A Sad GOONS Announcement

[WarriorConcept]

[quote name='Tautology' timestamp='1293140905' post='2551956']
Maybe it's because they then have to face up to the notion that groups can also change for the worse.
[/quote]

Which is then why you get to know them. Something MK has actually done.

[Phetion]

[quote name='Believland' timestamp='1293140376' post='2551945']
Get real. You're still mad about the way they treated you in Karma.
[/quote]

Actually I'm personally only mad* about the way they treated me, and the rest of Kronos during the STA incident.


*'mad' is a bit of a stretch too. I guess it left a bad taste afterwards. Yeah they said sorry a lot afterwards, and it's pretty much forgotten. On top of Karma, that's why [b]I[/b] won't trust them. Two times too many.

[Tautology]

[quote name='WarriorConcept' timestamp='1293141080' post='2551961']
Which is then why you get to know them. Something MK has actually done.
[/quote]
You've made a powerful argument there for getting past grudges. If only you could bottle it and dab each and everyone one of us behind the ear.

[blockers]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1293141019' post='2551959']
Not to defend polar or anything, but in all fairness the polar government involved lost their jobs soon thereafter.


I'm not sure I follow? We are many things, but we are not controlling.
[/quote]

dosnt the word 'Oppression' feature in GOON?

[Sardonic]

[quote name='blockers' timestamp='1293141584' post='2551967']
dosnt the word 'Oppression' feature in GOON?
[/quote]

Yes but typically only when unaligned are involved.

Edited December 23, 2010 by Sardonic

[Believland]

[quote name='Phetion' timestamp='1293141174' post='2551962']
Actually I'm personally only mad* about the way they treated me, and the rest of Kronos during the STA incident.


*'mad' is a bit of a stretch too. I guess it left a bad taste afterwards. Yeah they said sorry a lot afterwards, and it's pretty much forgotten. On top of Karma, that's why [b]I[/b] won't trust them. Two times too many.
[/quote]

I'll be honest. The way they treated you during the STA-Kronos situation really wasn't acceptable at all and I'll give you that.

But, getting rid of a friendship to "make a point" while still being connected to them by the same amount of chains is laughable.

[WarriorConcept]

[quote name='Tautology' timestamp='1293141465' post='2551964']
You've made a powerful argument there for getting past grudges. If only you could bottle it and dab each and everyone one of us behind the ear.
[/quote]

Better than any anti-TOP argument I've read so far, truth be told.

[Azaghul]

[quote name='Aurion' timestamp='1293140657' post='2551950']
You might even have an actual point if we were beating the "roll TOP" drums.
[/quote]
No, you just ineffectively tried to blacklist them and keep them in the "opposition" ready to be rolled again next war.

[quote name='Phetion' timestamp='1293141174' post='2551962']
Actually I'm personally only mad* about the way they treated me, and the rest of Kronos during the STA incident.


*'mad' is a bit of a stretch too. I guess it left a bad taste afterwards. Yeah they said sorry a lot afterwards, and it's pretty much forgotten. On top of Karma, that's why [b]I[/b] won't trust them. Two times too many.
[/quote]
OK, you don't trust them.

Why does your lack of trust warrant making such a big deal out of MK trusting them? What is it to you if you think they will eventually end up betraying MK? I still don't get why this is more important to you than your former relationship with GOONS.

Edited December 23, 2010 by Azaghul

[BlkAK47_002]

[quote name='Leet Guy' timestamp='1293140210' post='2551943']
I don't understand why people in this world cannot wrap their head around the notion of groups being able to change for the better.
[/quote]

You guys seem to have a hard time wrapping your heads around that as well.

Edited December 24, 2010 by BlkAK47_002

[Kochers]

[quote name='zzzptm' timestamp='1293082703' post='2551146']
Hate to say this, but...

Well done, GOONS. You're doin' it rite.
[/quote]
This.

That's all that really needs to be said, though I'm glad some back room politics have returned to the OWF again.

[Hyperion321]

Well this was a well time distraction from the stupidity of the current war. Good luck to both parties.

Also, I <3 Xiph and I don't care who knows it.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='WarriorConcept' timestamp='1293139429' post='2551927']
Care to show me where that aggression is shown?
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]I'm sure many of you know of my strong dislike for GOD, but one thing I hate more than GOD is nonsense. MK's treaty with TOP is for a reason, and it is fairly obvious to all. I know it is not smart politics to come out and say the truth, but I've never been any good at politics. I make up for it by speaking the truth. You're gunning for NpO (well not you, but MK and TOP). It is no secret that Random isn't a fan of MK, and relations have been iffy between the two for awhile. With NpO no longer being part of MK's sphere, that puts them on the outside, and as a threat. TOP wants revenge for being played in BiPolar. It's obvious to everyone.[/color]

[WcaesarD]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1293139357' post='2551924']
This is, perhaps, the thing that angers me the most. You discarded our treaty, and indeed our very friendship, to make a political point.
[/quote]

I know you stated in your op that you didn't have any feelings of ill will towards the general membership of GOD, but that seems to go against your actions here. You, in a very public place trashed the actions of their chosen leader and posted (in what very easily could have been a 2 sentence thread notifying bob of the cancelation) this debacle of a thread. I completely agree with buds that after reading through this it seems a cheap attempt to discredit xiph/GOD and possibly SF. I've got no opinion on the treaty of MK/TOP or on your cancellation, but I am extremely disappointed in the manner in which GOONS threw a friend from just moments before out to the wolves for seemingly no reason.

Edited December 23, 2010 by WCaesarD

[WarriorConcept]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1293142805' post='2551991']
[color="#0000FF"]I'm sure many of you know of my strong dislike for GOD, but one thing I hate more than GOD is nonsense. MK's treaty with TOP is for a reason, and it is fairly obvious to all. I know it is not smart politics to come out and say the truth, but I've never been any good at politics. I make up for it by speaking the truth. You're gunning for NpO (well not you, but MK and TOP). It is no secret that Random isn't a fan of MK, and relations have been iffy between the two for awhile. With NpO no longer being part of MK's sphere, that puts them on the outside, and as a threat. TOP wants revenge for being played in BiPolar. It's obvious to everyone.[/color]
[/quote]

I don't believe MK is "gunning" for NpO. I think it seems obvious that NpO will be on the "other side" and everyone is preparing appropriately. TOP is an alliance which knows first hand not to trust NpO and also the friendship developed between MK and TOP isn't a farce. I was in MK months back when relations were starting to grow and I really do believe that they match up well together. Small knit group of powerful active nations reflects both of them well, and if you've been in the embassy on either end you'd come to understand they have become real friends.

[Steve Buscemi]

I think what Midnight posted on page 5ish or so, was spot on about the Karma war. I was in TOP during that fiasco and I wouldn't trust them either, although at this point I've moved past it. I know how badly TOP wanted to roll SF (edit: err RoK/GOD) and I think that's subsided a bit, being replaced by Polaris, but Midnight and Xiph have made some really good posts in this thread.

I sure has &#*@ would rather deal with Xiph than some of the other back-talking government people I've run into from what I've read/seen. At least you get a straight shooter and I can respect that. I'm glad VE has a strong bond with GOD. I like things being made public, so I'm not being critical of GOONS either (only time non-gov's like me get to read things). With that said I hope in a future war we can all work together if we need to roll a certain (non-yellow primary color) alliance.

Edited December 23, 2010 by Steve Buscemi

[Kochers]

[quote name='WCaesarD' timestamp='1293142836' post='2551992']
I know you stated in your op that you didn't have any feelings of ill will towards the general membership of GOD, but that seems to go against your actions here. You, in a very public place trashed the actions of their chosen leader and posted (in what very easily could have been a 2 sentence thread notifying bob of the cancelation) this debacle of a thread. I completely agree with buds that after reading through this it seems a cheap attempt to discredit xiph/GOD and possibly SF. I've got no opinion on the treaty of MK/TOP or on your cancellation, but I am extremely disappointed in the manner in which GOONS threw a friend from just moments before out to the wolves for seemingly no reason.
[/quote]
Really? GOD threw away their treaty and friendship to make a point, so GOONS brought it up in public and how they believe what GOD was doing was unreasonable and wrong. Pretty simple, pretty obvious, IMO.

[Locke]

[quote name='Lamuella' timestamp='1293136718' post='2551871']
so basically what you're saying is that we didn't act like his lackeys and he has no concept of a treaty between equals rather than a contract between master and servant. I'm amazed that you tried to make this sound like he's the honourable one in all this.

"unwavering loyalty". Sure.
[/quote]
That'd be a nice point if it had anything to do with honor or at all to do with what I said.

[quote name='JT Jag' timestamp='1293137104' post='2551876']
But this isn't really the case, you see.

I can't speak for GOD. But before this incident went down, we considered GOD to be one of our most valuable allies, and beyond just that, we considered them [i]friends[/i]. We would have gone to war in their defense any day of the week, and I'd have fought alongside them in any reasonable scenario.

GOD is a couple non-chaining treaties away from some alliances we want to be nowhere near, but we were willing to let that slip in the name of friendship because we were sure we could work it out like adults if the time came that this became an issue. But I guess we couldn't get that same benefit of the doubt.

Get your house in order, GOD. I still love you guys, I really do, and I hope we can still work together going forward. But I think you guys have some inner exploring to do.
[/quote]
My point is that your views on allies and Xiph's views on allies differ. He expects a certain level of give and take that you weren't willing or able to give. I'm sure you liked them, still like them, and would still be willing to go to war for them, as they would for you, but a treaty just wasn't the right fit. Neither of you are [i]wrong[/i], just different, but it pays to know and understand the differences ahead of time, or people get hurt. There's nothing wrong with wanting your allies to fit with your views; that's the basis on which treaties are signed. If your views aren't compatible, then there should be no treaty.

[nippy]

[quote name='Locke' timestamp='1293143315' post='2552003']
If your views aren't compatible, then there should be no treaty.
[/quote]

Compatibility wasn't an issue. The fact our [b]allies[/b] don't share [i]identical[/i] views with GOD was the issue. Hey, we could play the 5 degrees of separation game on this planet all day, and if people were to follow suit with what Xiph did, there would be no treaties left.


Wait...perhaps that's not such a bad idea.

[RePePe]

This is something that should have been dealt with in private.

Posting that letter, though logical and well-written, is not much better than a disgruntled ex-member airing out his grievances against his former alliance. I understand your intentions, but it just comes off as immature.

[Leigon]

[quote name='Steve Buscemi' timestamp='1293143127' post='2551998']
I think what Midnight posted on page 5ish or so, was spot on about the Karma war. I was in TOP during that fiasco and I wouldn't trust them either, although at this point I've moved past it. I know how badly TOP wanted to roll SF (edit: err RoK/GOD) and I think that's subsided a bit, being replaced by Polaris, but Midnight and Xiph have made some really good posts in this thread.

I sure has &#*@ would rather deal with Xiph than some of the other back-talking government people I've run into from what I've read/seen. At least you get a straight shooter and I can respect that. I'm glad VE has a strong bond with GOD. I like things being made public, so I'm not being critical of GOONS either (only time non-gov's like me get to read things). With that said I hope in a future war we can all work together if we need to roll a certain (non-yellow primary color) alliance.
[/quote]

I agree completely. We all aren't too thrilled about this development, but it just had to be done.
Also Midknight is wise.

Let's hope the future brings back cordial relationships when politics allow it.

[Sardonic]

[quote name='RePePe' timestamp='1293143859' post='2552007']
This is something that should have been dealt with in private.

Posting that letter, though logical and well-written, is not much better than a disgruntled ex-member airing out his grievances against his former alliance. I understand your intentions, but it just comes off as immature.
[/quote]

Had I said nothing I would have been implicitly complicit with an act I found to be ethically bankrupt. Private venues would not have done it justice.

[Locke]

[quote name='nippy' timestamp='1293143840' post='2552006']
Compatibility wasn't an issue. The fact our [b]allies[/b] don't share [i]identical[/i] views with GOD was the issue. Hey, we could play the 5 degrees of separation game on this planet all day, and if people were to follow suit with what Xiph did, there would be no treaties left.


Wait...perhaps that's not such a bad idea.
[/quote]
He expects your allies to share views with him. You don't. Therefore, you are incompatible.

Gotten three GOONS on my back so far, and the funny thing is that I don't like GOD and like GOONS (a little), and I'm on their side in all this. I wouldn't want to be allied to Xiph's views either. Just sayin', there's nothing wrong with being an ass like that.

[lazaraus45]

[quote name='Rafael Nadal' timestamp='1293102290' post='2551477']
By the way, I look forward (and hope) to see you with Polar. A. I'm tired of the perception that SF is still all powerful when most of your signatories are average at best in overall efficiency and capability (and is not made up for by GOD and Rok), and B. I feel it would much more interesting politically, and in war, to have SF oppose us (MK,PB, CnG, TOP, etc).
[/quote]

MK, PB, CnG AND TOP just to take on those who are average at best? what does that say about your side?

actually, don't answer that, we already the answer know from the fact that your side backed down when the chance arose a few days ago, but i wouldn't feel too bad, being second to SF is nothing to be ashamed of

[quote name='Yevgeni Luchenkov' timestamp='1293107917' post='2551539']
TOP has been led mostly by a united group since the middle of the BiPolar war, which is roughly the same timeframe. Sky, Berith, Feanor and now Jenko as Grandmasters,[/quote]


Didn't Feanor sell Berith out?

[nippy]

[quote name='Locke' timestamp='1293144928' post='2552024']
He expects your allies to share views with him. You don't. Therefore, you are incompatible.
[/quote]

I'm not on your back. I'm simply stating there's a huge gap between being compatible with someone and expecting someone to carry the same prejudices you do. If a family member decides to marry a person of opposing political views, you don't disown the family member.

[hizzy]

roll GOD imo. either that or tell GOONS to surrender so that I can.