The Archduke

[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1307805673' post='2729206'] You also thought you would have payed those reps 6 months ago. Thought you were going to remove Keve on your own, but only started after a war broke out because of him... Then you thought you were going to coup him to save your own skin... [/quote] Interesting... a constitutional change in accordance with the previous constitution and stated constitutional convention now constitutes a coup. And of course we removed Keve after we discovered he made a really big mistake. Are you suggesting it would have been more appropriate to remove him before? Just because we didn't possess foresight earlier is no excuse for demanding it with the advantage of hindsight. The reason why MCXA has not yet given us much aid yet is because we haven't yet asked for much... members seem too proud to accept their great generosity, or wish to ensure that other members more in need get assistance first.

[quote name='Lusitan' timestamp='1307772786' post='2729066'] This event allowed him to re-incorporate some charter changes he made 2 years ago and were removed last year. Key word being [b]allowed[/b]. Hence my observation that it almost seems he couldn't implement them on his own and the RnR terms gave him an excuse to do so going around whatever that was not allowing him to. [/quote] Just because something's now 'allowed' doesn't mean it wasn't earlier... and I think we were going to re-incorporate those changes before we signed the peace treaty anyway. [quote name='supercoolyellow' timestamp='1307771430' post='2729052'] Nah, he meant UINE is a micro. They've been knocked around so much the past few months that they are kinda at that size atm, but they will rebuild. Especially with the help of MCXA banks. [/quote]

[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1307717900' post='2728620'] Your willingness to rectify the situation is 6 months past due. When the entire OWF agrees that you are in the wrong and well-deserving of a war, you should probably take a hint and quit while you're behind on that one. ... After agreeing to the terms provided bilatteraly to end the conflict within only a couple days when it well could have gone for far, far longer, that they are all of a sudden unnacceptable, but apparently not enough to break them. Then comes the claim that the war wasn't justified at all, that you were forced to accept the terms. [/quote] The 6 months delay was approved by all parties involved for various good reasons, and we were a bit busy with rebuilding (even though we caused two of our enemies to disband/peace out, we still bled a lot). A bit too busy to be keeping an eye on what our Emperor was doing: decent chaps don't go around checking up on people who they're pretty sure are decent chaps (particularly when they're busy doing other things). And anyway, the money has been repaid now. To clarify what I've said before, I'm sure to an extent the war was justified, but I'm also sure that to another extent the war wasn't. As I've agreed, in some ways the treaty was very sensible and R&R showed excellent restraint, but in other ways this wasn't the case. It depends on contentious standards. I think Azaghul summed it up quite sensibly (http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=102471&st=300&p=2728274&#entry2728274). 'Do something about it' - yes, we'll keep on discussing it if need be. Restrained discussions can be less damaging to all parties involved.

[quote name='MinuteVariance' timestamp='1307352976' post='2725286'] Up front I'd like to apologise to my friends in UINE for what I am about to say by way of an apology to RnR and the AiD guys who are the real injured party here. [/quote] Yes, that's true to an extent, and this incident may even have made our alliance more active again, but still, if there's ever a future incident of this sort, could the guilty party have negotiations before the war, a cease-fire a bit sooner when they indicate they are willing to rectify matters, and sovereignty/independence-infringing terms expiring after a year or some other fixed amount of time? Please don't think I'm being ungrateful to RnR for only asking us what we were prepared to do, which was very kind of them. However, I think a few small improvements to this way of working could still be made. But at least we're not wasting each other's time and money dragging out a nearly pointless war over 21 million any longer, for which I would like to thank all people who showed some restraint.

Concerning the changing mind/hectic incident, I was attempting to ascertain whether it was legal to impeach our Emperor. I wanted time for us to work out if possible, and then (if it was) we'd need time to set up a court and carry out proceedings. When you want time, you want a cease-fire, and so you put up an argument for it. This I did. Not once did I say that I wanted the Emperor to be expelled from the alliance - indeed, many times I made a point of saying we were not doing so. So you can forget the Nobel prize award. What I can't understand is that RnR didn't give us a cease-fire for negotiations once they saw that the government was attempting to rectify the matter. It might have looked like they were trying to destroy us and consolidate their reputation? Anyway, it may well be that these terms will need some revision later - even if we were already complying with them, some future freedom to choose our path later would be nice and probably appropriate. I won't go on to mention those words that AmbroseIV hates, in thanks for RnR finally agreeing to be decent and negotiate.

I agree we should get our sovereignty back later with a revised treaty, but we were mostly planning to do what the clauses stated anyway in the short term. Of course this isn't a long term solution, but it'll pass for the moment.

Wabooz, Keve didn't have the power to stop himself from being impeached. Please see http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=102418&st=40&p=2726869&#entry2726869. That should make the situation perfectly clear. I apologize for not clarifying the means of constitutional change earlier, I should have know some people would be curious. By the way, the reforms in the UINE charter were already made or were in the process of being made when the terms were sent to us by RnR. Very kind of them to ask us for things we were already doing, or had already done, it makes life so much simpler. [quote name='R3nowned' timestamp='1307508600' post='2726683'] RnR just helped turn your alliance around. I would expect some thanks to them. [/quote] Thanks, for starting a war over 21 million without any notice and then delaying a cease-fire with ridiculous demands after a) we comply or announce our intent to comply with their final clauses and b) we agree to pay them their reparations? You must be joking. Not that I find it very funny.

[quote name='Baltus' timestamp='1307363602' post='2725330'] They couped him. It really doesn't get any simpler than that. They were being attacked because of his folly, so they got rid of him, but he may come back once all of this is over. I would suggest, that if you coup someone, keep him out. UINE, you have always disappointed me, but I hope that you shall move forward. Good Luck, etc [/quote] A coup? What? After it was seen that Keve69 was absent and unable to lead UINE, we decided that Keve69 was absent and unable to lead UINE, so therefore MajorLu was acting Emperor as he was second in command. Using the Emperor's powers as acting Emperor, he revised the constitution, including a clause to set a precedent for impeaching the Emperor. This impeachment clause was made so it would be difficult to remove Emperors, so that we could only impeach them if we are pretty sure they make a bad mistake. All of this was perfectly in accordance with our former constitution, which is undoubtedly the one that Haflinger saw on the wiki page. Therefore it cannot possibly be a coup, unless your definition of coup includes every change a government ever makes to a constitution. Now I'm sure some people will still want to say that it's a coup, but our consciences can be clear (and mine certainly is): everything was managed perfectly legally - we were very careful about that.

[quote name='askani the rotund' timestamp='1307528053' post='2726850'] We saw the need for change and had changed the charter prior to Keve's impeachment. [/quote] To clarify the situation properly, after it was seen that Keve69 was absent and unable to lead UINE, MajorLu was acting Emperor, and using the Emperor's powers as acting Emperor, he revised the constitution, including a clause to set a precedent for impeaching the Emperor. All of this was perfectly in accordance with our former constitution. [quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1307522749' post='2726833'] [00:26] <+The_Archduke> well, we've got to do this in as legal a way as possible Snip [00:26] <+The_Archduke> so could we please have time to do the job properly Snip [00:26] <+The_Archduke> and make sure that if we do get rid of Keve, he's gone for good Snip [00:41] <+The_Archduke> I'll go to the forums to announce that 'the Emperor has been found incapable (at least temporarily) of governing in accordance with international law and is facing impeachment under internal proceedings' Really? This was about 5 minutes after the DoW in #UINE and later by the MoFA of UINE. This must be some strange use of the words, "defending him to the hilt," that I was not previously aware of! [/quote] Please don't take my words out of context. 'Properly' clearly means legally. 'Gone for good' means gone from Emperor, which he has, and the use of the word 'if' should indicate that I was speaking hypothetically, and requesting time to allow for proper legal proceedings. If RnR had been a bit less impetuous, we might have had time to deal with the situation without having to ask for it. And as for defending him to the hilt, he's still in UINE, no ZI or anything. He's just not leading us any more. I believe that is exactly what Reghar said... 'we defended him to the hilt as RnR wanted expulsion from the alliance. Which we would not allow'. So there you go, I hope that clarifies things.

Good morning/afternoon/evening/night from UINE! Briefly and simply, His Imperial Majesty the Emperor Keve69 of the Union of Integrated National Entities has been found (at least temporarily) incapable of governing the Union of Integrated National Entities in accordance with internal and international law (found incapable by common consent, unanimous amongst all Ministers present at an emergency meeting). Subsequently, he is facing impeachment under internal proceedings. The next in line of command, our Prime Minister MajorLu, is therefore temporary acting leader in accordance with the Constitution. The result of the impeachment will be announced when the impeachment is completed, if the international community is interested? To clarify the situation: It is not impossible that His Imperial Majesty the Emperor Keve69 may be required to abdicate. It is also not impossible that His Imperial Majesty the Emperor Keve69 may be found to be again capable of governing the Union of Integrated National Entities in the near or far future. Notwithstanding the temporary absence of His Imperial Majesty the Emperor, the government will continue to function as per usual. All treaties remain in effect. The only real difference is that our Emperor is temporarily unable to lead the government. We look forward to knowing whether this absence will be indefinite or not. We have the honour to remain, The Government of the Union of Integrated National Entities

Congratulations!

[quote name='ImperialCubanacan' timestamp='1297009568' post='2622195'] So how's the war going so far? (serious question) [/quote] I think we're winning, judging by the fact that I only heard about this war half an hour ago. You can tell their attack made a great impression on us. We'll probably accept TGE's surrender, even though I think we're getting more out of the war than they are! Compare our NS charts: they lost around 10% in 3 days fighting and we lost about 1%. If we're lucky, this war may answer an important question: is joke warfare an appropriate future standard? I suppose it's possible they got off to a bad start... or maybe it's a clever ruse?

The rampaging boxers?

I remember the last war we fought against SCLB. The box wasn't seaworthy. I still don't think it is!

[quote name='Ellis' timestamp='1294664187' post='2571015'] Is being removed from the alliance a punishment in your constitution? [/quote] No. This is the part of UINE's Constitution that's relevant: [i]Section VI – War and Tech Raiding: In times of war ... Signatory members who wish to engage in tech raids have the right to do so, however, several conditions apply: firstly, in this case war can only be declared on a nation which is not part of an alliance. Secondly, the alliance is not responsible for any aggressive operations conducted by its members against non-aligned nations and, as such, disassociates itself completely from these conflicts. Thirdly, the government of UINE may punish any nation which uses excessive force on an offensive tech raid as it sees fit and fourthly, any reparations that must be paid by a UINE nation who went on the offensive against an ill-advised target are the SOLE responsibility of the raiding nation.[/i] Therefore you can understand that some of the demands seemed slightly peculiar to parts of UINE. Edit: [quote name='Ellis' timestamp='1294664187' post='2571015'] Being declared a rogue and losing your membership in said alliance pretty much means losing your [b]member[/b] mask, even if you then get a 'good friend of UINE' mask which gives you the exact same access [/quote] That is one way of looking at it, although it could be said that the member mask means that you are a member of the forum? I don't know what our official position on that one is. 2nd Edit: I wonder if we shouldn't ban tech raiding altogether, it causes so many problems.

[quote name='Kevin McDonald' timestamp='1294646699' post='2570932'] What you mean is the next time 5 members of AiD, including lower gov, raids members of a recognized AA and then renegs on multiple negotiated settlements, the leader can be ZI'd. [/quote] Do you mind if I quickly rephrase that from my understanding? 'What you mean is the next time 5 members of AiD, including lower gov, raids members of a recognized AA and then an irresponsible government minister invents a settlement without permission, and the leader forgets to remove around 7% of the mask[sup]*[/sup], the leader can be ZI'd.' Therein lies the disagreement. If I was neutral, I would say it just depends on the phrasing! Anyway, may I please thank all parties for attempting to make the issue clearer to everyone? At least we have here a proper documentation of what both sides think, which will make life for the historians easier. Also there isn't a great big war being fought yet. Is there any other evidence we haven't brought up to quarrel over, or have we basically finished? [sup]*a punishment which is not in the constitution of UINE[/sup]

[quote name='Moe Szyslak' timestamp='1294551292' post='2569347'] That doesn't sound like Keve at all [/quote] Hear hear! Could someone explain how 'he reneged on several deals and was generally a snake throughout'? I just don't get that bit. All the rest makes sense. Commonsense, actually...

What holes? I would love to hear of them. Unless you're referring to the forum hack by Anson? I've seen proof... The MoFA of UINE has a real life, so doesn't bother to reply to most of these topics. There's not much point in me participating in them anyway... nobody ever takes much notice of what other people say. They just say what they like.

If the Minister of Foreign Affairs may make a private statement: 1) Anson negotiated without the power to negotiate 2) Therefore the negotiations didn't stand 3) Instead it was decided that the silly members of UINE who raided without permission should be attacked in turn in accordance with UINE's constitution (7 days of war for 4 of them and a ZI for the last were agreed upon) 4) It was requested that these members be expelled - this was agreed. 5) It was later indicated that that meant expel immediately 6) Those members were expelled Shouldn't that be the end of the story? But no, there are new demands! How fun! 1- Continued attacks on the rogues under what they posted on the OWF. 2- One of the rogues will now be banned from UINE for life with no possibility of coming back. 3- They have brought the reparations back as well. 4- A ZI for the Emperor (who has done nothing wrong yet except from having a real life and a treacherous former Minister of Finance, Anson, who negotiated without permission) and our minister of defence (same). Now that that's been set straight, I think I shall comment that these demands may not be appropriate. Now I'm off to church, and that means goodwill and peace and harmony and all of that stuff.

Hail! We'll be your good luck...

Onwards to three million! Let's see how far we can get for our second birthday party...

Congratulations! Hail!

Thank-you for your kind trust in our honourable intentions. Anyway, it's good to make new friends. (It always is.) I have no doubt this will be mutually beneficial to us. Which is good. On the treaty itself, nice signature styles all round. Which is good again!