Operation flySWATter

[Arrnea]

[quote name='Muddog' timestamp='1291540118' post='2530827']I'm the last person I really expected to be making this statement, but do any of the alliances involved have any major hard or soft power, or is this the small drops of drama that are trickling out the pipe tonight. Sorry, I'm really confused as to what's going.[/quote]
Athens certainly has some power. Invicta (who are aiding RED) also have some power.

CoJ (also aiding RED) is pretty loud, whether they have real global power is arguable.

Edited December 5, 2010 by Arrnea

[Locke]

[quote name='Biazt' timestamp='1291539518' post='2530820']
And people say moralists are a figment of our imagination
[/quote]
Believe it or not, I don't exist.

[quote name='Muddog' timestamp='1291540118' post='2530827']
I'm the last person I really expected to be making this statement, but do any of the alliances involved have any major hard or soft power, or is this the small drops of drama that are trickling out the pipe tonight. Sorry, I'm really confused as to what's going.
[/quote]
When you are not sure where to start, the best place is at the beginning.

[Joseph Black]

[quote name='Arrnea' timestamp='1291540259' post='2530829']
Athens certainly has some power. Invicta (who are aiding RED) also have some power.

CoJ (also aiding RED) is pretty loud, whether they have real global power is arguable.
[/quote]

I suppose this could become something than.Thank you.

[quote name='Locke' timestamp='1291540382' post='2530832']
Believe it or not, I don't exist.


When you are not sure where to start, the best place is at the beginning.
[/quote]

Problem with starting at the beginning is when your lost in the middle, mind pointing me in the right direction

[Locke]

[quote name='Muddog' timestamp='1291540689' post='2530835']
I suppose this could become something than.Thank you.



Problem with starting at the beginning is when your lost in the middle, mind pointing me in the right direction
[/quote]
Well, you can start here: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=95206
Followed by the beginning of this topic.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Biazt' timestamp='1291539518' post='2530820']
And people say moralists are a figment of our imagination
[/quote]
Biazt, this is clearly e-lawyering and not moralizing.

Aid a nation at war with GOONS: $90m, please.
Question aiding a nation at war with not-GOONS: GOONS calls moralist.

Edited December 5, 2010 by Schattenmann

[Hyperbad]

[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1291538899' post='2530814']
Your premise is wrong. Diplomatic recognition is meaningless. You cannot project your interpretations on anyone else.[/quote]
If diplomatic recognition is meaningless then why is there typically so much debate over what makes an alliance well, an alliance? Why not recognize every group of players an alliance without playing semantics? Should you prefer to speak frankly and in a manner you can not here, feel free to message me your response.

[quote]Athens does not allow raiding of alliances. Athens has determined that 20 or a military level treaty(ODP and up) is the criteria to make you an alliance. You can have 19 members in your alliance. All registered on our forums. We might even give them all dilo masks. It does not make them an alliance, and it continues to maintain them as legal raid targets.[/quote]
Issuing of diplomatic recognition is indeed meaningless here since I was under the presumption your posts have largely been of your personal views and only about Athen's policy in the cases where one alleges you're aiding a rogue. I never asked if Athens recognizes them as being an alliance but was responding to your personal comments which suggests that they exist as an alliance in every facet imaginable. They merely lack the treaty ties and membership to make the cut and receive what ever immunity or protection (from raiding included) offered by meeting the criteria your alliance sets forth which enables you to respond as you have and aid a party engaged in combat. Personal views can indeed differ from policy or have subtle differences, like those I mentioned. One can clearly see a group as an alliance personally but for practical reasons not afford them the same privileges you would others. I suppose my initial post in this thread wasn't properly worded for the intention and put you on the defensive out the gate without investigating what role you were speaking as and wound up in a debate on semantics myself.

If however you've been speaking as a representative of Athens the entire time then my response most certainly is off base and a proper response would have been questioning whether your originally stated view of Sajasabie being wrong for their alleged band wagoning in affairs which are of no concern to them was a position you honestly believed in. The doubt would come from your willingness to influence events yourself in a conflict you also are not a party to thus committing a wrong in your own eyes. Of course it is entirely possible for you to feel there are limits to what wrongs are tolerable as an uninvolved party but then that would be disregarding others own views in this regard and still puts you in a position no better than the ones you are deriding.

[Vanilla Napalm]

Meh. If another alliance want's to hit someone else's rogues for no particular reason then that's their prerogative. However, i see no reason why:
1. You felt the need to bring in the protectorate protecting you to announce that their protectorate would be protected.
2. Write up an announcement that, whilst reminiscent of TOPs declaration of war against MK, has absolutely no implications.
3. There isn't anyone else hitting you besides BoS. Dull times.

[wickedj]

whine whine whine Athens did something immoral ....SWAT is immoral

oh god people, shut up please. i know we're all bored but holy cow go shovel snow

also GOONs commenting itt is !@#$@#$ hilarious

Edited December 5, 2010 by wickedj

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Mr Damsky' timestamp='1291532598' post='2530721']
Unless SOS Brigade wishes to feel the wrath of the Brotherhood it would behoove you not to do this.
[/quote]
If that proposal offends you that much, then you probably want to declare war on the people who've already taken this step.

[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1291535683' post='2530767']
You heard it here 1st folks. 21 vs 2 is even.

NEVER EVER CHANGE !
[/quote]
Actually it's worse.

The alliance Red Elite Defence possesses seven public wonders.

The rogue alliance Cat Land possesses eight public wonders.

The alliance Sajasabie possesses twenty-one public wonders.

The other rogue alliance Brotherhood Of Steel possesses one public wonder.

Notably, all of Cat Land's wonders are in the NS range of 10,801.34 down to 6,075.76. In that range, Sajasabie has two nations, none of which have any wonders, and Red Elite Defence has four nations, none of which have any wonders. So it may look like six on one, but every single one of those six are completely outgunned by Cat Land and will not be able to do much more than fire off a couple CMs each day.

I know why they're doing this; it's because nations at war can't be accepted into alliances, and the nations that are fighting Cat Land should be easily rebuilt by foreign aid. If Athens wants to actually help the ruler they claim as their friend, they probably should start trying to persuade him to be reasonable.

Edited December 5, 2010 by Haflinger

[The MVP]

[quote name='Arrnea' timestamp='1291540259' post='2530829']
Athens certainly has some power.[b] Invicta (who are aiding RED) also have some power.[/b]

CoJ (also aiding RED) is pretty loud, whether they have real global power is arguable.
[/quote]


haha that's a good o-

Oh, you were serious?

[Arrnea]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1291546831' post='2530852']If that proposal offends you that much, then you probably want to declare war on the people who've already taken this step.[/quote]
They're welcome to do so, we'll be ready. We fully intend on taking that step, just as soon as some aid slots become available.

[quote name='The MVP' timestamp='1291553473' post='2530871']haha that's a good o-

Oh, you were serious? [/quote]
Hey, I think Invicta is a joke as much as the next sensible poster, but one cannot argue that an alliance with over 2,000,000 Nation Strength and five MDoAPs (one of which is with NPO, the biggest nuclear power on Bob) does not have at least [b]some[/b] power in this world.

But please, feel free to ignore those rather inconvenient facts.

Edited December 5, 2010 by Arrnea

[Fernando12]

[quote name='Earogema' timestamp='1291535828' post='2530768']
Earogema posts v. Rush
[/quote][quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1291535865' post='2530769']
Schatt's posts v. Rush
[/quote][quote name='Locke' timestamp='1291535991' post='2530770']
Locke's posts v. Rush
[/quote]
You guys need to stop bandwagoning Rush ITT.

Also, Locke stop it. You're making me like you, it's horrifying.

[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1291536295' post='2530777']
Rush's posts ITT
[/quote]
Just stop dude, you're hopelessly outclassed by Schatt and Earogema and yes even Locke and you have no solid argument. The argument goes both ways. Athens can say RED is not an alliance just as any alliance on Bob can recognize RED as an alliance and make Athens' aiding of Swat an act of war. You say Swat is not a rogue. Many disagree and say he is. It will be a matter of wills and who does more to push their view of things. Right now Sajasabie has stepped up and is doing something about it. Rush, deal with it. You are being told where to take your BS yet again. You're previous experience with getting told should help

Edited December 5, 2010 by Fernando12

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Arrnea' timestamp='1291559745' post='2530896']
They're welcome to do so, we'll be ready. We fully intend on taking that step, just as soon as some aid slots become available.
[/quote]
We anticipate your support of our decision.

[quote name='Arrnea' timestamp='1291559745' post='2530896']
Hey, I think Invicta is a joke as much as the next sensible poster, but one cannot argue that an alliance with over 2,000,000 Nation Strength and five MDoAPs (one of which is with NPO, the biggest nuclear power on Bob) does not have at least [b]some[/b] power in this world.

But please, feel free to ignore those rather inconvenient facts.
[/quote]
Seven MDPs actually.

[AnCapistan]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1291546831' post='2530852']
If that proposal offends you that much, then you probably want to declare war on the people who've already taken this step.
[/quote]

I'll be attacking anyone aiding the bandwagoners known as Sajasabie. Anyone aiding RED is fine.

[kulomascovia]

Good luck Ernie!

[SWAT128]

RED has never contacted me about peace after I contacted their leader, so it seems to me like he doesn't care I wrecked one of his nations. As for Sajasabie, good for you guys. Everyone else against my attacks seemed content to sit back and do nothing to help RED out. Though I thought I'd be attacked by NPO or Invicta, not some random green team alliance.

Edited December 5, 2010 by SWAT128

[Haflinger]

[quote name='SWAT128' timestamp='1291568470' post='2530979']
RED has never contacted me about peace after I contacted their leader, so it seems to me like he doesn't care I wrecked one of his nations. As for Sajasabie, good for you guys. Everyone else against my attacks seemed content to sit back and do nothing to help RED out. Though I thought I'd be attacked by NPO or Invicta, not some random green team alliance.
[/quote]
At this time, we think the action that we have taken is better for our teammates than attacking you would be.

[WorldConqueror]

[quote name='SWAT128' timestamp='1291568470' post='2530979']
RED has never contacted me about peace after I contacted their leader, so it seems to me like he doesn't care I wrecked one of his nations. As for Sajasabie, good for you guys. Everyone else against my attacks seemed content to sit back and do nothing to help RED out. Though I thought I'd be attacked by NPO or Invicta, not some random green team alliance.
[/quote]
Not sure why we keep getting brought up in relation to RED...

[SWAT128]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1291570295' post='2531001']
At this time, we think the action that we have taken is better for our teammates than attacking you would be.
[/quote]

Doing nothing sure seems to the "in" thing these days.

[SWAT128]

[quote name='WorldConqueror' timestamp='1291570365' post='2531002']
Not sure why we keep getting brought up in relation to RED...
[/quote]

Some of your fellow members made a point that they didn't like what I was doing. I thought one of them might do something, though I appear to be wrong now.

[WorldConqueror]

[quote name='SWAT128' timestamp='1291570515' post='2531009']
Some of your fellow members made a point that they didn't like what I was doing. I thought one of them might do something, though I appear to be wrong now.
[/quote]
Really, I don't remember seeing those posts. Though a member expressing disdain at your actions is not a formal tie between NPO and RED, so I'm not sure why you try to bring the whole Order into it.

[AnCapistan]

[quote name='WorldConqueror' timestamp='1291571192' post='2531015']
Really, I don't remember seeing those posts. Though a member expressing disdain at your actions is not a formal tie between NPO and RED, so I'm not sure why you try to bring the whole Order into it.
[/quote]

Because he's an unprotected nation attacking the red sphere. His concern is pretty valid.

[SWAT128]

[quote name='WorldConqueror' timestamp='1291571192' post='2531015']
Really, I don't remember seeing those posts. Though a member expressing disdain at your actions is not a formal tie between NPO and RED, so I'm not sure why you try to bring the whole Order into it.
[/quote]


You guys used to be the red team's protectors, I thought you still might hold that title. Mostly just wishing for someone to do something though, and I got what I wanted.

Edited December 5, 2010 by SWAT128

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='wickedj' timestamp='1291544233' post='2530845']
whine whine whine Athens did something immoral ....SWAT is immoral

oh god people, shut up please. i know we're all bored but holy cow go shovel snow

also GOONs commenting itt is !@#$@#$ hilarious
[/quote]

I'm pretty surprised it took 6 pages before someone from Athens called us moralists. Uh oh, silver bullet right there.

What's "moral" about asking Athens to follow the same principles of aiding nations at war that every alliance on the planet follows? Are GOONS moralists? After all, CoJ--supposed moralists ourselves--paid GOONS $20m and some tech for aiding a nation at war with them. Were we railroaded by the moralist threat? No. Regardless of the precipitating factors, we did a no-no, and regardless of the debate over the circumstances, at the end of the day we got out our checkbook and made it right. Because you don't aid nations at war.

[WorldConqueror]

[quote name='Mr Damsky' timestamp='1291571284' post='2531016']
Because he's an unprotected nation attacking the red sphere. His concern is pretty valid.
[/quote]
[quote name='SWAT128' timestamp='1291571391' post='2531017']
You guys used to be the red team's protectors, I thought you still might hold that title. Mostly just wishing for someone to do something though, and I got what I wanted.
[/quote]
As people that try desperately to provoke a reaction from us, you really should know what you're talking about. First of all, we don't give blanket protection to red alliances. Second, those that are raided have to pro-actively approach us for help. So, well done guys.