Markus Wilding Posted February 28, 2011 Report Share Posted February 28, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1298863822' post='2646545'] You're right in some instances Civilian technology may actually be more complex because they do not require the same environmental endurance as military tech allowing them greater complexity due to less abuse. I understand your argument, but you're wrong. We have equally complex equipment under mass manufacture as they have in any missile plant. Computers and microprocessors for example, which require white rooms. In fact, in some instances private technology has outpaced military technology, this is the case for example in the space race.. where Virgin Atlantic seems to have somewhat outpaced even military hardware. So yes, they can be compared. We also have precision civilian technology for geographic mapping purposes.. especially when it comes to identifying the location and drilling points of oil wells. So even in terms of targeting and guidance you could argue that some industries even have similar targeting standards as the military. It'd suck to miss that oil pocket when you drill. [/quote] I understand your argument as well, but I am afraid you are wrong. Your Toyota analogy, while founded in good faith, simply should not and cannot be used as a standard for about ANY level of mass production. Case in point: Prius models DID NOT STOP. On the outside, Toyota mass production looks easy, but when you really take it down step-by-step, you NEED a source of skilled engineers who know what they're doing to be able to make it work effectively. There's a reason that nations like Sudan and Mexico aren't known for making AGM 114 Hellfire missiles - they simply don't have the technological workforce necessary to be able to build them. The same applies to Buddy Rich - he makes playing the drums look like child's play, but not everyone can pick up a pair of sticks and bang out his greatest hits. To expand on that a bit, Toyota mass production and M1A1 Abrams mass production can't be compared. Why? Well, look at it in terms of toasters and well...anything more complex than a toaster used by the military today. You took your analogy one way, but it ended up going the other, and simply put civilian and military mass production/technology cannot be compared. EDIT: Just in case that didn't quite hit home, a RL example from a technician I know from a large aerospace company: A company from Seattle once ordered a component from his company and kept them in Seattle, which over time caused the silver-plated components to corrode. The component company switched the silver-plated components to gold-and-silver plated. These too corroded. It took the course of several years in finding the problem, finding the solution and then finally created a solution that prevented most, but not all, corrosion. This took a VERY long time and an entire team of highly-skilled technicians and engineers to find and fix this problem. Both companies dealt with both civilian and military technology and these components would have been used for both. Edited February 28, 2011 by Markus Wilding Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maelstrom Vortex Posted February 28, 2011 Report Share Posted February 28, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Markus Wilding' timestamp='1298865249' post='2646574'] I understand your argument as well, but I am afraid you are wrong. Your Toyota analogy, while founded in good faith, simply should not and cannot be used as a standard for about ANY level of mass production. Case in point: Prius models DID NOT STOP. On the outside, Toyota mass production looks easy, but when you really take it down step-by-step, you NEED a source of skilled engineers who know what they're doing to be able to make it work effectively. There's a reason that nations like Sudan and Mexico aren't known for making AGM 114 Hellfire missiles - they simply don't have the technological workforce necessary to be able to build them. The same applies to Buddy Rich - he makes playing the drums look like child's play, but not everyone can pick up a pair of sticks and bang out his greatest hits. [/quote] Right, but we're not talking about CNRP nations who do not have the technological means, they do have these means. To refute my point you basically have to take the nation producing the weapon out of the technological era required to have the capability to produce the weapon effectively. Most of the states in CN are well within or beyond that era. They are not Sudan or third world nations. [quote] To expand on that a bit, Toyota mass production and M1A1 Abrams mass production can't be compared. Why? Well, look at it in terms of toasters and well...anything more complex than a toaster used by the military today. You took your analogy one way, but it ended up going the other, and simply put civilian and military mass production/technology cannot be compared. [/quote] There's a need to retool factories to develop different things if they are changed over for production, but once they are tooled they are completely capable at producing things as quickly as you can get them materials to be processed into that vehicle, the workforce needed to construct that vehicle, and as long as you have the pattern for that vehicle. They can do this for as long as this product is contracted or desired to be produced and there are funds flowing to finance that production. Case in point, the conversion of Ford plants into Sherman factories in WW2 en masse. Given a cruise missile is about as complicated and smaller or about the same size as a modern vehicle and even shares many of the same components.. circuits, circuit boards, processors, on board computers.. as a modern car.. it can be said they could be produced at roughly an equivalent speed. The U.S. likewise produced a tank on par with current technological standards for vehicles of its day as quickly as it could produce cars, resulting in very large numbers of Shermans in service by war's end. [quote] EDIT: Just in case that didn't quite hit home, a RL example from a technician I know from a large aerospace company: A company from Seattle once ordered a component from his company and kept them in Seattle, which over time caused the silver-plated components to corrode. The component company switched the silver-plated components to gold-and-silver plated. These too corroded. It took the course of several years in finding the problem, finding the solution and then finally created a solution that prevented most, but not all, corrosion. This took a VERY long time and an entire team of highly-skilled technicians and engineers to find and fix this problem. Both companies dealt with both civilian and military technology and these components would have been used for both. [/quote] Right, you're talking about a case where the technology is still being explored or there is a technological barrier or limitation or a labor manpower and expertise limitation. That isn't the case with most CNRP states involved in the most recent discussions. I do agree though that if the nations did have a technological hurdle to overcome producing cruise missiles quickly and efficiently would be very difficult. Anyone with modern tech, however, should have this capability. The states in questions have, have had for some time, and continue to produce cruise missile weapons as a known technology. The one limitation that prevents the U.S. from actually stockpiling mass quantities of cruise missiles is a lack of need, a lack of budget, and maintenance costs of such weapons in large numbers requires additional storage facilities that at the current time are beyond necessary. Edited February 28, 2011 by Maelstrom Vortex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaiserMelech Mikhail Posted February 28, 2011 Report Share Posted February 28, 2011 One thing you're all forgetting is that Malatose's entire nation just got done with it's let's-all-kill-each-other phase (pfft teenagers), so it should really be a while before he regains the ability to build anything en masse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoot Zoot Posted February 28, 2011 Report Share Posted February 28, 2011 I re iterate. Dies it actually bloody matter? Munitions have never ever ever mattered in cnrp before so why now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triyun Posted February 28, 2011 Report Share Posted February 28, 2011 [img]http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/9301/sigint.png[/img] Requesting dual spy roll. Both to break ciphers of Republique du Fleuve. If the first one is successful (which I would assume I would know IC) please instead roll on locations of uranium enrichment facilities for SAT INT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centurius Posted February 28, 2011 Report Share Posted February 28, 2011 (edited) 2 rolls on the FRA please. [img]http://i54.tinypic.com/1571af6.png[/img] Edit: One to make pictures of military trainigs, war preparation, etc. and one to retrieve data about weapon transports to the FRA. Edited February 28, 2011 by Centurius Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king of cochin Posted February 28, 2011 Report Share Posted February 28, 2011 [quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1298912003' post='2646882'] [img]http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/9301/sigint.png[/img] Requesting dual spy roll. Both to break ciphers of Republique du Fleuve. If the first one is successful (which I would assume I would know IC) please instead roll on locations of uranium enrichment facilities for SAT INT. [/quote] [IMG]http://i710.photobucket.com/albums/ww110/gokulvarmank/TriyunRoll.jpg[/IMG] 70% Odds. 0-30 is a fail, 31-100 is an win. You have an pair of wins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king of cochin Posted February 28, 2011 Report Share Posted February 28, 2011 [quote name='Centurius' timestamp='1298917028' post='2646917'] 2 rolls on the FRA please. [img]http://i54.tinypic.com/1571af6.png[/img] Edit: One to make pictures of military trainigs, war preparation, etc. and one to retrieve data about weapon transports to the FRA. [/quote] [IMG]http://i710.photobucket.com/albums/ww110/gokulvarmank/CentRoll.jpg[/IMG] 70% Odds. 0-30 is a fail, 31-100 is an win. You have an pair of fails. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iKrolm Posted February 28, 2011 Report Share Posted February 28, 2011 [quote name='king of cochin' timestamp='1298917509' post='2646925'] 70% Odds. 0-30 is a fail, 31-100 is an win. You have an pair of fails. [/quote] It should be 1-30 and 31-100, otherwise you've got 101% Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AironthFlamewing Posted February 28, 2011 Report Share Posted February 28, 2011 Either way he scores it both still fail Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beauty Posted February 28, 2011 Report Share Posted February 28, 2011 [IMG]http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/4669/warjb.jpg[/IMG] 2 Rolls on Gathering Military Base Locations and Military Intelligence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoot Zoot Posted February 28, 2011 Report Share Posted February 28, 2011 [IMG]http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb144/zoot_zoot/Spyodds-2.jpg[/IMG] Two rolls to locate his naval fleet and airforce bases. 70% Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justinian the Mighty Posted February 28, 2011 Report Share Posted February 28, 2011 http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w88/Anchohombre/CyberNations/spyroll.png Requesting two spy rolls. Both to break Fizzy's ciphers. If the first one is successful then please roll on locations of uranium enrichment facilities for SAT INT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Timmy Posted February 28, 2011 Report Share Posted February 28, 2011 [IMG]http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/1262/spyroll.png[/IMG] Two rolls against fizzy, one for a DDoS attack on his military communications one infiltrate his nuclear power plant servicing his capital city and cause the centerfuges to overheat and explode. RP here: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=95400&view=findpost&p=2647210 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fizzydog Posted March 1, 2011 Report Share Posted March 1, 2011 Wot nuclear power planet? None exist in my country, and I most certainly never RP'd building one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maelstrom Vortex Posted March 1, 2011 Report Share Posted March 1, 2011 [IMG]http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/8598/spyoddsfizzy.jpg[/IMG] Need 2 spy rolls regarding this thread: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=99257&view=findpost&p=2647215 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fizzydog Posted March 1, 2011 Report Share Posted March 1, 2011 It seems everyone is out to get ole' Fizzy. Although, by satellites I certainly hope you mean someone else's. I have none. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Timmy Posted March 1, 2011 Report Share Posted March 1, 2011 Oh ok, just make it so it shuts down a normal power plant then, I'm assuming you have one of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoot Zoot Posted March 1, 2011 Report Share Posted March 1, 2011 Fizzy, if you have no nuclear plants, how did you develop a nuclear bomb? Also those planes u got from schnider, are from a nation with cold war tech, less than you. How they are more advanced than mine I dont know. Secondly, the only nuke you have role-played is on your subs, which are getting slaughtered by my attack subs and ASW helicopters. You need to respond to that attack. Please ninja edit your post and get casualties posted. Btw for the record, I won't be replying ICly until tomorrow because I've just been reduced to using my mobile to write this post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maelstrom Vortex Posted March 1, 2011 Report Share Posted March 1, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Fizzydog' timestamp='1298937810' post='2647219'] It seems everyone is out to get ole' Fizzy. Although, by satellites I certainly hope you mean someone else's. I have none. [/quote] [IMG]http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/7381/fizzyhassats.jpg[/IMG] You has sats. Edited March 1, 2011 by Maelstrom Vortex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fizzydog Posted March 1, 2011 Report Share Posted March 1, 2011 [quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1298938173' post='2647227'] [IMG]http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/7381/fizzyhassats.jpg[/IMG] You has sats. [/quote] Never launched them. But I love the image name. :3 And Soldania Tech Level =/= Soldanian Modern Arms. Shame about the nuke, could've been fun. At least i have my VX bombs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sargun II Posted March 1, 2011 Report Share Posted March 1, 2011 Actually, yes. Anything his company makes is tied to his tech level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fizzydog Posted March 1, 2011 Report Share Posted March 1, 2011 Never realized that. Oh well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maelstrom Vortex Posted March 1, 2011 Report Share Posted March 1, 2011 [quote name='Fizzydog' timestamp='1298938665' post='2647240'] Never realized that. Oh well. [/quote] Also, Zoot says you used the sats on him during your war with him. That means they be operational if that is the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triyun Posted March 1, 2011 Report Share Posted March 1, 2011 [quote name='Fizzydog' timestamp='1298937707' post='2647217'] Wot nuclear power planet? None exist in my country, and I most certainly never RP'd building one. [/quote] Nuclear weapons require nuclear reactors, which means power plants. Some nuclear power plants used to develop weapons are too small to provide commercial usage but you need a reactor and a centrifuge to make highly enriched uranium and plutonium. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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