The Viridian Entente

[leprecon]

[quote name='The MVP' timestamp='1285882859' post='2470212']
Yet you knew Polaris head would soon be on the chopping block. As you called it, it is [i]opportunistic[/i]. You got out of a treaty that would have landed you in a bad situation. Besides that's not the incident I was referring to and I wasn't even talking about you.
[/quote]

[b]June 18th.[/b] NpO attacks a VE treaty partner after one hour prior notice. (I can't possibly see how this is ok in any way)
[b]June ?.[/b] VE finds out a lot of people are connecting to the VE forums through one single account. Someone tells VE the people are NpO members and the login and pass is being spread openly on the NpO forums. VE asks NpO to remove the login details from their forums, and perhaps punish the one responsible. [size="1"](and don't even dare say that the account wasn't that important, VE is a soveirgn alliance that doesn't want its allies to decide who gets to see our forums and who doesn't.)[/size]
NpO leadership accuses the VE of spying and ofcourse we all know how the negotiations ended. [size="1"](yeah right ... spying on our allies? Why the hell would we do that? If we would do that, don't you think we would have noticed that FIST was getting rolled? It is also in poor taste to accuse a treaty partner of spying.)[/size]

[b]June 22nd.[/b] VE cancels on NpO.

<two month gap>

[b]August 11th. [/b]Everybody declares war on NpO.


You see that thing in the middle? It is a two month gap. Two months is a lot of time to prepare for a war that apparently everybody knew was coming... Or even better, NpO could have tried to diffuse the situation. See the first part? The part before the VE cancelled? That should be enough reason to suspect that VE and NpO shouldn't be allied. This isn't I don't like you anymore, this is; "you are attacking my protectorates and having fun looking at our forums using others their accounts."

Also notable is how nobody had cancelled on NpO untill the VE did it. We weren't trying to abandon NpO. NpO wasn't abandoned, they had plenty of allies.

Edited September 30, 2010 by leprecon

[Reptyler]

[quote name='The MVP' timestamp='1285882859' post='2470212']My point is at one point you were thought to be the [i]antithysis[/i] (sp?) of GOONS and now are allied to them and support their actions. VE historically, it appears, doesn't stand for much other than siding with the part that has the most alliances.

And isn't it just the most opportunistic thing that GOONS now are in a position of power and when you opposed them they were on their way to defeat?
[/quote]
Let me share with you a personal story, if you will. Normally I do not speak so freely in these forums, but I feel it may give you some much-needed insight.

I hate GOONS. I really do. After VE disbanded, I had a few encounters with them that were absolutely horrible. I still remember some of the teasing I endured when I posted on their boards. When we had the chance to reform, it was quite bitter having to do so on GGA and NPO's terms, but I took solace in the fact that GOONS were now facing the refining fire of nuclear armageddon.

When these new GOONS showed up, I assumed we would wait long enough for them to screw up and then crush them. If there's one thing CyberNations has taught me, it is patience. So I waited. But these new GOONS were very cautious. I scrutinized them, waiting for something worthy of a solid CB, but they did a decent job of squirming out of the problems that most new alliances face.

To my horror, they started talking to us. And they were being [b]nice[/b]! Of course, it's easy to be nice when you're sent as an official diplomat. That's just one person, and they're trained to talk sweet to people they hate. I didn't trust them, no sir, I hated the GOONS and their Umbrella stooges.

I was against it when Seth pushed for us to think about allying GOONS. I was so sure that they would betray us, and that nothing but rotten things could come from them. It had to be a trap, why in the world would the GOONS want to be so kind to us? It had to be a scheme to try and get our guard down. As soon as the opportunity presented itself, GOONS would stab us in the back and laugh like an evil cartoon villain.

The talks went on for weeks. I didn't pay much attention because I didn't think it would ever amount to a treaty. But it did. I posted on the VE forums saying it would be "a cold day in hell before I side with GOONS on anything important". No joke, I was pissed.

Around this point, I started reading the forums more. I got a job working in the State department in addition to IA, so I got to be a diplomat. And a funny thing started happening. I started to feel pity for the GOONS. No matter what they did, everyone wanted to smear them. And I'll be damned, if they didn't defend themselves so well from verbal assaults on all sides. I began to see the distinct difference between the new GOONS and the Neutral Shoving ones. This was truly a different sort of scoundrel.

It was so strange, I actually started to respect these GOONS. And then I started to feel bad for doubting their efforts to be nice. The more I talked to them, the more I liked them. And the more I thought about it, the more I decided that they truly had changed, and I had to let go of my old grudges. As one of the old guard of VE, one of the few remaining who was there for the Green Civil War, I had a change of heart, based upon what I saw and what I heard and what I felt. I forgave them. And it was pretty damn liberating.

Yes, VE was the antithesis of hatred, of the unjust, of constant trolling and making fun based on speculated real names, sexual orientations, racial backgrounds, etc. I received slurs of all those types from the Neutral Shoving GOONS. But to continue to hold grudges and hate on the GOONS made us blind and hateful, as well. We all make mistakes in this life, and to withhold forgiveness is hypocritical, for we are all in need of forgiveness at some point or another. It's been said that holding a grudge is like drinking poison and waiting for the other person to die. I refuse to hold VE down like that any longer. I have forgiven, and based on what I've seen from the new GOONS, I am willing to give them another chance.

[Bill Wallace]

MVP, RV - You guys are reaching. If you were a member of VE prior to IRON canceling on us and us canceling on NPO, you'd understand that no one felt good about the place we were in when it came to some of our allies at the time. This is not meant to bash on NPO or IRON because it's all behind us, but I promise you that when those two events happened, VE's general membership basically threw a party and the general feeling was that we were finally rid of our chains. We all thought that we were going to get rolled and fully expected to be decimated, but it didn't matter.

As for your assumptions that we buddy up with whoever is in power, we've had longstanding treaties with members of SF and C&G that date back prior to the Karma War. Those haven't changed and no one could have predicted a year and a half ago that NPO would be isolated and not at the top of the food chain. Remember, our treaties with NPO and IRON ended before the Karma War. As for our newer allies, what can I say? We continue to grow as an alliance and as people. We've reached out to some and others have reached out to us. We're a meritocracy so as new leaders come in, new ways of doing things are presented. The point is, like any other alliance, we are constantly evolving and I just don't see what's hypocritical about that.

Anyways, I completely understand that Planet Bob needs a new boogeyman and it's painfully obvious that there's an orchestrated attempt by a few to create one out of GOONS, VE, MK, or whoever. When these attempts fail, you guys will move on to someone else. I think some of the guys in Umbrella and GOD are a little jealous of the attention GOONS and VE are getting so maybe you can make a thread about them? No wait, you guys ought to bash Tetris and World Federation. Talk about terrible alliances!

[ktarthan]

[quote name='The MVP' timestamp='1285882859' post='2470212']
My point is at one point you were thought to be the [i]antithysis[/i] (sp?) of GOONS and now are allied to them and support their actions. VE historically, it appears, doesn't stand for much other than siding with the part that has the most alliances.

And isn't it just the most opportunistic thing that GOONS now are in a position of power and when you opposed them they were on their way to defeat?
[/quote]
They were thought to be the antithesis of Neutral Shoving. Not Negligence and Sadism.

And what you didn't see is the near two months of GOONS approaching and talking with VE to build relations and show ourselves to be worthwhile friends, with many in VE going "Hmm" and "Hmmmmmmmm". You make it sound like they came crashing down our door in need of a treaty.

Edit: Reptyler, thanks for the very well written first-hand account. That was pretty damn heartwarming.

Edited September 30, 2010 by ktarthan

[Iserlohn]

[quote name='ktarthan' timestamp='1285887343' post='2470293']
Reptyler, thanks for the very well written first-hand account. That was pretty damn heartwarming.
[/quote]

Yeah, it was actually really touching, no joke. Thank you, Reptyler.

[JT Jag]

[quote name='Reptyler' timestamp='1285887039' post='2470286']
Let me share with you a personal story, if you will. Normally I do not speak so freely in these forums, but I feel it may give you some much-needed insight.

I hate GOONS. I really do. After VE disbanded, I had a few encounters with them that were absolutely horrible. I still remember some of the teasing I endured when I posted on their boards. When we had the chance to reform, it was quite bitter having to do so on GGA and NPO's terms, but I took solace in the fact that GOONS were now facing the refining fire of nuclear armageddon.

When these new GOONS showed up, I assumed we would wait long enough for them to screw up and then crush them. If there's one thing CyberNations has taught me, it is patience. So I waited. But these new GOONS were very cautious. I scrutinized them, waiting for something worthy of a solid CB, but they did a decent job of squirming out of the problems that most new alliances face.

To my horror, they started talking to us. And they were being [b]nice[/b]! Of course, it's easy to be nice when you're sent as an official diplomat. That's just one person, and they're trained to talk sweet to people they hate. I didn't trust them, no sir, I hated the GOONS and their Umbrella stooges.

I was against it when Seth pushed for us to think about allying GOONS. I was so sure that they would betray us, and that nothing but rotten things could come from them. It had to be a trap, why in the world would the GOONS want to be so kind to us? It had to be a scheme to try and get our guard down. As soon as the opportunity presented itself, GOONS would stab us in the back and laugh like an evil cartoon villain.

The talks went on for weeks. I didn't pay much attention because I didn't think it would ever amount to a treaty. But it did. I posted on the VE forums saying it would be "a cold day in hell before I side with GOONS on anything important". No joke, I was pissed.

Around this point, I started reading the forums more. I got a job working in the State department in addition to IA, so I got to be a diplomat. And a funny thing started happening. I started to feel pity for the GOONS. No matter what they did, everyone wanted to smear them. And I'll be damned, if they didn't defend themselves so well from verbal assaults on all sides. I began to see the distinct difference between the new GOONS and the Neutral Shoving ones. This was truly a different sort of scoundrel.

It was so strange, I actually started to respect these GOONS. And then I started to feel bad for doubting their efforts to be nice. The more I talked to them, the more I liked them. And the more I thought about it, the more I decided that they truly had changed, and I had to let go of my old grudges. As one of the old guard of VE, one of the few remaining who was there for the Green Civil War, I had a change of heart, based upon what I saw and what I heard and what I felt. I forgave them. And it was pretty damn liberating.

Yes, VE was the antithesis of hatred, of the unjust, of constant trolling and making fun based on speculated real names, sexual orientations, racial backgrounds, etc. I received slurs of all those types from the Neutral Shoving GOONS. But to continue to hold grudges and hate on the GOONS made us blind and hateful, as well. We all make mistakes in this life, and to withhold forgiveness is hypocritical, for we are all in need of forgiveness at some point or another. It's been said that holding a grudge is like drinking poison and waiting for the other person to die. I refuse to hold VE down like that any longer. I have forgiven, and based on what I've seen from the new GOONS, I am willing to give them another chance.
[/quote]Right where we want you.

[JT Jag]

But seriously, that was a fantastic post and it made me feel all fuzzy inside.

[Beefspari]

o7 Hats off to my friends and buddies in VE.

VE had a long road of overcoming obstacles with us. We walked carefully along and let them see things from our point of view for a change. Slowly, over the course of time, they started to realize that the things we say about unwarranted and blind hatred were true. No doubt, GOONS screws up and does stupid things from time to time. No doubt, sometimes our regular members are just plain idiots. But overall, I don't find us to be any worse than any given alliance. Lots of people are rowdy or sassy here on the forums. Lots of people make mistakes. We do however clean up ours.

It's just that, being GOONS, and having a "history" of sorts, people focus on our shortcomings and stretch them. People focus on the bad we do, and not the good we do. Or even focus on the bad and hold it on high, while ignoring the actions we take to prevent and fix those things. Or even just claim we're the worst things ever, or nothing but a rehash of the old GOONS.

I watch a lot of inner- and outer-workings. I get to see other alliances get away with things we never could. I get to see how our policies and procedures are much tighter than a lot of other alliances. Sometimes I even get to see people get a free pass doing literally the exact same things we got chewed out for. I get to see people descend on GOONS for no reason other than we're GOONS.

Eventually I think VE realized a lot of this. Sitting on the fence let them lean the way they wanted to, and they ended up coming this way. I enjoy the good friends and bonds we have with VE. From this side of the fence it's a lot easier to see where the blind hatred is coming from and where it's hitting.

In a way, I think this is starting to happen with STA. No doubt a lot of STA still doesn't like us, but they're beginning to see that there are far less reasons to not like us than they thought.

So here's to friends like VE, possibly future friends like STA, and whatever else the future brings for GOONS. o7

[Sal Paradise]

VE has never been an alliance worthy of praise. Sometimes they're on the right side, but never for the right reasons. Their greatest achievement has been convincing so many that they are an honourable and upstanding alliance. Even the fact that people become occasionally disappointed in them is evidence of this.

[Reptyler]

[quote name='Sal Paradise' timestamp='1285890024' post='2470339']
VE has never been an alliance worthy of praise. Sometimes they're on the right side, but never for the right reasons. Their greatest achievement has been convincing so many that they are an honourable and upstanding alliance. Even the fact that people become occasionally disappointed in them is evidence of this.
[/quote]
All of us are in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Baltus' timestamp='1285884366' post='2470246']
Yep. How dare Viridia change their attitude over anything over 4 years? How dare they? That's insane. Changing YOUR opinions? I think they should be jailed. Along with every other alliance, for conducting CN Politics, and changing opinions.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]VE has jumped in bed with the neo-UJP, becoming a mockery of everything it once stood for. I'd say that's a little more than simply changing attitudes. But I wouldn't expect a VE lackey such as WF to say otherwise.

And Reptyler, you whole "two month" gap thing, rubbish. During that time, and in late June, everyone knew what was up. People orchestrated a mass cancellation on Polaris in order to isolate them, and then in the following month several NpO allies were attacked with flimsy reasoning in order to bait the NpO into a war.

As for Dark Fist, considering that NpO was under siege, and SCM impersonates high ranking NpO officials (and he is the leader of DF mind you), is a reason for war. He deserved to have some sense smacked into him.

And Chickenzilla, there really was no proof other than speculation, and it was the resignations forum of all things. Please, I do not buy your whole NpO was a terrible ally. You needed a reason to cancel on them because you knew they were going to get rolled soon. That's all there is to it.[/color]

[Reptyler]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1285890596' post='2470348']
[color="#0000FF"]VE has jumped in bed with the neo-UJP, becoming a mockery of everything it once stood for. I'd say that's a little more than simply changing attitudes. But I wouldn't expect a VE lackey such as WF to say otherwise.

And Reptyler, you whole "two month" gap thing, rubbish. During that time, and in late June, everyone knew what was up. People orchestrated a mass cancellation on Polaris in order to isolate them, and then in the following month several NpO allies were attacked with flimsy reasoning in order to bait the NpO into a war.

As for Dark Fist, considering that NpO was under siege, and SCM impersonates high ranking NpO officials (and he is the leader of DF mind you), is a reason for war. He deserved to have some sense smacked into him.

And Chickenzilla, there really was no proof other than speculation, and it was the resignations forum of all things. Please, I do not buy your whole NpO was a terrible ally. You needed a reason to cancel on them because you knew they were going to get rolled soon. That's all there is to it.[/color]
[/quote]
While there are falsehoods and misrepresentations in this post, probably most puzzling is that none of it has anything to do with me, despite my name being dropped.

[Sephiroth]

Even though my war with VE ended and I was even doing a tech deal with a member, VE sanctioned me on Green due to my war with GOONS, so I haven't been able to send the last 50 tech or trade with the green team. I had to use a middle man to send some tech to one nation I owed to on green due to the sanction. My opinion of VE with how our war seemed to of concluded boosted my opinion of them, but them assisting GOONS in the war by using their sanctions for them despite KN and VE coming to a peace agreement disappoints me and causing any boosted opinion I had of them to diminish as they continue to support GOONS.

Edited October 1, 2010 by Methrage

[Tigerdonia Redux]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1285892479' post='2470383']
Even though my war with VE ended and I was even doing a tech deal with a member, VE sanctioned me on Green due to my war with GOONS, so I haven't been able to send the last 50 tech or trade with the green team. I had to use a middle man to send some tech to one nation I owed to on green due to the sanction. My opinion of VE with how our war seemed to of concluded boosted my opinion of them, but them assisting GOONS in the war by using their sanctions for them despite KN and VE coming to a peace agreement disappoints me and causing any boosted opinion I had of them to diminish as they continue to support GOONS.
[/quote]

Don't forget I spied you too! But that was just me.

[Alivieina]

Great job Rep.

[AnCapistan]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1285892479' post='2470383']
Even though my war with VE ended and I was even doing a tech deal with a member, VE sanctioned me on Green due to my war with GOONS, so I haven't been able to send the last 50 tech or trade with the green team. I had to use a middle man to send some tech to one nation I owed to on green due to the sanction. My opinion of VE with how our war seemed to of concluded boosted my opinion of them, but them assisting GOONS in the war by using their sanctions for them despite KN and VE coming to a peace agreement disappoints me and causing any boosted opinion I had of them to diminish as they continue to support GOONS.
[/quote]

That's what happens when you nuke rogue our ally.

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Mr Damsky' timestamp='1285894038' post='2470424']
That's what happens when you nuke rogue our ally.
[/quote]
We disagree on the rogue part and that you insist on classifying KN as rogues in order to justify your sanction only further diminishes any respect I had for you guys. Be straightforward you are willing to use your sanction as a weapon as requested by your allies (GOONS being one of them) rather than this nuke rogue excuse if you want people respect you guys as more than a lulz alliance, which seems to be where you guys want to align yourselves.

[Ardus]

[quote name='Reptyler' timestamp='1285887039' post='2470286']
Numerous pretty words.
[/quote]
Remember all those times you asked me about how to establish a strong forum presence? Well, there ya go.

You are literally the nicest guy.

[AnCapistan]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1285894465' post='2470433']
We disagree on the rogue part and that you insist on classifying KN as rogues in order to justify your sanction only further diminishes any respect I had for you guys. Be straightforward you are willing to use your sanction as a weapon as requested by your allies (GOONS being one of them) rather than this nuke rogue excuse if you want people respect you guys as more than a lulz alliance, which seems to be where you guys want to align yourselves.
[/quote]

You have like two people and no protectorate. That's not an alliance.

And yes we do use our sanction as a weapon (kind of the point of having it).

[Haflinger]

I don't understand the OP. While the VE, like most alliances, has at times been hypocritical, there aren't any examples of that in the OP.

[Ejayrazz]

VE has been close to me since 06. I will not dispute your own opinion, what I will say is if you haven't noticed, a friend of mine is someone who can expect me to die for them. VE is a friend.

VE were victims of GGA.
VE went through a lot of !@#$%^&* with NPO (Behind closed doors, let's be real here)

No one is perfect and politics are a brutal thing, but as a friend, they've done nothing wrong to me -- not even once -- in nearly a 4 years' friend-to-friend history.

Edited October 1, 2010 by Ejayrazz

[Caliph]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1285877782' post='2470114']
[color="#0000FF"]While we're on the subject of VE, let us not forget that the alliance most necessary, without whose help they could not have reformed, was the New Polar Order. Yet despite that debt when the time came VE turns its back on them. While we all know they later betray the NPO, after the war they just forget all the values they once stood for and decide to be a tough guy alliance, and jump in bed with the likes of GOONS, et. al. And if rumors are correct, they'll soon be spitting on the face of electron sponge by celebrating in the name of GOONS and the UJP. Oh, how they have fallen. RIP VE, and my the monstrosity that currently pollutes your once revered name soon be put to rest.[/color]
[/quote]
We can look at VE's history and realize that VE came with the assistance of those who buried VE in the first place, and stayed allied with them until it became not convinient to do so, and you can make your opinion based on that.

I don't do that. My opinion of VE is based on direct encounters I've had with them over incidents. I'll not drag VE's name through the mud on the OWF, suffice to say I remain unimpressed with their actions.

That said, this thread is not the way to go about doing anything.

[quote name='Ejayrazz' timestamp='1285895551' post='2470464']
VE has been close to me since 06. I will not dispute your own opinion, what I will say is if you haven't noticed, a friend of mine is someone who can expect me to die for them. VE is a friend.

VE were victims of GGA.
VE went through a lot of !@#$%^&* with NPO (Behind closed doors, let's be real here)

No one is perfect and politics are a brutal thing, but as a friend, they've done nothing wrong to me -- not even once -- in nearly a 4 years' friend-to-friend history.
[/quote]
True, people and alliances change. You feel about VE how I feel about other alliances, like ROK and PC.

However I can state that while VE may not have wronged you, they have wronged us and others, so I'm sure you can see where I, and others, are coming from.

Edited October 1, 2010 by Caliph

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Mr Damsky' timestamp='1285894595' post='2470439']
You have like two people and no protectorate. That's not an alliance.

And yes we do use our sanction as a weapon (kind of the point of having it).
[/quote]
We have more than 2 people, but how many we have doesn't matter in regards to us being an alliance. If you don't care what my opinion is of you guys and those who support me, then by all means continue to support GOONS and go along with their strategy of stretching the meaning of the word rogue to fit whatever you want at the moment. If you guys want to drag your reputation down to that of GOONS because of your ODP with them and continue to support them by using your sanction as a weapon, then by all means go ahead and do what you want as long you have the power to do so.

Edited October 1, 2010 by Methrage

[The MVP]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1285894557' post='2470438']
Remember all those times you asked me about how to establish a strong forum presence? Well, there ya go.

You are literally the nicest guy.
[/quote]

Yes his mass message to all Vox members of that youtube clip proved that.

[Reptyler]

[quote name='The MVP' timestamp='1285896974' post='2470501']
Yes his mass message to all Vox members of that youtube clip proved that.
[/quote]
My message then was similar to my message now: lighten up a bit and quit hating on the world. Life's too short to spend it upset at everything. Granted, I was much less eloquent back then, and admin and I had a talk about penis jokes and how they don't belong in CyberNations, but in the end everything turned out okay.