that, too.

 

Wha-

 

Damn you Hereno, damn you.

[Krashnaia]

 

This is important information I was not in the possession of!

 

That's how they got me. They felt like some moles would be thematically appropiate for the AA, so they sent me some pamphlets. We have still open positions for the Fu-Manchurian mole, the middle-eastern mole, the doppelgänger and the Alien Brain Parasite.

Edited December 28, 2013 by Krashnaia

[Franz Ferdinand]

I honestly expected to be mentioned, oh well. This will end well.

[Groucho Marx]

 

Don't fret your head. You are a GOON, after all. No one expects you to have the brains to tell the differences between basic political principles.

 

Any words that come out of your mouth are so devoid of originality or actual analysis that you might as well give up your keyboard for a program that posts your simple, baseless statements for you to remove the unfair burden on your brain that is the minimal level of intelligence required to press keys on a pad in a specific order to create a sentence to express a thought you are clearly incapable of formulating on your own. I know that it isn't Chimaera's way to censor his members, having led an alliance during the Continuum era, but it would really be to MI6's benefit if you were muzzled so this forum would have less thoughtless turds rolling around from thread to thread, shitting up any discussion by trying to be relevant in a world that is over their heads.

[Beauty]

 

Any words that come out of your mouth are so devoid of originality or actual analysis that you might as well give up your keyboard for a program that posts your simple, baseless statements for you to remove the unfair burden on your brain that is the minimal level of intelligence required to press keys on a pad in a specific order to create a sentence to express a thought you are clearly incapable of formulating on your own. I know that it isn't Chimaera's way to censor his members, having led an alliance during the Continuum era, but it would really be to MI6's benefit if you were muzzled so this forum would have less thoughtless turds rolling around from thread to thread, !@#$ting up any discussion by trying to be relevant in a world that is over their heads.

 

What? No really... lets be serious now, Krashnaia has a point. You guys have never had much leadership intelligence. GOONS 1.0 was a leadership alliance, GOONS 2.0 has always been mindless and basically a leashed dog to whoever wanted to lead it around. Now no one wants to touch that !@#$ though lol. You guys dug your own hole when MK lead you all around. No one is going to dig you out. You in particular are one of the guys in GOONS who got brave when MK would stand behind him too. Which reminds me, havent seen you posting in forever.

Edited December 29, 2013 by Rotavele

[Krashnaia]

 

 

Awww, isn't it adorable?

 

I'd answer that it's your current overlords who should muzzle you. But I've realized no one makes muzzles for your small size. After all, the point of having a yapping dog is to laugh at it when he gets noisy.

 

Have a cookie:

 

Now sit.

 

Good puppy.

Edited December 30, 2013 by Krashnaia