Ragashingo Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 [quote name='AirMe' timestamp='1295363744' post='2581350'] If this isn't a valid reason for war, I ask what SirWilliam asked earlier.....what is a valid reason for war anymore? [/quote] Actual spying, preemptive attack, a good honest grudge. Hypocritically using a casual conversation then rebuffing diplomacy is not one however. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Van Hoo III Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 [quote name='Voytek' timestamp='1295359379' post='2581235'] The funny part here is that it isn't a defensive war. Whoops. [/quote] [quote name='neneko' timestamp='1295359756' post='2581242'] Spying isn't a aggressive action anymore? Who keeps changing these rules? [/quote] lol Oh please. I have been in many a back channel in my day and I know damn well that that is just an "easy out". The New Polar Order did not commit an act of aggression. They did not send a spy into VE in an attempt to gain information and corrupt them from the inside. An individual, who was not a member of NpO, had already decided to spy on VE. "They committed an act of aggression and this is a defensive war!" is just an easy way for VE's war to go smoothly and without complications for "that side" of the web. I don't know why anyone signs treaties anymore, there are so many asterisks and easy outs that appear to be acceptable these days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schattenmann Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 [quote name='President Kuse' timestamp='1295363968' post='2581357'] VE exists due to its loyal following, and its sheer force of will to be apart of Planet Bob. We do not claim superiority, We achieve more so for the betterment of our members and the Unity of Green. The day that VE falls to the wayside is the day that I myself will leave because then VE will not have been serving its purpose as it has always been here for. Take this from a long time member of numerous years and have the same amount of time leading our some of the finest Members during war time operations as a Commander. [/quote] VE is a trash zombie alliance refounded by fairweather patriots who have always been scared !@#$less by the prospects of a losing battle and would rather lick the bootheels of their masters than stand up for any principles that were oh-so-easy to type and oh-so-hard to enact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AirMe Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1295364050' post='2581359'] IT boils down to one's understanding of what actually happened here. In the barest sense of the concept, is this a valid reason to go to war? Of course, any alliance is free to sponsor [i]agents provocateur[/i] in order to facilitate a preemptive strike. But, anyone that thinks this was not a setup is just woefully ignorant. [/quote] Does it matter if it is a setup? I mean seriously....he knew VE didn't like them yet he gave lennox advice and guidance anyways. If your paranoia leads you to believe someone is gunning for you, why give them something that would give them what you perceive they wanted? I know what it's like to live with someone gunning for you. And you do everything you can to stay out of the crosshairs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arrnea Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 [quote name='Van Hoo III' timestamp='1295364169' post='2581363']I don't know why anyone signs treaties anymore, there are so many asterisks and easy outs that appear to be acceptable these days.[/quote] I think this is a little harsh, there are some treaties that I would expect to be honored through hell and high water, but certainly the signing of treaties is far too... prolific. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arrnea Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 [quote name='AirMe' timestamp='1295364202' post='2581365']Does it matter if it is a setup? I mean seriously....he knew VE didn't like them yet he gave lennox advice and guidance anyways. If your paranoia leads you to believe someone is gunning for you, why give them something that would give them what you perceive they wanted?[/quote] Except he didn't know Lennox was working for VE (either explicitly, or just working to achieve VE's interests). He [b]thought[/b] he was talking to a friend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AirMe Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Arrnea' timestamp='1295364344' post='2581367'] Except he didn't know Lennox was working for VE (either explicitly, or just working to achieve VE's interests). He [b]thought[/b] he was talking to a friend. [/quote] As the, at least, remotely competent leader that I am, red flags go up when someone asks what alliance they should spy on. Friend or not. EDIT: Red Flags, Sirens, Dancing Bears and Singing Llamas. Edited January 18, 2011 by AirMe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voytek Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1295364050' post='2581359'] IT boils down to one's understanding of what actually happened here. In the barest sense of the concept, is this a valid reason to go to war? Of course, any alliance is free to sponsor [i]agents provocateur[/i] in order to facilitate a preemptive strike. But, anyone that thinks this was not a setup is just woefully ignorant. [/quote] I don't think there's any doubt in anyone's mind that this wasn't a setup on Lennox's part. There's literally nothing other than paranoid ramblings to suggest that VE was a party to his scheme though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragashingo Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 (edited) [quote name='AirMe' timestamp='1295364202' post='2581365'] Does it matter if it is a setup??. [/quote] You are the second person I've seen ask this idiotic question. I suppose it doesn't matter if the difference between being an upstanding honorable alliance or a despicable lowlife opportunists alliance doesn't matter to you. Edited January 18, 2011 by Ragashingo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arrnea Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Voytek' timestamp='1295364398' post='2581370']I don't think there's any doubt in anyone's mind that this wasn't a setup on Lennox's part. There's literally nothing other than paranoid ramblings to suggest that VE was a party to his scheme though.[/quote] Then how did VE find out about the conversation? Get the screenshots? Dajobo sure as hell didn't hand them over. Edited January 18, 2011 by Arrnea Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inferno Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 Some one will die for hes sinns.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voytek Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 [quote name='Arrnea' timestamp='1295364513' post='2581373'] Then how did VE find out about the conversation? Get the screenshots? Dajobo sure as hell didn't hand them over. [/quote] Um, maybe because Lennox told them? Are you even putting in any effort right now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arrnea Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Voytek' timestamp='1295364665' post='2581379']Um, maybe because Lennox told them? Are you even putting in any effort right now?[/quote] And why, oh great Voytek, would Lennox tell VE that he was spying on them? I can think of only one reason... to set Polar up for a fall. If I was VE, I would just have ZI'd Lennox. Instead, they capitalised on it to 'deal with' someone they don't like. Sounds likely that VE put him up to it to me. Edited January 18, 2011 by Arrnea Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schattenmann Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 (edited) [quote name='AirMe' timestamp='1295364202' post='2581365'] Does it matter if it is a setup? I mean seriously....he knew VE didn't like them yet he gave lennox advice and guidance anyways. If your paranoia leads you to believe someone is gunning for you, why give them something that would give them what you perceive they wanted?[/quote] That's what I said, you just put some passion into it. Is it a valid reason for war? [i]Sure[/i] But then again, so is "Impero is an ego-maniacal drunk and I hate his bad grammar and Smooth goes around calling people the n-word and I hate him." [quote name='AirMe' timestamp='1295364202' post='2581365'] I know what it's like to live with someone gunning for you. And you do everything you can to stay out of the crosshairs. [/quote] Give yourself some credit. There was pre-Karma MK doing everything it could, and there was pre-Karma VE doing everything it was told to do. There's a difference in survival styles. Edited January 18, 2011 by Schattenmann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abdur Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Voytek' timestamp='1295364665' post='2581379'] Um, maybe because Lennox told them? Are you even putting in any effort right now? [/quote] You just said that Lennox DIDN'T set this up... Why else would he send the screenshots? edit: ninja'd by Arrnea Edited January 18, 2011 by abdur Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voytek Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 [quote name='Arrnea' timestamp='1295364750' post='2581380']And why, oh great Voytek, would Lennox tell VE that he was spying on them? I can think of only one reason... to set Polar up for a fall.[/quote] [b]that is literally what I already said wow this guy[/b] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AirMe Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 [quote name='Ragashingo' timestamp='1295364497' post='2581372'] You are the second person I've seen ask this idiotic question. I suppose it doesn't matter if the difference between being an upstanding honorable alliance or a despicable lowlife opportunists alliance doesn't matter to you. [/quote] It's not an idiotic question with Polar knowing that VE didn't like them. As I pointed out earlier, when you think the powers that be are gunning for you, you don't participate in actions or discussions that give them exactly what they want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arrnea Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Voytek' timestamp='1295364911' post='2581389'] [b]that is literally what I already said wow this guy[/b] [/quote] Read the second part of the post. I'm not disputing it was a setup on Lennox's part. I'm disputing your assertion that VE had nothing to do with it. If I was VE, I'd be more concerned about the spy. However, they don't seem overly concerned about Lennox himself. Edited January 18, 2011 by Arrnea Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voytek Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 [quote name='abdur' timestamp='1295364868' post='2581386'] You just said that Lennox DIDN'T set this up... Why else would he send the screenshots? edit: ninja'd. [/quote] Clearly my post was too ambiguous or maybe the negatives were a bit too hard for some people. Yes, this was obviously a setup on Lennox's part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schattenmann Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 [quote name='AirMe' timestamp='1295364917' post='2581390'] It's not an idiotic question with Polar knowing that VE didn't like them. As I pointed out earlier, when you think the powers that be are gunning for you, you don't participate in actions or discussions that give them exactly what they want. [/quote] I don't know about you, but I personally got my fill of self-censorship to appease the powers a long timeago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AirMe Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1295365077' post='2581393'] I don't know about you, but I personally got my fill of self-censorship to appease the powers a long timeago. [/quote] That doesn't mean you flush common sense down the toilet. There is a difference between saying "Man, I wish someone would go spy on them to see what their up to." And "Well if you are looking for people to spy on, MK and VE make good targets." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voytek Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Arrnea' timestamp='1295364992' post='2581391]If I was VE, I'd be more concerned about the spy. However, they don't seem overly concerned about Lennox himself.[/quote] [OOC]That would be because he quit. Can't do much to someone without a nation.[/OOC] EDIT: Looks like he came back again. Still, I'd like to see your ideas for dealing with this: http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=441163 Edited January 18, 2011 by Voytek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arrnea Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 (edited) [quote name='AirMe' timestamp='1295365158' post='2581395'] That doesn't mean you flush common sense down the toilet. There is a difference between saying "Man, I wish someone would go spy on them to see what their up to." And "Well if you are looking for people to spy on, MK and VE make good targets." [/quote] What Dajobo said probably wasn't smart, sure... but does it justify VE flushing common sense (diplomacy) down the toilet when NpO try to explain? Certainly not. That dubious honor belongs to VE's stats and political ties... because when you're in that position of power, you can do pretty much whatever you want, so long as it remains convenient for the power structure you're a part of. That's just how it works these days on Planet Bob (unfortunately). [quote name='Voytek' timestamp='1295365306' post='2581399'][OOC]That would be because he quit. Can't do much to someone without a nation.[/OOC][/quote] Fair enough. Still doesn't mean they didn't put him up to it. There is always that possibility. Edited January 18, 2011 by Arrnea Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shahenshah Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 (edited) [quote name='AirMe' timestamp='1295365158' post='2581395'] That doesn't mean you flush common sense down the toilet. There is a difference between saying "Man, I wish someone would go spy on them to see what their up to." And "Well if you are looking for people to spy on, MK and VE make good targets." [/quote] and "oh look at those stolen warchest numbers,, mmkay I gotta keep quite about this " Edited January 18, 2011 by shahenshah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AirMe Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 [quote name='Arrnea' timestamp='1295365314' post='2581400'] What Dajobo said probably wasn't smart, sure... but does it justify VE flushing common sense (diplomacy) down the toilet when NpO try to explain? Certainly not. That dubious honor belongs to VE's stats and political ties. [/quote] I don't disagree that diplomacy should have been attempted first. But I don't run VE. So, that is there decision to make. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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