CN Alternate History

[Schattenmann]

The Unjust Path fights to a draw, so GOONS is not forced to disband. Schattenmann remains in GOONS and posts like a goon hurfdurfing about beards, wallscrolls, plaid, smith, etc all over town. Kharn becomes Emperor of Purge after the TPF Viceroyalty (instead of me) and turns it around into a still small, but mostly successful if not rather insignificant 50-150-nation AA. Browncoats fades into history after just 2 months as its Lunar founders all leave the game with no GOONS-\m/ diaspora to replace them; since we never leave GOONS, Schattenmann and Lamuela become best friends, and I even go to England to watch deer outside his window, and show him my comics from the 1970s. NPO is never defeated because the best weekly news magazine of all time is never written. Cult of Justitia doesn't win Great War 7 because Schattenmann is still in GOONS and never found morals--he just stays a [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?s=&showtopic=2706&view=findpost&p=65737"]minor troll[/url].

That was fun.

Edited December 16, 2010 by Schattenmann

[Caliph]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1292476032' post='2540697']
Sponge only left after he was couped and that was in order to try and prevent WotC. it was a quite a bit of time after the UjW. as for BLEU making the tactical change, not sure about anyone else but Polaris iirc started working on theirs. FAN really only concentrated on Pacifica and left Polaris largely alone with the nukes. IRON was never BLEU nor in 1V.
[/quote]
IRON was a founding member of One Vision, it was NPO, IRON, NpO, and GGA who founded it. Are you trying to bring up a scenario of "what if" IRON was not in 1V?

Edit: Ah, I think I see where you're coming from. I know IRON was never in BLEU, but in the UjP they hit GOONS and were countered by ...at least \m/, perhaps others, I remember counterring the NpO counter on Chairman Hal who was counterring IRON's attack on GOONS I was thinking that BLEU members, and additionally IRON and GGA, were big targets that could have been focused on and dealt much more damage which would have affected their ability to dominate right after the Unjust War. The power players that became One Vision after the war would have been clearly dominated by NPO if NpO, GGA, and IRON had taken significant damage during the war. BLEU would have been unable to muster the strength internally to really be the go getters they were after the war ended prematuraly instead of being fought to the end and if the UjP had followed a gameplan of focusing on a select few alliances to decimate.

I'm not saying the Unjust would have necessarily won in that scenario, but would have done a lot of damage and perhaps the go getters in the world immediately after the Unjust path would not have been BLEU for a time. Perhaps another alliance who didn't get hit as hard would have the desire to make a power play.

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1292469851' post='2540636']
I was, by my estimate, probably another round of combat or so from ZI (indeed at least one of the Legion nations attacking me had nukes he still hadn't popped at the time the war ended for us). I was also far from alone. Sure, some people within \m/ were far less damaged, but we were decisively engaged, had no reserves left, and even before the Bilrow incident we were talking about at least trying to get people to Peace Mode hoping to regroup, thinking perhaps we could get enough people to safety we could put together something resembling another combat wave in a week. The night the whole Bilrow thing blew up on the OWF, our military commander and the guy who held the plans for organizing said withdrawal resigned and bolted to Atlantis, an alliance in the enemy camp--not exactly a morale booster. Then there was the Bilrow revelation itself--after alliance leaders within the Initiative had essentially given their word that the OOC medical condition was not to be publicly released, here was 404 dumping it. I'll speculate that perhaps he sensed that the UJP was outnumbered to the point that victory was impossible, game over, and it was his last FU to CN. I won't ascribe motivations to what he did further other than to say that it was [b]wrong[/b] to the point that it pretty much sucked the joy of the fight out of me, indeed my motivation at that point went from trying to win the war to trying to ensure \m/ would survive it somehow by inflicting maximum damage on NpO in order to force them to the bargaining table. So far as I recall the offensive fizzled--not enough people out of anarchy or able to get out of peace mode at that point to matter. We did rather quickly get to that bargaining table however, but there was no bargaining, only the dictating of terms that were impossible to accept or even bring back to membership for consideration.

But let's be honest, barring major blundering on the part of ~ that war was always going to end in ~ victory, and it was going to end decisively, with the major alliances in the UJP disbanded, mostly dismantled, or hurting. Sponge simply outplayed the UJP on the diplomatic front, a job made significantly easier by the actions of the UJP themselves. Least some of you forget, NPO was actually in reserve for the most part during that war and could have been called forth to attack GOONS, \m/, or anyone else if needed. Sufficient quantity beats quality--just ask the Soviets after World War II.
[/quote]
NPO was in reserve for that war, as were other alliances, however NPO publicly stated that when they were withdrawing from the WUT that they would not be DOWing former WUT members. Of course they could have recinded such a policy anytime they wanted, but during the war as it played out they did not recind that statement.

Now I agree that the UjP would not have won the war if the sides were the same, but if \m/ and Genmay had still had some fight left (which we had some left, but not much) and GOONS didn't suffer the loss of all the major players in their coalition their performance may have been better. In a one on one, IRON would've gotten smashed by GOONS, except GOONS was outnumbered and out NS'ed by the alliances just on GOONS, not to mention the other alliances who were attacking the whole Unjust Path. \m/ was outnumbered and out NS'ed by the alliances hitting just \m/, not to mention the alliances hitting the whole UjP. I recognize the UjP would have lost that war, I was the only one on our forums trying to keep it positive then and I was there throughout the war and the events surrounding it, but my hypothetical was about a what if the Unjust Path's and Highway's tactics were a bit different. It seemed from my standpoint as a grunt in \m/ that we were just hitting whoever hit us, and at least I publicly stated on the \m/ forums I thought that was a bad idea, we should just focus on 1 or 2 enemies. I'm no military genius, but if we had done that we would've caused extensive damage as a coalition to certain BLEU members and BLEU allies. Yes we still would have lost but we would have made it a pyrric victory for some alliances. If we had focused just on NpO and decided to ruin their game we would've hit them harder than FAN hit NPO. Sure NpO had a coalition, but how many would have been willing to send NpO aid to keep affloat? Some, sure, and they did have NPO backing them, but relations were strained between the orders then. I'm not sure if NPO would've bailed NpO out if the UjP had singled NpO out, or if NpO and ...who else was a high profile BLEU or BLEU ally in that war? We hated Atlantis for fighting against \m/, their protectors at the time. We had bad blood with CIS who DOWed us after we gave them a color to stay on and a senate seat. We hated that MCXA and NATO fought against us in that war and not with us (they had treaties on both sides and chose to honour the ~ treaties and not the Unjust ones) ... IRON was big, but we didn't consider them much a threat given their lack of experience, though I suppose GGA was also a high profile target but they were getting beat by Superfriends at the time. Perhaps if the UjP had focused on IRON and NpO we could've knocked down those alliances forcing them to rebuild. Sure we still would've lost the war, but if we had kept fighting and not surrendered when the Bilrow shenanigans happened on GOON sovereign territory that isn't in the same universe as we in the Cyberverse occupy and thus resides outside even almighty Admin's jurisdiction, we may have done enough damage to critically damage IRON, NpO, and GGA, which would have changed the way those alliances were able to act as they would've spent a lot longer rebuilding (though they would've gotten the lion's share of the reps which would've helped rebuilding), but perhaps they would've been damaged enough to where One Vision would not have been much a credible threat until Continuum formed. After reading what Doch had to say perhaps BLEU would not have been in a position to do their power plays which might not have tipped public opinion of them against them.

As for \m/'s performance that war, I was there, I know how dire it was. That is why we had deals in place to use GOONS banks. Part of the reason \m/ never had a decent banking program is our allies provided banks for us in times of war. Not a good practice to always do, but helpful for a time.

Edited December 16, 2010 by Caliph

[Prime minister Johns]

Here is an interesting alternate history to consider... Imagine if the incidents that lead to GOONS & FAN leaving WUT never happened.

There would of been no UJP, vietfan or Karma war (or a much smaller karma war that ended in failure for karma) and WUT would still be an active power in the world today with a much larger GOONS and FAN as member alliances.

[Caliph]

[quote name='Prime minister Johns' timestamp='1292499825' post='2540856']
Here is an interesting alternate history to consider... Imagine if the incidents that lead to GOONS & FAN leaving WUT never happened.

There would of been no UJP, vietfan or Karma war (or a much smaller karma war that ended in failure for karma) and WUT would still be an active power in the world today with a much larger GOONS and FAN as member alliances.
[/quote]
Without FAN being booted, GGA and NpO never having a reason to leave the WUT (which would chance a bit of history as well, Black Friday would have had not to happened, the FAN war would have had not to have happened, and either FAN's deals with the AEGIS side would have had never to come out or not happened, and FAN would have had to not do YN5 or tech raid NPO protectorate or done a few other things), the WUT would have been a little different.

What kept the WUT together was the dislike/mistrust towards former League and AEGIS members. Without that a new enemy would have to be found, but with a lot of alliances trying to get a treaty with a member of the WUT, any member, whichever member they like the most, perhaps infighting in the WUT was inevitable.

It didn't have to come to blows, but I'm not sure that without a foreign enemy that the cultures of the WUT alliances would not have kept them together. I think the WUT would have fallen and the WUT members split into the different camps of GOONS and NPO/NpO. Perhaps it would've taken longer for events to happen to really draw out the worse in the leaders of the WUT, but I think that it would've happened sooner or later.

[nippy]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1292469851' post='2540636']
I was, by my estimate, probably another round of combat or so from ZI (indeed at least one of the Legion nations attacking me had nukes he still hadn't popped at the time the war ended for us). I was also far from alone. Sure, some people within \m/ were far less damaged, but we were decisively engaged, had no reserves left, and even before the Bilrow incident we were talking about at least trying to get people to Peace Mode hoping to regroup, thinking perhaps we could get enough people to safety we could put together something resembling another combat wave in a week. The night the whole Bilrow thing blew up on the OWF, our military commander and the guy who held the plans for organizing said withdrawal resigned and bolted to Atlantis, an alliance in the enemy camp--not exactly a morale booster. Then there was the Bilrow revelation itself--after alliance leaders within the Initiative had essentially given their word that the OOC medical condition was not to be publicly released, here was 404 dumping it. I'll speculate that perhaps he sensed that the UJP was outnumbered to the point that victory was impossible, game over, and it was his last FU to CN. I won't ascribe motivations to what he did further other than to say that it was [b]wrong[/b] to the point that it pretty much sucked the joy of the fight out of me, indeed my motivation at that point went from trying to win the war to trying to ensure \m/ would survive it somehow by inflicting maximum damage on NpO in order to force them to the bargaining table. So far as I recall the offensive fizzled--not enough people out of anarchy or able to get out of peace mode at that point to matter. We did rather quickly get to that bargaining table however, but there was no bargaining, only the dictating of terms that were impossible to accept or even bring back to membership for consideration.

But let's be honest, barring major blundering on the part of ~ that war was always going to end in ~ victory, and it was going to end decisively, with the major alliances in the UJP disbanded, mostly dismantled, or hurting. Sponge simply outplayed the UJP on the diplomatic front, a job made significantly easier by the actions of the UJP themselves. Least some of you forget, NPO was actually in reserve for the most part during that war and could have been called forth to attack GOONS, \m/, or anyone else if needed. Sufficient quantity beats quality--just ask the Soviets after World War II.
[/quote]

I agree with everything posted above, except for the fact that NPO was still allied to both GOONS and NpO. Yes, they could have cancelled on us and attacked like they did to FAN, but I'm just pointing out that NPO wasn't necessarily "in the reserves" for the ~ side. As for 404's actions and old GOONS govt. basically throwing the whole alliance away, I'm glad that this version of GOONS has a government that actually cares about the people within the alliance.

[Caliph]

[quote name='nippy' timestamp='1292501564' post='2540862']
I agree with everything posted above, except for the fact that NPO was still allied to both GOONS and NpO. Yes, they could have cancelled on us and attacked like they did to FAN, but I'm just pointing out that NPO wasn't necessarily "in the reserves" for the ~ side. As for 404's actions and old GOONS govt. basically throwing the whole alliance away, I'm glad that this version of GOONS has a government that actually cares about the people within the alliance.
[/quote]
The day after the Unjust Path got hit NPO cancelled the WUT, and publicly stated they would not be defending WUT or former WUT members on the Unjust side. They did also publicly state they would not attack former WUT members, and alluded to them counting down their 5 day cancellation period of the Drinking Buddies MDoAP with GOONS before NPO hit GOONS's MDoAP ally of MK.

NPO was in reserves for ~, just not against GOONS, \m/, TPF, or Genmay. However they did give complete diplomatic support to all those interested in our destruction, and did give full support, including military, against UjP allies.

[nippy]

[quote name='Caliph' timestamp='1292502280' post='2540864']
The day after the Unjust Path got hit NPO cancelled the WUT, and publicly stated they would not be defending WUT or former WUT members on the Unjust side. They did also publicly state they would not attack former WUT members, and alluded to them counting down their 5 day cancellation period of the Drinking Buddies MDoAP with GOONS before NPO hit GOONS's MDoAP ally of MK.

NPO was in reserves for ~, just not against GOONS, \m/, TPF, or Genmay. However they did give complete diplomatic support to all those interested in our destruction, and did give full support, including military, against UjP allies.
[/quote]

Ah, that explains it. Those of us that weren't in govt. at the time had no clue what was going on.

[Kalasin]

Electron Sponge never joins CN, thus the Harry Harper incident never takes place, Polar never backs Ivan Moldavi in the Moldavi Rebellion, and Dilber doesn't spend much of 2007 and 2008 plotting against Polar. The War of the Coalition therefore never happens and thus Karma never happens, and NPO remains in total hegemonic control until this day. Oh and the ODN probably gets rolled because Sponge never establishes the NpO/ODN friendship.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Caliph' timestamp='1292496159' post='2540836']
IRON was a founding member of One Vision, it was NPO, IRON, NpO, and GGA who founded it. Are you trying to bring up a scenario of "what if" IRON was not in 1V?

Edit: Ah, I think I see where you're coming from. I know IRON was never in BLEU, but in the UjP they hit GOONS and were countered by ...at least \m/, perhaps others, I remember counterring the NpO counter on Chairman Hal who was counterring IRON's attack on GOONS I was thinking that BLEU members, and additionally IRON and GGA, were big targets that could have been focused on and dealt much more damage which would have affected their ability to dominate right after the Unjust War. The power players that became One Vision after the war would have been clearly dominated by NPO if NpO, GGA, and IRON had taken significant damage during the war. BLEU would have been unable to muster the strength internally to really be the go getters they were after the war ended prematuraly instead of being fought to the end and if the UjP had followed a gameplan of focusing on a select few alliances to decimate.

I'm not saying the Unjust would have necessarily won in that scenario, but would have done a lot of damage and perhaps the go getters in the world immediately after the Unjust path would not have been BLEU for a time. Perhaps another alliance who didn't get hit as hard would have the desire to make a power play.[/quote]

actually cuz i was studying for a final, i made the mistake that IRON was not in 1V... oops. and yes if all other members of 1V had taken significant damage, NPO would have found it much easier to dominate 1V. though they did have success in dominating most of the members. that would have been quite interesting time had another alliance made power moves if BLEU/1V was weakened.

[Believland]

Manic Monday never happens.

[Panic King]

[quote name='The MVP' timestamp='1292285481' post='2538903']
Well, if being in a run of the mill alliance while complaining is your idea of changing the future then I'd say you're doing a pretty good job of that.

Anyways, how about the NpO didn't switch sides halfway through a war allowing its allies to burn and aiding the very same people who's victory they secured, and are now opposing?
[/quote]


[quote name='TheyCallMeJeezy' timestamp='1292286373' post='2538919']
Your tiny hardon for NpO is showing.
[/quote]
^^^^^^^
This man just spoke the truth!

[JBone]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1292469851' post='2540636']
I was, by my estimate, probably another round of combat or so from ZI (indeed at least one of the Legion nations attacking me had nukes he still hadn't popped at the time the war ended for us). I was also far from alone. Sure, some people within \m/ were far less damaged, but we were decisively engaged, had no reserves left, and even before the Bilrow incident we were talking about at least trying to get people to Peace Mode hoping to regroup, thinking perhaps we could get enough people to safety we could put together something resembling another combat wave in a week. The night the whole Bilrow thing blew up on the OWF, our military commander and the guy who held the plans for organizing said withdrawal resigned and bolted to Atlantis, an alliance in the enemy camp--not exactly a morale booster. Then there was the Bilrow revelation itself--after alliance leaders within the Initiative had essentially given their word that the OOC medical condition was not to be publicly released, here was 404 dumping it. I'll speculate that perhaps he sensed that the UJP was outnumbered to the point that victory was impossible, game over, and it was his last FU to CN. I won't ascribe motivations to what he did further other than to say that it was [b]wrong[/b] to the point that it pretty much sucked the joy of the fight out of me, indeed my motivation at that point went from trying to win the war to trying to ensure \m/ would survive it somehow by inflicting maximum damage on NpO in order to force them to the bargaining table. So far as I recall the offensive fizzled--not enough people out of anarchy or able to get out of peace mode at that point to matter. We did rather quickly get to that bargaining table however, but there was no bargaining, only the dictating of terms that were impossible to accept or even bring back to membership for consideration.

But let's be honest, barring major blundering on the part of ~ that war was always going to end in ~ victory, and it was going to end decisively, with the major alliances in the UJP disbanded, mostly dismantled, or hurting. Sponge simply outplayed the UJP on the diplomatic front, a job made significantly easier by the actions of the UJP themselves. Least some of you forget, NPO was actually in reserve for the most part during that war and could have been called forth to attack GOONS, \m/, or anyone else if needed. Sufficient quantity beats quality--just ask the Soviets after World War II.
[/quote]
I was in a TPF & \m/ military coordination chan waiting for Vir to show up when I learned of his running to Atlantis, that played no small part in TPFs love affair with them down the road, paybacks a !@#$%*.

Sponges hollow threats of eternal tech farming were a joke. He had neither the political clout nor the popular support to pull anything like that off.

The downfall of \m/ was due mostly to the lack of R & L.....or anyone to fill their shoes.

[quote name='Caliph' timestamp='1292502280' post='2540864']
The day after the Unjust Path got hit NPO cancelled the WUT, and publicly stated they would not be defending WUT or former WUT members on the Unjust side. They did also publicly state they would not attack former WUT members, and alluded to them counting down their 5 day cancellation period of the Drinking Buddies MDoAP with GOONS before NPO hit GOONS's MDoAP ally of MK.

NPO was in reserves for ~, just not against GOONS, \m/, TPF, or Genmay. However they did give complete diplomatic support to all those interested in our destruction, and did give full support, including military, against UjP allies.
[/quote]
I doubt they would have come in regardless, perhaps on some fringe front.

TPF was actually the only UjP AA they did not cancel on after dissolution of WUT.....a treaty we still hold to this day.

[Caliph]

[quote name='JBone' timestamp='1292544042' post='2541287']
I was in a TPF & \m/ military coordination chan waiting for Vir to show up when I learned of his running to Atlantis, that played no small part in TPFs love affair with them down the road, paybacks a !@#$%*.

Sponges hollow threats of eternal tech farming were a joke. He had neither the political clout nor the popular support to pull anything like that off.

The downfall of \m/ was due mostly to the lack of R & L.....or anyone to fill their shoes.
[/quote]
I agree with some of this. We were still reeling from Black Friday, mistrust still rang high, and we it didn't help that Viriullus outright surrendered and went to Atlantis, an alliance we felt in \m/ had betrayed us (they were our protoctorate at the time). It hurt us that R and LE were gone and for whatever reason our leaders at the time decided to disband rather than to fight it out to get a peace.

The one thing TPF has done since the UjW was isolate Atlantis on white, which played a part in their disbandment. Everything else reeked of selling us out, especially NPO's decision to keep you around but ditch the rest of us at a time when we viewed NPO as an ally. We legitimately thought they would either stay neutral or help us, since we were agressively attacked. Seeing you go to them and seeing them give their full support to the other side, and seeing you get white peace and everyone else on that bloc getting harsh terms, and coalition members all having to pay reps, that has never sat well with me.

[quote name='JBone' timestamp='1292544042' post='2541287']
I doubt they would have come in regardless, perhaps on some fringe front.

TPF was actually the only UjP AA they did not cancel on after dissolution of WUT.....a treaty we still hold to this day.
[/quote]
THey did come in on some fringe front, they hit GOLD and 2 or 3 small alliances, just to prove that they were on the ~ side. They publicly announced they were giving ~ their full diplomatic support, and were on their side. Support turned military once the Unjust Highway was crumbling.

The fact NPO stuck with you and ditched the rest of us didn't sit well with me either. We thought of them a stand up ally who would honor their treaties with us at the very least. Turns out we were wrong.

[Beauty]

For Superfriends to roll MK way back when MK spied on them, No one can deny that would completely change today's CN.

[Sandwich Controversy]

[quote name='Rotavele' timestamp='1292549339' post='2541362']
For Superfriends to roll MK way back when MK spied on them, No one can deny that would completely change today's CN.
[/quote]
hahaha yes this is exactly what happened

[JBone]

[quote name='Caliph' timestamp='1292546945' post='2541326']
I agree with some of this. We were still reeling from Black Friday, mistrust still rang high, and we it didn't help that Viriullus outright surrendered and went to Atlantis, an alliance we felt in \m/ had betrayed us (they were our protoctorate at the time). It hurt us that R and LE were gone and for whatever reason our leaders at the time decided to disband rather than to fight it out to get a peace.

The one thing TPF has done since the UjW was isolate Atlantis on white, which played a part in their disbandment. Everything else reeked of selling us out, especially NPO's decision to keep you around but ditch the rest of us at a time when we viewed NPO as an ally. We legitimately thought they would either stay neutral or help us, since we were agressively attacked. Seeing you go to them and seeing them give their full support to the other side, and seeing you get white peace and everyone else on that bloc getting harsh terms, and coalition members all having to pay reps, that has never sat well with me.[/quote]
If I was in your shoes I would most likely have felt the same way. But understand we were the new kids in WUT, due in no small part to NPO. We were much closer to them than to all the other signatories combined. It was being in UjP that was an error on our part....hence my initial wish (post) that UjP was never created.

[quote name='Caliph' timestamp='1292546945' post='2541326']
THey did come in on some fringe front, they hit GOLD and 2 or 3 small alliances, just to prove that they were on the ~ side. They publicly announced they were giving ~ their full diplomatic support, and were on their side. Support turned military once the Unjust Highway was crumbling.

The fact NPO stuck with you and ditched the rest of us didn't sit well with me either. We thought of them a stand up ally who would honor their treaties with us at the very least. Turns out we were wrong.
[/quote]
Wow, forgot all about GOLD.

I would like to think they stuck with us due to the friendship that existed between our respective governments, especially in the #1 spots.

Perhaps because they really didn't see us as a credible threat to their power base played a part as well, more likely due to the fact that Sponge had no deep hatred of TPF at that time relative to other UjP members.

I enjoyed this, thanks for the civil give & take.

[Beauty]

[quote name='Sandwich Controversy' timestamp='1292549516' post='2541365']
hahaha yes this is exactly what happened
[/quote]

I was in RIA at the time, so I do know only one side of the story, but I do remember when war was brought up. That was the main point.

[Lord Levistus]

Valhalla and Legion being allowed to finish the fight as the UJW wound down.

[chefjoe]

[quote name='bigwoody' timestamp='1292306912' post='2539295']
Doubt it. UJP was all about as much war as possible. D.V. setting up coordinated small alliance rollings on a weekly basis just because at one point being an example.

UJP winning would have been a fun result, but either they would have been overthrown quickly by a ticked off coalition, [b]or they may have literally broken the game much like a certain CN player broke a certain other game that existed around that time.[/b][/quote]


MK should probably thank the player responsible for wrecking that other game and driving them back to PB

[Prime minister Johns]

I was thinking today, what would CN still be like if Ivan Moldavi never left being emperor of the NPO...

Perhaps his leadership might of held together the alliance in the face of karma.

Or perhaps he would of recognized the OV maneuver as a trap and avoided it somehow.

Alternative history is so much fun.

[Caliph]

[quote name='Prime minister Johns' timestamp='1292860315' post='2546585']
I was thinking today, what would CN still be like if Ivan Moldavi never left being emperor of the NPO...

Perhaps his leadership might of held together the alliance in the face of karma.

Or perhaps he would of recognized the OV maneuver as a trap and avoided it somehow.

Alternative history is so much fun.
[/quote]
Well, if Ivan Moldavi never stepped down, and assuming he stayed active enough, that might have changed several events in history. My understanding was Dilber really put together the Initiative, and it was the Initiatives power that allowed NPO to win GW2 and 3. I don't know my NPO history enough to know if Ivan Moldavi was still Emperor in NPO when the WUT was announced or not.

If he never stepped down, the FA of NPO would have been different indeed, and I suppose it would have changed a lot of events involving NPO. Perhaps they wouldn't have branched out to certain alliances that they did, perhaps the friendships they ended up with would have been developed sooner.

I would think the Karma situation either would have happened much sooner (a repeat of GW1), or not allowed to get off the ground because Ivan would have stomped those that were trying before they were ready.

[Delta1212]

[quote name='Caliph' timestamp='' post='']
Well, if Ivan Moldavi never stepped down, and assuming he stayed active enough, that might have changed several events in history. My understanding was Dilber really put together the Initiative, and it was the Initiatives power that allowed NPO to win GW2 and 3. I don't know my NPO history enough to know if Ivan Moldavi was still Emperor in NPO when the WUT was announced or not.

If he never stepped down, the FA of NPO would have been different indeed, and I suppose it would have changed a lot of events involving NPO. Perhaps they wouldn't have branched out to certain alliances that they did, perhaps the friendships they ended up with would have been developed sooner.

I would think the Karma situation either would have happened much sooner (a repeat of GW1), or not allowed to get off the ground because Ivan would have stomped those that were trying before they were ready.
[/quote]
it's a bit like positing "William the Conqueror's invasion of England fails in 1066" and staing that the result would be a British victory in the American Revolution.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Caliph' timestamp='1292890152' post='2547204']
Well, if Ivan Moldavi never stepped down, and assuming he stayed active enough, that might have changed several events in history. My understanding was Dilber really put together the Initiative, and it was the Initiatives power that allowed NPO to win GW2 and 3. I don't know my NPO history enough to know if Ivan Moldavi was still Emperor in NPO when the WUT was announced or not.

If he never stepped down, the FA of NPO would have been different indeed, and I suppose it would have changed a lot of events involving NPO. Perhaps they wouldn't have branched out to certain alliances that they did, perhaps the friendships they ended up with would have been developed sooner.

I would think the Karma situation either would have happened much sooner (a repeat of GW1), or not allowed to get off the ground because Ivan would have stomped those that were trying before they were ready.
[/quote]

the one thing that you seem to not realize is that Dilber would have most likely run the FA department and things could very well have ended up the same cuz of that. or possibly, Ivan would have been more ruthless than Dilber was.