Keve69 Posted January 9, 2011 Report Share Posted January 9, 2011 [quote name='Caffine1' timestamp='1294553392' post='2569387'] What part is pre-Karma Draconian terms? There's no permanent anything. We're not warring the whole alliance. Their leader gets ZI'd, and the aggrieved alliance gets $36 million. No forced disbandment, no permanent expulsion. [/quote] No permanent expulsion? I think you don't want to bring that fact up as it *was* the case until a few hours ago. Something you decided to rescind, *probably* so you could parade that in front of everybody as you are doing right now. Also, you might want to tell the public, you paragon of justice, how that 36 million isn't really intended as reps for AiD but is actually the cost of letting other government officials of UINE (totally unrelated with the rogues) go without a ZI. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
memoryproblems Posted January 9, 2011 Report Share Posted January 9, 2011 [quote name='DictatatorDan' timestamp='1294552115' post='2569357'] [color="#FF0000"]One would think that with a collection of powerful allies, like NpO and it's affiliates, that UINE could at least secure a more favorable conclusion, rather than buckling to the whims of [b]traditionally cowardly alliances like Echelon.[/b] Congrats on having equally cowardly allies. Those that have pressed this agreement are equally at fault. These terms reek of pre-Karma stench.[/color] [/quote] I would [i]love[/i] to hear the facts you used to make that statement. Oh, I get it, your still upset over being on the wrong side when somebody had to choose between allies? Please, get over it. Your fabricating your insults at best, your rhetoric reeks of butthurt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EgoFreaky Posted January 9, 2011 Report Share Posted January 9, 2011 [quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1294549717' post='2569324'] Overkill, is an understatement. All this crap for an alliance that won't exist in a couple of months. AiD, just disband now. [/quote] lol you do know they're muuuch older then your alliance right? I think even older then R&R. [quote name='TheListener' timestamp='1294552304' post='2569363'] They reek of Pre-Karma stench because they were given by alliances who hid under the guise of Karma yet still have provided Draconian terms to any and all opposition since. [/quote] Wait :| seriously? You do know R&R took reps from echelon after karma right? As in we where on opposite sides. And any and all opposition since? I'm pretty sure we've given white peace to everyone but NPO in all our wars so far except for the 1 tech from echelon that is. Do you even think before you type? [quote name='DictatatorDan' timestamp='1294553299' post='2569383'] [color="#FF0000"]Regardless of whether or not I agree with the aggrieved parties complaints, accepting pre-Karma draconian terms to quench the blood lust of a cowardly alliance like Echelon is unacceptable. Giving into the juvenile desires of others at the expense of your allies is the very definition of cowardice.[/color] [/quote] Funny thing about that famous echelon blood lust.. They actually held us back several times, we where also the last to accept this agreement because we where aiming much higher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Archduke Posted January 9, 2011 Report Share Posted January 9, 2011 [quote name='Moe Szyslak' timestamp='1294551292' post='2569347'] That doesn't sound like Keve at all [/quote] Hear hear! Could someone explain how 'he reneged on several deals and was generally a snake throughout'? I just don't get that bit. All the rest makes sense. Commonsense, actually... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master-Debater Posted January 9, 2011 Report Share Posted January 9, 2011 [quote name='EgoFreaky' timestamp='1294553902' post='2569400'] Funny thing about that famous echelon blood lust.. They actually held us back several times, we where also the last to accept this agreement because we where aiming much higher. [/quote] Im so glad you openly are admiting that you wanted to extort UINE. Step one is admitting you have a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheListener Posted January 9, 2011 Report Share Posted January 9, 2011 [quote name='Master-Debater' timestamp='1294554083' post='2569405'] Im so glad you openly are admiting that you wanted to extort UINE. Step one is admitting you have a problem. [/quote] Step two is getting some help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DictatatorDan Posted January 9, 2011 Report Share Posted January 9, 2011 [quote name='EgoFreaky' timestamp='1294553902' post='2569400'] Funny thing about that famous echelon blood lust.. They actually held us back several times, we where also the last to accept this agreement because we where aiming much higher. [/quote] [color="#FF0000"]I sincerely apologize for believing that R&R had more class. I promise I wont make the same mistake in the future.[/color] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monster Posted January 9, 2011 Report Share Posted January 9, 2011 R&R has all the class in the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xiphosis Posted January 9, 2011 Report Share Posted January 9, 2011 [quote name='Master-Debater' timestamp='1294554083' post='2569405'] Im so glad you openly are admiting that you wanted to extort UINE. Step one is admitting you have a problem. [/quote] Know what I call extortion? I call extortion a pathetic, insignificant alliance like UINE raiding a tiny alliance like AiD and then, when AiD requests reparations, they respond [and I'm quoting here]: You can either do 3m/100 tech deals with us, or "war it out of us." That's what I call extortion. I'm so, [b]so[/b] sorry for UINE that AiD happened to have friends they couldn't push around so easily, but Keve should be thanking his mother$%&@ing lucky stars I'm not writing his terms - and that instead, he gets these. He doesn't deserve them, and yet he still complains. SIRIUS clearly wanted a war out of this, and why is a mystery to me, but if you guys really support some crap like that then you're all failures and deserve all the misery association with folks like that bring down on you. It won't bring much of anything else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheListener Posted January 9, 2011 Report Share Posted January 9, 2011 [quote name='DictatatorDan' timestamp='1294554165' post='2569409'] [color="#FF0000"]I sincerely apologize for believing that R&R had more class. I promise I wont make the same mistake in the future.[/color] [/quote] I think this is the second time in as many days that someone is calling out RnR for being [i]Classy[/i], I guess everyone assumed RnR was better than this. I'm sure we all know what assuming does though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master-Debater Posted January 9, 2011 Report Share Posted January 9, 2011 [quote name='DictatatorDan' timestamp='1294554165' post='2569409'] [color="#FF0000"]I sincerely apologize for believing that R&R had more class. I promise I wont make the same mistake in the future.[/color] [/quote] Im not sure that blaming them is the right way to go though. Probably should ask who their puppet masters are first before you decide if they have any class or not. On second though, puppet masters aside, RNR has no class. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheListener Posted January 9, 2011 Report Share Posted January 9, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Xiphosis' timestamp='1294554303' post='2569411'] SIRIUS clearly wanted a war out of this, and why is a mystery to me, but if you guys really support some crap like that then you're all failures and deserve all the misery association with folks like that bring down on you. It won't bring much of anything else. [/quote] Correction we SIRIUSLY wanted a war out of this [quote]You can either do 3m/100 tech deals with us, or "war it out of us." [/quote] On a more serious note who in UINE stated this, since you're quoting it. Edited January 9, 2011 by TheListener Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EgoFreaky Posted January 9, 2011 Report Share Posted January 9, 2011 [quote name='TheListener' timestamp='1294554354' post='2569413'] I think this is the second time in as many days that someone is calling out RnR for being [i]Classy[/i], I guess everyone assumed RnR was better than this. I'm sure we all know what assuming does though. [/quote] Well the people that DO matter still <3 us so what's the problem here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xiphosis Posted January 9, 2011 Report Share Posted January 9, 2011 You know what's funnier? A lot of the same people playing the moralist card would be doing the exact same thing if I pulled half of what UINE did to AiD on UINE myself, but they see and make no distinction because AiD didn't run to the OWF with it and, besides that, a lot of those who're posting have some sort of treaty relationship with UINE. Funny how FA can really blind those principles you folks like to tout as the foundation of them ivory towers, isn't it? Funny to me anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9dj12 Posted January 9, 2011 Report Share Posted January 9, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Xiphosis' timestamp='1294554303' post='2569411']SIRIUS clearly wanted a war out of this, and why is a mystery to me, but if you guys really support some crap like that then you're all failures and deserve all the misery association with folks like that bring down on you. It won't bring much of anything else. [/quote] Ah, crap, he caught us there. Edited January 9, 2011 by 9dj12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DictatatorDan Posted January 9, 2011 Report Share Posted January 9, 2011 [quote name='Xiphosis' timestamp='1294554303' post='2569411'] SIRIUS clearly wanted a war out of this, and why is a mystery to me, but if you guys really support some crap like that then you're all failures and deserve all the misery association with folks like that bring down on you. It won't bring much of anything else. [/quote] [color="#FF0000"]Shush...we all wanted a damn war. Instead we get a feeble attempt at diplomacy. What happened to bros before flat-headed angled gardening implements? Brinksmanship is dead.[/color] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uranus Posted January 9, 2011 Report Share Posted January 9, 2011 Well these terms are really terrible. I guess we should have asked for reps from AiD when your member decided to rogue us a couple months ago. Really now things aren't done this way anymore, but I guess if that's how you're going to roll. Enjoy your ZI of an uninvolved nation, undeserved reps, and maybe next time you'll get the whole permanent banning of a member thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lusitan Posted January 9, 2011 Report Share Posted January 9, 2011 Simultaneously seeing Xiphosis agreeing with Echelon and myself agreeing with Xiphosis is weirder than I can handle in one day. UINE and Keve showed an absolute lack of common sense through all of this. I can understand taking a stand when you have the moral highground, but doing it just because.. well for no reason at all is stupid. Not only that, you risked reducing your strongest ally, NpO, to a smoking crater in a war where one of the alliances fighting you had a direct connection to a cluster of alliances that at least gave indication wouldn't mind smashing said allies of yours. You proved yourselves to be a liability to your allies while at the same time managing to somehow worse the outcome of an agreement you had done before. It was dumb, all of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keve69 Posted January 9, 2011 Report Share Posted January 9, 2011 [quote name='Xiphosis' timestamp='1294554303' post='2569411'] Know what I call extortion? I call extortion a pathetic, insignificant alliance like UINE raiding a tiny alliance like AiD and then, when AiD requests reparations, they respond [and I'm quoting here]: You can either do 3m/100 tech deals with us, or "war it out of us." That's what I call extortion. I'm so, [b]so[/b] sorry for UINE that AiD happened to have friends they couldn't push around so easily, but Keve should be thanking his mother$%&@ing lucky stars I'm not writing his terms - and that instead, he gets these. He doesn't deserve them, and yet he still complains. SIRIUS clearly wanted a war out of this, and why is a mystery to me, but if you guys really support some crap like that then you're all failures and deserve all the misery association with folks like that bring down on you. It won't bring much of anything else. [/quote] You see the issue with this is that: UINE did not raid AiD, a few members decided to go rogue, thus UINE would not pay reps for them because we weren't interested in saving rogues from what they were supposed to get (and deserved). AiD clearly stated on multiple instances that they weren't interested in attacking the rogues, I worked my ass off to get those rogues to start peacing out as per AiDs demands. The rogues didn't want to pay reps and rather fight to ZI, something which went against AiD's number 1 consideration: ending the conflict. I offered to help out the nations attacked by filling them up with tech deals I'm not sure where in this whole sequence of events the tech deals at the end become reps, those tech deals were me trying to help AiD in a situation I had no control over. The fact that UINE was not responsible for the raids means that they did in fact have the two choices you mentioned: attack the rogues or get peace and some tech because I couldn't force reps out of the rogues anyways, because quite honestly I didn't have to propose anything at all other than letting them attack the rogues. The fact that I did try to help AiD has somehow been used to paint me as responsible for the attacks. If you could elaborate on why I'd love that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xiphosis Posted January 9, 2011 Report Share Posted January 9, 2011 [quote]and maybe next time you'll get the whole permanent banning of a member thing. [/quote] Cute, but that was never one of the terms AiD's side wanted. I clarified that myself in negotiations, and when it somehow found it's way into the final set of terms R&R ensured it was removed. I'm sorry we deprived you of some cheap moral outrage, though. Try harder next time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delta1212 Posted January 9, 2011 Report Share Posted January 9, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Keve69' timestamp='1294555130' post='2569442'] You see the issue with this is that: UINE did not raid AiD, a few members decided to go rogue, thus UINE would not pay reps for them because we weren't interested in saving rogues from what they were supposed to get (and deserved). AiD clearly stated on multiple instances that they weren't interested in attacking the rogues, I worked my ass off to get those rogues to start peacing out as per AiDs demands. The rogues didn't want to pay reps and rather fight to ZI, something which went against AiD's number 1 consideration: ending the conflict. I offered to help out the nations attacked by filling them up with tech deals I'm not sure where in this whole sequence of events the tech deals at the end become reps, those tech deals were me trying to help AiD in a situation I had no control over. The fact that UINE was not responsible for the raids means that they did in fact have the two choices you mentioned: attack the rogues or get peace and some tech because I couldn't force reps out of the rogues anyways, because quite honestly I didn't have to propose anything at all other than letting them attack the rogues. The fact that I did try to help AiD has somehow been used to paint me as responsible for the attacks. If you could elaborate on why I'd love that. [/quote] You have to actually kick people to declare them rogues you aren't responsible for. It took forever for you to cede that point and then even longer to actually remove them once you had. You are criminally incompetent. Edited January 9, 2011 by Delta1212 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xiphosis Posted January 9, 2011 Report Share Posted January 9, 2011 [quote name='Keve69' timestamp='1294555130' post='2569442'] You see the issue with this is that: UINE did not raid AiD, a few members decided to go rogue, thus UINE would not pay reps for them because we weren't interested in saving rogues from what they were supposed to get (and deserved). AiD clearly stated on multiple instances that they weren't interested in attacking the rogues, I worked my ass off to get those rogues to start peacing out as per AiDs demands.[/quote] So many fun, conflicting things in this single paragraph. Let us begin dissecting your contradictions: [list=1] [*]UINE didn't raid AiD, just five people on your alliance affiliation including some lower level war government did? Okay. [*]You considered them rogues? Then how would you go about getting rogues to peace out - rogues are not under any one alliances control. [*]And if they're rogues, why did they retain their masks and full membership permissions on your forums up until oh, yesterday? [/list] You're correct; AiD did state they did not want to attack the members in question. You know why? Go take a look at their stats, and you'll know why. They wanted damages and to be rebuilt, nothing more. Any alliance worth it's salt in that situation either: A) Makes the members in question pay reps, or B) Expels them and attacks them for failing to follow direct orders. UINE did neither of these things. You refused to pay reps, you refused to handle a mess you enabled. By contrast, you: A) Didn't expel them. B) Didn't force them to pay reps. C) As an "act of mercy" on AiD offered to let them sell your miserable little alliance technology at a rate that would earn your members a good profit. Pathetic. [quote]The fact that UINE was not responsible for the raids[/quote] No, let's make this clear. So long as the five individuals in question remained members of UINE, you remained responsible for what they did. That is how it works. [quote]I couldn't force reps out of the rogues anyways, because quite honestly I didn't have to propose anything at all other than letting them attack the rogues.[/quote] No, you didn't have to - until you found out they had bigger friends watching out for them. That's the definition of bullying; treating someone one way when you think you have an advantage over them, and another when that advantage dries up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keve69 Posted January 9, 2011 Report Share Posted January 9, 2011 [quote name='Xiphosis' timestamp='1294555150' post='2569444'] Cute, but that was never one of the terms AiD's side wanted. I clarified that myself in negotiations, and when it somehow found it's way into the final set of terms R&R ensured it was removed. I'm sorry we deprived you of some cheap moral outrage, though. Try harder next time. [/quote] Yes, we are *clearly* making this up... /rollseyes [quote][17:49] <EgoFreaky[RnR|Tri]> First off the previous agreement will stand, which was the 5 rogues ZI'ed and expelled, [b]SorelC permanently expelled[/b]. We already offered 4 rogues a reduced sentence to 1 week of war instead of ZI though before this went on[/quote] P.S: The bolding is mine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supercoolyellow Posted January 9, 2011 Report Share Posted January 9, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Xiphosis' timestamp='1294555735' post='2569455'] You're correct; AiD did state they did not want to attack the members in question. You know why? Go take a look at their stats, and you'll know why. [/quote] Gee, isn't that what they have allies for, when their stats alone can't get the job done? Oh wait, apparently we sign treaties so our bigger friends can go showboating about the OWF. I would like to remind some people here about what has happened. Five members of UINE attacked AID, and it was the wrong thing to do. They knew what they were doing and so deserved to be punished for it. Apparently a few alliances would rather not punish the people who are in the wrong, but just use this all as en excuse to go after an alliance for God knows why. I still cannot believe Keve is getting ZIed when the just a few days ago RnR and Echelon were announcing ZIing the actual rogues was too much. [color="#1C2837"][size="2"][quote name="delta1212"] You have to actually kick people to declare them rogues you aren't responsible for. It took forever for you to cede that point and then even longer to actually remove them once you had. You are criminally incompetent. [/quote][/size][/color] [color="#1C2837"] [/color] [color="#1C2837"][size="2"]Why would it matter if he kicks them or not? Either way, if after they are declared rogue they are expelled, or not, RnR got to get AID justice, but apparently justice isn't enough.[/size][/color] Edited January 9, 2011 by supercoolyellow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xiphosis Posted January 9, 2011 Report Share Posted January 9, 2011 Keve got ZI'd because he has been entirely two-faced throughout weeks and several rounds of negotiations [around 5, near as I can tell]. For instance; Round 4 was mediated by GOD/NpO. The deal was, Keve [acknowledging they were rogues] would boot the five from UINE and RnR would take care of it. They could reapply after the fact, if they chose. A day after the fact, all still had masks. When this was brought up, their primary masks were removed and the primary permissions they had were shifted to secondary - under the mistaken belief they weren't public as well. Keve has behaved like a snake, and his ZI was added to the terms because of it. Had he negotiated like any even average leader, and in good faith, this would've been solved a very long time ago. [quote]Gee, isn't that what they have allies for, when their stats alone can't get the job done?[/quote] AiD, quite unlike UINE, was very reluctant to turn to their friends in their moment of weakness and vulnerability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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