Joint Poison Clan - iFOK Announcement

[greenacres]

[quote name='sigelopisan' timestamp='1292857215' post='2546551']
I still can remember the long day of talk before the treaty signed.
It was fun to know each other more close before signed it on a paper. Paper is just a paper. What beyond it is much more important.

Then, if we have a chance to go back to that day when the treaty signed, will we signed it? 100% YES.
[/quote]

Of course, and you should sign that treaty every time. It's not your fault that it came to this, I just think that PC was quick to forget the history that was there between your two alliances, again, that's not your fault, but it's disappointing. I would expect more from PC towards NEW, I don't think iFOK did the wrong thing, I really don't, and if the circumstances were different (if this was another alliance) I wouldn't fault PC in this case either, but I do know the history between PC and NEW, I do know how long in the making that treaty was, and how much respect for each other was there.

NEW just deserved better from PC given their history, that's all. It's disappointing that this was the result, and from a strictly political standpoint I get it, I understand why they did this and why/how it came to this, but this should have been an instance where PC said "politics be damned, we're going in."

[SpoiL]

Did they really just try to be [i]honorable[/i] cowards?

Edited December 20, 2010 by SpoiL

[Arrnea]

[quote name='SpoiL' timestamp='1292860689' post='2546590']Did they really just try to be [i]honorable[/i] cowards?[/quote]
They might be cowards, but at least they are well-dressed cowards with good manners?

Edited December 20, 2010 by Arrnea

[pooksland]

[quote name='sigelopisan' timestamp='1292858228' post='2546565']
Well General, I still have to believe that "today PC" is still have some spirit from the "old PC".
Things are changes along with time goes by. They might had lost it somewhere.

The friendship is forever General. But the paper, I'm not sure.

You (and most of PC founders) taught us that, remember?
[/quote]

It is sad that most of the "old PC" are very inactive now-a-days. But trust me, we still remember.

PS. HAI! JBone, thanks for the shootout!

[Believland]

o/ PC
o/ iFOK

[Finnish Commie]

Regrettably this was the only solution left for iFOK and PC in this matter. NEW put their allies in such a !@#$%* position I really do feel bad for them. Well at least NEW will be paying for all the stubbornness and lack of any diplomatic skill they have.

Edited December 20, 2010 by Finnish Commie

[JBone]

[quote name='pooksland' timestamp='1292862091' post='2546613']
It is sad that most of the "old PC" are very inactive now-a-days. But trust me, we still remember.

PS. HAI! JBone, thanks for the shootout!
[/quote]
Hey pooks, good to to you are still alive.

Pass on my best to the old guard, their legacy deserves better than this.

[Ying Yang Mafia]

[quote name='Finnish Commie' timestamp='1292863868' post='2546636']
Regrettably this was the only solution left for iFOK and PC in this matter. NEW put their allies in such a !@#$%* position I really do feel bad for them. Well at least NEW will be paying for all the stubbornness and lack of any diplomatic skill they have.
[/quote]

I think you'll find that NEW is an extremely tough opponent.

It really sucks for NEW that their allies aren't sticking by them. True friends are there through the thick and thin, even when you make stupid mistakes. Count me as one person not mourning the lack of treaties between Athens and PC/iFok.

[Timeline]

Mutual Defense and Optional Aggression Pacts (often referred to as MDoAP's) are a type of interalliance treaty wherein the signatory alliances agree to defend each other from attack by other alliances. Optionally, they may support each other in wars of aggression, but this is not required.

Do PC and iFOK have another meaning for the MDoAP they share with NEW ?


[quote name='TwistedRebelDB47' timestamp='1272429276' post='2278154']
Mutual Defense:
Both NEW and PC understand the meaning of Mutuality and which we will defend each other till the end.In cases where either party are already defending another ally, (i.e. chaining) the other party has the option to come in for defense.
[/quote]

I guess by the above your meaning of Mutuality is only to defend when you think you can win ?


[quote name='kriekfreak' timestamp='1288279157' post='2495208']
[b]Article I.[/b] We will defend each other, share information and may even go to war together.
[/quote]

Nice and simple, how ever I think you should add [i]We will defend each other[/i] if Father FOK tells us we can.

[Arrnea]

[quote name='Ying Yang Mafia' timestamp='1292864582' post='2546654']It really sucks for NEW that their allies aren't sticking by them. True friends are there through the thick and thin, even when you make stupid mistakes. Count me as one person not mourning the lack of treaties between Athens and PC/iFok.[/quote]
Does your definition of a "stupid mistake" extend to not admitting that you screwed up and refusing to back off and apologise, even when your "allies" promised to pay your reparations entirely for you, just so that you could get out of this without being destroyed?
I think it is NEW being the poor ally here, really.

One should never confuse the presence of unusual testicular fortitude with the absence of cognitive function.

[quote name='Timeline' timestamp='1292864921' post='2546660']Nice and simple, how ever I think you should add [i]We will defend each other[/i] if Father FOK tells us we can.[/quote]
Nonono, that's not it at all. It's that damn VE. They're the ones who torpedoed this with their VEto.
iFOK owns FOK (quite literally, an iFOK nation is the one who owns the FOK communications network, at least last I checked), after all.

Edited December 20, 2010 by Arrnea

[Zoomzoomzoom]

I'm not going to argue any of the logistics regarding this war, but while I was in PC leadership during the Red Raiding Safari. I'd like to point out that we never involved ourselves with that. I believe we had one member raid a red nation, but not once was PC gov ever made aware of it until after it hit the OWF. PC was only clumped into for being a raiding alliance and just assumed to have been involved.

Saw quite a few posts regarding that before I stopped reading this topic.

[mattski133]

[quote name='Hiro Nakara' timestamp='1292847643' post='2546416']
It was the worst military planning/organising I have personally witnessed. What made it worse was the people in the room that were bragging about how the other side will be smashed by this plan. Yet 1 week later nothing happened. It surely was genius to watch TPF burn. A lot of alliances did not care for this peace plan (myself included) and many alliances had forces ready to rock and roll within 1 days notice. They were given no direction and got frustrated. It was embarrassing.

Apologies Memoryproblems for going off topic, if you want to discuss it further drop me a pm.


Would I be correct in the assumption that if someone attacked NEW out with the 3 already hitting them PC/iFOK would roll into action?

And if anyone attacked PC/iFOK, PB's direct allies, then PB would defend them?

I'm struggling to see how PB are cowards when not 1 alliance has attacked it's direct allies?

Or is that not how it works?

IDK [shrugs]
[/quote]

You're looking in the wrong place for reason, brosef.

It seems like a bit much to have FARK, INT, and TPE jump on NEW over a tiny non-alliance but w/e. It happened, and it is certainly their right. Just as it's NEW's right to stand alone, and PC/iFOK's right to abide by their wishes, and then issue a statement saying that any more will be met with destruction, which obviously people are respecting. You can say PB are cowards but no one of any relevance is going to push that envelope across the table.

Isn't there another war coming up here soon anyway?

[Ying Yang Mafia]

[quote name='Arrnea' timestamp='1292865013' post='2546661']
Does your definition of a "stupid mistake" extend to not admitting that you screwed up and refusing to back off and apologise, even when your "allies" promised to pay your reparations entirely for you, just so that you could get out of this without being destroyed?
I think it is NEW being the poor ally here, really.

One should never confuse the presence of unusual testicular fortitude with the absence of cognitive function.
[/quote]

Does your definition of screwed up extend to any action the majority condemns? Was this a poor decision by NEW? Yeah I'd say so. Would they be justified in expecting assistance from their allies, especially those who are known for raiding and veraciously defending that right? I certainly think so.

Besides, you and I both know NEW isn't going to be destroyed. In the event this doesn't become a global conflict the war will end soon enough, and unless Fark, The International, and TPE want to lose the precious moral high ground that they've gained then there won't be crippling reps.

I think the real issue is that PC and iFok don't want to fight in a war they won't win. I bet you they'd have already gone in had the odds been securely in their favor.

[berbers]

So the PC nation and iFok nation currently at war for "NEW Defense" are rogues? I guess you guys won't mind Fark, TI and TPE dogpiling them?

[supercoolyellow]

[quote name='mattski133' timestamp='1292866683' post='2546709']Just as it's NEW's right to stand alone, and PC/iFOK's right to abide by their wishes,[/quote]

Oh sure, NEW said they don't wish for their allies to jump in, but the question should be asked, how much whining was done to get NEW to say that?

[quote] and then issue a statement saying that any more will be met with destruction, which obviously people are respecting.
[/quote]

Oh how brave and generous of them. Anything more than 4v1 (stats wise) is just too much!

[shavar]

[quote name='Zoomzoomzoom' timestamp='1292865540' post='2546681']
I'm not going to argue any of the logistics regarding this war, but while I was in PC leadership during the Red Raiding Safari. I'd like to point out that we never involved ourselves with that. I believe we had one member raid a red nation, but not once was PC gov ever made aware of it until after it hit the OWF. PC was only clumped into for being a raiding alliance and just assumed to have been involved.

Saw quite a few posts regarding that before I stopped reading this topic.
[/quote]


so PC doesn't tech raid? TheNAC really enjoyed you stopping by this morning.

[mattski133]

[quote name='supercoolyellow' timestamp='1292867510' post='2546723']
Oh sure, NEW said they don't wish for their allies to jump in, but the question should be asked, how much whining was done to get NEW to say that?
[/quote]

They don't let me in those channels

But I won't argue everyone here's got the same right to complain about that if it's the case. I don't know NEW really well but they don't seem the type to have their policy dictated to them.

[greenacres]

[quote name='shavar' timestamp='1292868094' post='2546724']
so PC doesn't tech raid? TheNAC really enjoyed you stopping by this morning.
[/quote]

You completely missed his point.

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Ying Yang Mafia' timestamp='1292867150' post='2546718']
Does your definition of screwed up extend to any action the majority condemns? Was this a poor decision by NEW? Yeah I'd say so. Would they be justified in expecting assistance from their allies, especially those who are known for raiding and veraciously defending that right? I certainly think so.
[/quote]
This has nothing to do with raiding and everything to do with learning how to read. The protection was in the thread, NEW ignored it, and refused to apologize or even admit they made a mistake and make amends for their actions. This fight has nothing to do with tech raiding and everything to do with an alliance savaging the corpse of another for the purpose of revenge, and then blowing it up into an incident by refusing the simplest of diplomatic concessions. I applaud iFOK and PC for not endorsing NEW's boorish behavior.

[Arrnea]

[quote name='berbers' timestamp='1292867442' post='2546721']So the PC nation and iFok nation currently at war for "NEW Defense" are rogues? I guess you guys won't mind Fark, TI and TPE dogpiling them?[/quote]
I hadn't heard of a PC nation, but the iFOK nation is, so I hear.

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1292868378' post='2546729']This has nothing to do with raiding and everything to do with learning how to read. The protection was in the thread, NEW ignored it, and refused to apologize or even admit they made a mistake and make amends for their actions. This fight has nothing to do with tech raiding and everything to do with an alliance savaging the corpse of another for the purpose of revenge, and then blowing it up into an incident by refusing the simplest of diplomatic concessions. I applaud iFOK and PC for not endorsing NEW's boorish behavior.[/quote]
Thankyou Sardonic, for elucidating my point further. You've hit the nail on the head here.

Edited December 20, 2010 by Arrnea

[Vol Navy]

Looks like Zoom left PC behind. Curious as to whether it was due to this situation.

[Zoomzoomzoom]

[quote name='shavar' timestamp='1292868094' post='2546724']
so PC doesn't tech raid? TheNAC really enjoyed you stopping by this morning.
[/quote]

If you've been around and paid any attention you'd know that PC does raid.

I'm no longer in PC so what you're referring to has no relation to this topic or what my previous post was about.

[Vol Navy]

[quote name='Arrnea' timestamp='1292868486' post='2546730']
I hadn't heard of a PC nation, but the iFOK nation is, so I hear.
[/quote]

Someone from TPE declared on a PC'er first. Then Coffee Shock declared on two from TPE. I fought Coffee Shock during Karma. He lives up to his nickname, he is on for war 24/7.

[Finnish Commie]

[quote name='Ying Yang Mafia' timestamp='1292864582' post='2546654']
I think you'll find that NEW is an extremely tough opponent.

It really sucks for NEW that their allies aren't sticking by them. True friends are there through the thick and thin, even when you make stupid mistakes. Count me as one person not mourning the lack of treaties between Athens and PC/iFok.
[/quote]

I am sure NEW will provide us with a good challenge. The matter of the fact is though that they are so overwhelmed they have no chance of pulling this off.

[Believland]

[quote name='shavar' timestamp='1292868094' post='2546724']
so PC doesn't tech raid? TheNAC really enjoyed you stopping by this morning.
[/quote]

Let me clear this up for you. PC does raid. One member, not a government member, raided a red nation. PC really was never involved in the Red Raiding Safari. That's what he's trying to tell you.