Varianz Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 [quote name='Lusitan' timestamp='1299630211' post='2657230'] I agree, it's far more likely they lose sleep when the time comes and they expect you to help them out. Might as well go ahead and buy them a chair in prior compensation, no one should have to wait so long without sitting. [/quote] Yeah, we have such a long history of failing to support our allies...oh wait... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Last Imperial Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 [quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1299631118' post='2657239'] We attacked before the terms were signed, so that's the relevant point. Just because NSO found it convenient to post a RoH a few weeks later(very clever) doesn't mean you could re-enter while abiding by these terms and we will deal with the situation in accordance with that. [/quote] yes you DoW, but not on NSO, so your attacks on them were not just as you did not DoW them..... is it so hard for you to figure this out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haflinger Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 [quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1299631118' post='2657239'] We attacked before the terms were signed, so that's the relevant point. [/quote] Is it? The terms don't say "attacked" - they say "declare war" which is great e-lawyerese. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cairna Posted March 9, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 [quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1299631118' post='2657239'] We attacked before the terms were signed, so that's the relevant point. Just because NSO found it convenient to post a RoH a few weeks later(very clever) doesn't mean you could re-enter while abiding by these terms and we will deal with the situation in accordance with that. [/quote] You also began attacking SNAFU as MK screwed around with them and ghosted them, calling us out and only stopping after a few days of us not responding. You cannot honestly hope to convince me that you did not want this. Be happy. The last reserves are in. You can only spit in our face so much before we feel like we have no other option. It was explained to us that that clause was to prevent further dogpiling of our allies. Which we feel you did. Coalition warfare and such makes it a grey area, I guess. But we were forced to interpret and choose between two courses of action, one outrightly dishonorable in abandonning our friends, and the other going against an agreement ( warranted as I believe it was, or not ). It's largely an opinion call. And we are all bias. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monster Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 I'm not upset at all. You're the ones who did yourselves in here. It wasn't even a surprise since I saw it coming for over a week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cairna Posted March 9, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 [quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1299632139' post='2657255'] I'm not upset at all. You're the ones who did yourselves in here. It wasn't even a surprise since I saw it coming for over a week. [/quote] I'm unsure what you're responding to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monster Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1299631900' post='2657248'] Is it? The terms don't say "attacked" - they say "declare war" which is great e-lawyerese. [/quote] Oh no. Haflinger disagrees with my interpretation. Cairna: It's in response to you telling me to be happy. As for SNAFU, they declared before the terms were signed and were hit before that. Edited March 9, 2011 by Antoine Roquentin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Crimson King Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 [quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1299632139' post='2657255'] I'm not upset at all. You're the ones who did yourselves in here. It wasn't even a surprise since I saw it coming for over a week. [/quote] Which is the other thing that is confusing then as to why you are acting all taken aback here. If you knew this was a possibility then clearly you were aware that they may be "misinterpreting" the terms you laid down in your eyes. So why not just query them and let them know before they declared war on your ally? This is an honest question by the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Last Imperial Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 [quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1299632425' post='2657262'] Oh no. Haflinger disagrees with my interpretation. Cairna: It's in response to you telling me to be happy. As for SNAFU, they declared before the terms were signed and were hit before that. [/quote] Cairna is not referring the DoW on SNAFU, he is talking about a nation from MK switched his AA to SNAFU and was ask to switch back by SNAFU and CD, when he didn't switch back we went to MK Gov. and all they told us was that he was doing it to annoy us and that he succeeded at his goal, we gave it another 2 days then sent one nation to attack him as a Ghost of SNAFU, and he was sent a message to switch AA and the attack would stop, in less then a few hours he switch back to MK, and the guy was sent peace. Which in my eyes looks kinda fishy on MK part as it looks like they didn't even message there own nation to switch back to their AA and took us attacking him before switching back Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monster Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 [quote name='The Crimson King' timestamp='1299632754' post='2657267'] Which is the other thing that is confusing then as to why you are acting all taken aback here. If you knew this was a possibility then clearly you were aware that they may be "misinterpreting" the terms you laid down in your eyes. So why not just query them and let them know before they declared war on your ally? This is an honest question by the way. [/quote] Ultimately, wouldn't it be up to them to consult before declaring given they knew it would be an issue? Honestly, I thought they would approach someone first. People did approach them when the fake DoW was posted and they could have used that time to straighten the issue out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Crimson King Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 [quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1299634760' post='2657295'] Ultimately, wouldn't it be up to them to consult before declaring given they knew it would be an issue? Honestly, I thought they would approach someone first. People did approach them when the fake DoW was posted and they could have used that time to straighten the issue out. [/quote] Well from their standpoint they can't exactly go to you and say "Hey we ar gonna hit you and your bloc mate in about 3 days...you cool with that?" and expect a non biased response on how you view their terms. All I am saying is that it is/was your job to enforce the terms you signed. If you had even a suspicion that they may do something that was contrary to what you felt your terms dictated I see no reason why you would not approach them and tell them if you do X it is going to be an issue. As you said it was nearly a week between the NSO RoH and CD's entrance into the war. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haflinger Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 [quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1299632425' post='2657262'] Oh no. Haflinger disagrees with my interpretation. [/quote] The problem is that it is just that: an interpretation. If you want surrender terms to be enforced, you ought to do your best to make them clear. When you use vague phrases like "declare war or equivalent"... wtf is that supposed to mean? Use hard language, not soft language. Otherwise you open up the can of worms known as lawyering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heft Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 [quote name='The Crimson King' timestamp='1299635977' post='2657310'] Well from their standpoint they can't exactly go to you and say "Hey we ar gonna hit you and your bloc mate in about 3 days...you cool with that?" and expect a non biased response on how you view their terms. All I am saying is that it is/was your job to enforce the terms you signed. If you had even a suspicion that they may do something that was contrary to what you felt your terms dictated I see no reason why you would not approach them and tell them if you do X it is going to be an issue. As you said it was nearly a week between the NSO RoH and CD's entrance into the war. [/quote] If we had thought there was any question about whether this would be a violation of terms, than a consultation would have happened, in some way or another. As it was, it seemed pretty clear to us that the terms were not any issue, given everything up to this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monster Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 That's a risky way of doing things, to be honest and other signatories have said they would have preferred consultation as well so I still do think it was on CD to go to whoever signed it. I don't think staying out was an option for them, honestly, and that would have been the only alternative to a breach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Buscemi Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 This is a complete breach of CD's surrender terms. But only the opinions of the winning alliances who signed the terms matter. It appears Umbrella already weighted in, I saw an MHA post as well, although I forget if Crush is still a Tri over at MHA. I'd be pretty surprised if CD didn't get DoW'ed by several alliances from the NpO front though. Have to go with Nofish on saying terms have been way too light this war. A standard decomm is always a good idea for say 30 days or so. And once again general membership pays for extremely stupid leadership. This DoW takes the cake for worse move of this war. Congrats on that I guess. CD membership would be wise to throw out it's current leadership. They failed you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CptGodzilla Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 (edited) Should have asked Archon about breaking surrender terms, he knows a thing or two about it. Might as well ask him how that worked out for him. Edited March 9, 2011 by CptGodzilla Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monster Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 Well it's important to keep in mind that CD's engagement has been fairly limited as of yet. We're already doing our part in terms of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyroman Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 [quote name='Steve Buscemi' timestamp='1299664784' post='2657669'] And once again general membership pays for extremely stupid leadership. This DoW takes the cake for worse move of this war. Congrats on that I guess. CD membership would be wise to throw out it's current leadership. They failed you. [/quote] CD isn't a democracy. In any case, the membership mostly wanted war as well. Nobody has been failed here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elorian Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 Uhoh. You're in trouble now, MK! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cairna Posted March 9, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 [quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1299664424' post='2657668'] That's a risky way of doing things, to be honest and other signatories have said they would have preferred consultation as well so I still do think it was on CD to go to whoever signed it. I don't think staying out was an option for them, honestly, and that would have been the only alternative to a breach. [/quote] The assumption was that any warning or consultation would have been taken with hostility and bias, regardless of our situation. Looking back, this was a miscalculation, but like everyone says, we've made our bed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walker Texas Ranger Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 [quote name='Steve Buscemi' timestamp='1299664784' post='2657669'] And once again general membership pays for extremely stupid leadership. This DoW takes the cake for worse move of this war. Congrats on that I guess. CD membership would be wise to throw out it's current leadership. They failed you. [/quote] We've tried to get rid of the lazy SOBs, but no one else wants to be government. So we have to let them stay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassman Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 Did anyone remember the time when everyone was like YAY WAR!!! Even MK has changed from this. This is saddening to see, like a unicorn losing it's rainbow powers, while charlie sheen snorts it up like 7 gram rocks then he drinks the unicorns blood, shaun connery is trying to fight the evil orks to get to the unicorn but theres JUST too many of them and frodo is getting raped by smeagle and i have found i am losing track now... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varianz Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 [quote name='Hassman' timestamp='1299699329' post='2657859'] Did anyone remember the time when everyone was like YAY WAR!!! Even MK has changed from this. This is saddening to see, like a unicorn losing it's rainbow powers, while charlie sheen snorts it up like 7 gram rocks then he drinks the unicorns blood, shaun connery is trying to fight the evil orks to get to the unicorn but theres JUST too many of them and frodo is getting raped by smeagle and i have found i am losing track now... [/quote] What is this I don't even... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Liebenow Posted March 11, 2011 Report Share Posted March 11, 2011 [quote name='Hassman' timestamp='1299699329' post='2657859'] Did anyone remember the time when everyone was like YAY WAR!!! Even MK has changed from this. This is saddening to see, like a unicorn losing it's rainbow powers, while charlie sheen snorts it up like 7 gram rocks then he drinks the unicorns blood, shaun connery is trying to fight the evil orks to get to the unicorn but theres JUST too many of them and frodo is getting raped by smeagle and i have found i am losing track now... [/quote] Right... I lost track of THAT post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cairna Posted March 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2011 [quote name='Jake Liebenow' timestamp='1299811505' post='2659406'] Right... I lost track of THAT post. [/quote] Hassman is head of Augury and Spirituality in Carpe Diem. He's a bit difficult to comprehend but we've never been led astray with him as our guiding light. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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