The Viridian Entente

[The MVP]

[quote name='Reptyler' timestamp='1285898149' post='2470529']
My message then was similar to my message now: lighten up a bit and quit hating on the world. Life's too short to spend it upset at everything. Granted, I was much less eloquent back then, and admin and I had a talk about penis jokes and how they don't belong in CyberNations, but in the end everything turned out okay.
[/quote]

Doesn't mean we deserved those links. Glad you admit it was out of line though.

Edited October 1, 2010 by The MVP

[BlkAK47_002]

[quote name='ktarthan' timestamp='1285872668' post='2470004']
So you think members from GOONS, VE, Umb, NPO, iFOK, MK, NEW, TOP, GOD, Celestial Being and PC all got together in a collaborative effort to drown out your opinion?
[/quote]
Well.........Possibly

[Joseph Black]

I have nothing against VE. I do however; enjoy a good discussion of logic and reason. Taking on the points that The MVP has pointed out, it is quite possible that VE has been politically playing the field in their advantage. By using the treaty web to place themselves in profitable locations to allow for the least amount of damage and the most to gain, they have effectively jumped sides in each major war following their recreation. Much the same as the ODN, MHA, Sparta, or a whole host of others, every time the winds of change shift they begin to move pieces into place to allow for victory.

You can claim this was due to an internal mental shift, but the question then becomes what caused that change of mind. Yes people do grow over time, and our opinions change, but they change for a reason. I’ll call it for preservation purposes, it was in VE’s best interest to change Government, polices, and treaties to best suit their survival strategy. Had VE not jumped sides following their reformation they would not have lived long as at the time GGA would have “removed” them, had they not changed sides during the Unjust War, they would have followed the same fate as the 1st GOONS, \m/, or would have faced the disgrace that hit the TPF.

Now you can call it whatever you want, but their history shows they did change sides once again, by distancing themselves from Polar and allies during the No-CB war. By dropping treaties that would put them in unprofitable locations they effectively had another shift of opinion. During that war they played the part of the good bureaucrat and supported what was profitable for them. They did not have a huge political following at the time so it was better to follow than try and lead a flock. At this time the NPO also controlled a large portion of the world and could have just as easily removed the VE, had they sided with Polar.

Moving into the Karma war, VE’s internal opinions changed again, this time they wanted to side with Karma, knowing that attitudes were changing and that the world would find its self at war, they began to plot along with the rest of KARMA, NPO’s down fall. It was easy because at this point they had sided with NPO 3 times in the last war, so they had access to NPO’s thoughts and arguably their future actions. That would be a huge help in KARMA’s timing as they would need NPO to “mess” up before they could act, however KARMA had to have some idea of when the actions would take place, as it takes months to fully mobilize a coalition of alliances.

Again, I have nothing against VE, simply taking a side in a debate over hypocrisy. Was VE hypocritical in changing sides since their reformation? Yes, they claim to be strong allies, however their history shows that when things are unprofitable for them, their mindsets, and opinions tend to change to support the winning side of the conflict, outside of the war that lead to their disbandment, VE has had a history of self preservation even if that meant leaving allies behind. It can be spun any way you want to, growth, change of heart, change of opinion, but regardless something had to trigger that change, I stand firmly behind the idea that it changed so that every action was most profitable to VE’s own interest. Their history supports every claim I have made with exception to why their opinions changed when they did, that can only be speculated at this point.

[Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz]

[quote name='Reptyler' timestamp='1285887039' post='2470286']
snip for length
[/quote]
Thanks man, you're a true [i]mensch[/i].

[Cornelius]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1285877782' post='2470114']
[color="#0000FF"]While we're on the subject of VE, let us not forget that the alliance most necessary, without whose help they could not have reformed, was the New Polar Order. Yet despite that debt when the time came VE turns its back on them. While we all know they later betray the NPO, after the war they just forget all the values they once stood for and decide to be a tough guy alliance, and jump in bed with the likes of GOONS, et. al. And if rumors are correct, they'll soon be spitting on the face of electron sponge by celebrating in the name of GOONS and the UJP. Oh, how they have fallen. RIP VE, and my the monstrosity that currently pollutes your once revered name soon be put to rest.[/color]
[/quote]
[quote name='The MVP' timestamp='1285882371' post='2470207']I think turning your back outright on someone after they've helped you is treachery. VE's actions thus far have involved spitting in the face of all those that helped them and helping those that spat in their face.[/quote]
VE cancelled on NpO for one reason, and one reason alone: their declaration on FIST with little warning to us. There was no opportunism, the mass cancellations didn't start until after the Ardus-Sponge logs, which didn't occur until several days after we dropped the treaty with NpO. In fact, if you read the logs, Sponge specifically mentions the treaty cancellation. Dropping that treaty directly led to the relations between our alliances breaking down to the point that we though NpO was about to declare on us, until Sponge was couped. And despite all that we refused a chance to declare on NpO during the WotC that started, as said before, nearly two months after that incident, as we believed that Sponge stepping down was enough. And as I said before, we only fought in that war because of two MADPs we held.
[quote]@Cornelius - I may have misinterpreted the conversation. Though I have to ask what's ZIPP other than a joke that didn't spare anyone?
[/quote]
It's a statement of [i]our[/i] policy, not anyone else's. And it's an invitation for others to sign onto that policy, not a mandate. We caught flak from some of our allies at the time for it, and even today not every one of our allies is a signatory. Just because we hold ourselves to that standard doesn't mean we try to lord it over everyone else.
[quote name='The MVP' timestamp='1285882859' post='2470212']
Yet you knew Polaris head would soon be on the chopping block. As you called it, it is [i]opportunistic[/i]. You got out of a treaty that would have landed you in a bad situation. Besides that's not the incident I was referring to and I wasn't even talking about you.[/quote]
No, we didn't know NpO was on the chopping block. All we knew when the treaty was cancelled was that NpO was being kicked out of 1V. As I said before, if you check the dates, the mass cancellations didn't start until days after we dropped our treaty and 1V kicked NpO out.
[quote]My point is at one point you were thought to be the [i]antithysis[/i] (sp?) of GOONS and now are allied to them and support their actions. VE historically, it appears, doesn't stand for much other than siding with the part that has the most alliances.

And isn't it just the most opportunistic thing that GOONS now are in a position of power and when you opposed them they were on their way to defeat?
[/quote]
When VE died, it was treatyless and independent. When it came back, it had ties with alliances that had helped destroy it (or we wouldn't have been able to come back). VE also allowed tech raiding for a time, and continued to do so until a lengthy and divisive debate eventually led to us repealing it. Personally I never supported tech raiding, and couldn't bring myself to actively take part, but that wasn't the opinion of every Viridian. Yes, you had the standard moralist arguments, but ultimately what decided the debate was that we felt it simply wasn't worth it.

And GOONS had to work for months to convince us that they were truly different than their predecessors. I was among the skeptics. The old GOONS never would've gone to the lengths that the new ones have, especially diplomatically. If not for their sticking with the old acronym, they would be treated like any other tech raiding alliance. That was actually one of my questions, why they chose to take on that stigma.

As for opportunism, when we joined the UJW the outcome was still in doubt. And if their rise now was the only good point in their favor, we would not have signed any treaty with them.

[Sandwich Controversy]

[quote name='Cornelius' timestamp='1285901851' post='2470614']
As for opportunism, when we joined the UJW the outcome was still in doubt. And if their rise now was the only good point in their favor, we would not have signed any treaty with them.
[/quote]
This is not true at all, you entered the day after TPF surrendered.

[Caliph]

[quote name='Cornelius' timestamp='1285901851' post='2470614']

As for opportunism, when we joined the UJW the outcome was still in doubt. And if their rise now was the only good point in their favor, we would not have signed any treaty with them.
[/quote]
This is a lie, the war was firmly in the hands of the ~ coalition by the time VE re formed and enterred.

[Ardus]

[quote name='Sandwich Controversy' timestamp='1285902652' post='2470633']
This is not true at all, you entered the day after TPF surrendered.
[/quote]
VE declared the night TPF surrendered, shortly before TPF exited. It was actually pretty frustrating.

[Free Quebec]

This thread is silly. Anybody with evolving foreign policy is hypocrite by logic here.

Edited October 1, 2010 by Free Quebec

[Viridia]

You guys... VE is hegemonic garbage. They're hypocritical, self-righteous !@#$%^&* who pretend to be honourable and moralistic. Theres nothing good about the Entente. They don't support any of their allies, and have historically stabbed their friends in the backs. They destabilized green, they made Sponge turn into a !@#$% insane nutcase with their meritable propaganda, they forced NPO to commit political suicide, and they are trying to force their presence through the reformed Unjust Highway through immoral standards.

The Viridian Entente is a horrible representation of what an alliance should be, and I am disgusted by such a disgusting history.


edit: and they are imperial !@#$%^&*

Edited October 1, 2010 by Viridia

[Kevanovia]

I do remember that VE were one of the head-figures in the anti-raiding movement (or perhaps it was anti-ZI). I can see your point MVP, however I still support VE when the day is done. However, I will never have that support for GOONS.

Edited October 1, 2010 by Kevanovia

[Cornelius]

[quote name='Muddog' timestamp='1285900714' post='2470585']<snip>
[/quote]
Just cutting out the text so this doesn't get too long. You claim that the VE has changed sides for every war since the UJW? First, how can the VE have changed sides during the UJW? We reformed and immediately picked ~, we were not tied to the Unjust Highway in any way. Even if you look to when we disbanded we weren't tied then to anybody, part of the reason we were killed. Second, the WotC, even before we cancelled on NpO we only had two treaties with BLEU, NpO and NV. And I guarantee you that if NpO had not DoWed FIST, we'd have stood with NpO or stayed neutral, not sided otherwise. We considered them our most important ally at the time due to their support in our reformation, but we couldn't let the war against FIST stand because it would've meant that our FA would have been at the NpO's whim from then on (and we downgraded FIST for their part too). To this point you're only talking about one cancelled treaty, one that we still feel we had more than enough cause to drop.

Karma was the first war you could accuse us of switching sides. And even then, any impending war was no reason for our cancellations. Ever since our disbandment, our membership had been skeptical of the alliances involved, but most especially GGA, GOONS, and NPO. When NpO helped bring us back, we decided to accept their allies as well, which included GGA and NPO (despite the unease that was ever present). After FIST led to us breaking ties with NpO, and everything that came out about NPO undermining NpO, things only got worse. Relations with GGA really spiraled off in the aftermath of my Protected Nation thread, where it seemed that GGA was falling apart at the seams. We couldn't see a way to distance ourselves from 1V without possibly getting killed. Plus I was reluctant to drop our one supposedly strong tie to the bloc, IRON. Unfortunately, or fortunately depending on how you look at it, IRON decided to cancel on us. Things had gotten so bad that it was enough for us to want to drop all ties to 1V, as evidenced by the fact that the next day we announced the cancellations. Part of it was that we felt that IRON's reasons for cancelling were so anal that the other treaties really didn't stand for anything anymore. So yes, you can say we switched sides there. I guess we had decided that the time to live in fear was over. We stopped looking out to not die, and started trying to be ourselves again. We could breathe more easily.
[quote name='Sandwich Controversy' timestamp='1285902652' post='2470633']
This is not true at all, you entered the day after TPF surrendered.
[/quote]
[quote name='Caliph' timestamp='1285902839' post='2470634']
This is a lie, the war was firmly in the hands of the ~ coalition by the time VE re formed and enterred.
[/quote]
It seems that VE entering and TPF surrendering occurred the same day, with VE's announcement actually taking place almost an hour before TPF's:
http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=2277
http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=2289

[Caliph]

[quote name='Cornelius' timestamp='1285904028' post='2470655']

It seems that VE entering and TPF surrendering occurred the same day, with VE's announcement actually taking place almost an hour before TPF's:
http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=2277
http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=2289
[/quote]
That does not change what I said. VE enterred when the UJW was firmly in the hands of the ~. You enterred after that "incident" that is not to be named, VE formed and VE enterred the war against part of those who buried them but came back and allied those who were the driving force in burying them.

At that time the war was not looking good for the Unjust Highway, and ~ was bringing in more alliances daily. So you can just save that lie for those who will believe it.

You did what you did, own up to it, don't lie about it.

[Ardus]

[quote name='Caliph' timestamp='1285904740' post='2470671']
That does not change what I said. VE enterred when the UJW was firmly in the hands of the ~. You enterred after that "incident" that is not to be named, VE formed and VE enterred the war against part of those who buried them but came back and allied those who were the driving force in burying them.

At that time the war was not looking good for the Unjust Highway, and ~ was bringing in more alliances daily. So you can just save that lie for those who will believe it.

You did what you did, own up to it, don't lie about it.
[/quote]
When crap is at war with crap and you have to pick a side, you're going to be covered in excrement.

[Cornelius]

[quote name='Caliph' timestamp='1285904740' post='2470671']
That does not change what I said. VE enterred when the UJW was firmly in the hands of the ~. You enterred after that "incident" that is not to be named, VE formed and VE enterred the war against part of those who buried them but came back and allied those who were the driving force in burying them.

At that time the war was not looking good for the Unjust Highway, and ~ was bringing in more alliances daily. So you can just save that lie for those who will believe it.

You did what you did, own up to it, don't lie about it.
[/quote]
Our friends in the UJP, namely GOD, assured us that they were on the verge of bringing in other alliances on the side of the UJP before TPF's surrender. And the VE's return had been leaked before the incident that is not to be named, as you put it. GOONS even tried to issue an apology to sway us, though they admitted afterward it was simply for PR and insincere. The war was not in hand when the VE decided on its course, though maybe it was by the time we were able to act.

[DictatatorDan]

[color="#FF0000"]The facts are pretty cut and dry. VE betrayed NpO.[/color]

[Cornelius]

[quote name='DictatatorDan' timestamp='1285905106' post='2470679']
[color="#FF0000"]The facts are pretty cut and dry. VE betrayed NpO.[/color]
[/quote]
I'm going to just assume that's sarcasm.

[Caliph]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1285905009' post='2470677']
When crap is at war with crap and you have to pick a side, you're going to be covered in excrement.
[/quote]
True.

[quote name='Cornelius' timestamp='1285905059' post='2470678']
Our friends in the UJP, namely GOD, assured us that they were on the verge of bringing in other alliances on the side of the UJP before TPF's surrender. And the VE's return had been leaked before the incident that is not to be named, as you put it. GOONS even tried to issue an apology to sway us, though they admitted afterward it was simply for PR and insincere. The war was not in hand when the VE decided on its course, though maybe it was by the time we were able to act.
[/quote]
We'll just have to disagree on that. The war was firmly in the hands of the ~ side, but I can agree to disagree on this as this is not the topic for this thread.

[Lord Caspian]

I kind of have to laugh at everyone commenting on how we've supposedly jumped into bed with the new GOONS. Believe me, it took a lot consideration, a long, long time, from gov to the general membership, before the whole alliance was convinced that what we found in the new GOONS was something wholly different from the old GOONS.

[Il Impero Romano]

Why the hell does every time someone makes a negative thread involving us it somehow ends up on the Polar shenanigans.

Also, Viridia has and will continue to be consistent with our attitude and ideology. Those of you who say we were at the forefront of the anti tech raiding movement, guess what? We [i]allowed [/i]tech raiding for quite a while. We allowed tech raiding at the time of our reformation [i]when [/i]we declared on GOONS. We have [i]always [/i]had more allies that tech raid then those that do not as well. Surprising right? Not really. What you perceive as opposing tech raiding or being moralistic is actually just us formulating opinions based upon reason, and that facet of our culture will never change. When someone does something ridiculous, we have a problem with it. If a practice is objectively unreasonable, we have a problem with it. If the incidents everyone is crying about are just normal day to day alliance operations, then you will see the type of response that you have from us here.

Now, loud segments of this community apparently have changed their definition of what's right on wrong based on how it politically suits them. You may come here on the owf and scream about the travisty of responding to rogues when they attack someones alliance all you want, or fervantly decry the great evil that is making sure people don't aid nuclear rogues, but please don't act like we ever stood in line with ridiculous notions such as that.

For those who look at the little time line and cry hypocrisy on its face, I hope you understand we canceled on NPO around a month prior to Karma, before OV was even a twinkle in their eye, was the first major alliance to do so, and over something completely unrelated (something them or IRON probably will have no problem acknowledging). There was no "side change", there was an unrelated problem, a big one, it almost blew up and treaties ended up getting canceled over it. I hate to burst your bubble, but thats not "switching sides" by any stretch of the imagination, that's an international incident that was well known and soured relations. The wotc stuff I cannot speak to, as I was but a mere battalion lieutenant at the time, but if you want to make claims of hypocrisy over one thing that happened years ago, well I don't know what to tell you aside from "grow up" and act like a big kid.

In short, aside from the slight and normal, you simply cannot point to any real shifts in our identity without risking ridiculously harping on the NpO fiasco from over 2 years ago.

Edited October 1, 2010 by Il Impero Romano

[Smooth]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1285890596' post='2470348']
[color="#0000FF"]
And Chickenzilla, there really was no proof other than speculation, and it was the resignations forum of all things. Please, I do not buy your whole NpO was a terrible ally. You needed a reason to cancel on them because you knew they were going to get rolled soon. That's all there is to it.[/color]
[/quote]

Actually, there was a lot of proof. 1) Chickenzilla's account being accessed by multiple different IPs that day. 2) Information we received from Pacifica. 3) Ask Chickenzilla if he did it. 20 bucks says he says "yes."


At least you got that last part right. You're always so good at knowing other people's motives from way over there.

[quote=Caliph]That does not change what I said. VE enterred when the UJW was firmly in the hands of the ~. You enterred after that "incident" that is not to be named, VE formed and VE enterred the war against part of those who buried them but came back and allied those who were the driving force in burying them.[/quote]

Yeah, because we could have entered that war [i]without[/i] being on the side of someone who killed us.

Also, GOONs was a huge driving force behind destroying us. Never really liked VE when we were Initiative together.

Edited October 1, 2010 by Smooth

[Joseph Black]

[quote name='Cornelius' timestamp='1285904028' post='2470655']
<snip>
[/quote]

Like I said, I have nothing against VE, nor do I have any personal knowledge about anything related to VE. I'll conseed my argument of the UJW as there is not much information available to me on your previous incarnation's FA. Wiki is a huge help in terms of my knowledge base, your history shows you are a politically self serving alliance.

Why would you cancel on NpO the alliance who by your own admission you considered your closest ally and that you owed your return to? At that point you sided with NPO and Co. who at the time you had a large amount of treaties with. Over the course of that war and moving into the pre-Karma movement you were a full supporter of that institution of alliances, taking part in the GPAwar, and many of the other "curb stomps" that took place at NPO's hands. It was not until the winds of change began blowing that you started moving to politically side yourselves with KARMA. No doubt using your connections within the NPO camp to fuel information into KARMA. Which places you as a two-face alliance, you were perfectly capable of removing yourselves from the "Hegemony" during any one of the atrocities committed by the NPO, however you acted in each and ever one. Your hands were just as bloody as the NPO's going into KARMA and yet you escaped justice by switching sides. Your just as guilty and deserving of punishment as the NPO during KARMA, while the community at large seems to have forgotten your crimes, at least at the time being.

So is your alliance Hypocritical? Yes, there is no amount of spin you can give that will make that go away. Your alliances crimes are painted on every page the Pax Pacifica ear, and yet during KARMA you still escaped justice for those crimes.

Edit-

You even went so far as to fight against the very crimes you, yourselves commuted.

Edited October 1, 2010 by Muddog

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='Muddog' timestamp='1285908896' post='2470761']
Like I said, I have nothing against VE, [b]nor do I have any personal knowledge about anything related to VE[/b].

Why would you cancel on NpO the alliance who by your own admission you considered your closest ally and that you owed your return to? At that point you sided with NPO and Co. who at the time you had a large amount of treaties with. Over the course of that war and moving into the pre-Karma movement you were a full supporter of that institution of alliances, taking part in the GPAwar, and many of the other "curb stomps" that took place at NPO's hands. It was not until the winds of change began blowing that you started moving to politically side yourselves with KARMA. No doubt using your connections within the NPO camp to fuel information into KARMA. Which places you as a two-face alliance, you were perfectly capable of removing yourselves from the "Hegemony" during any one of the atrocities committed by the NPO, however you acted in each and ever one. Your hands were just as bloody as the NPO's going into KARMA and yet you escaped justice by switching sides. Your just as guilty and deserving of punishment as the NPO during KARMA, while the community at large seems to have forgotten your crimes, at least at the time being.

So is your alliance Hypocritical? Yes, there is no amount of spin you can give that will make that go away. Your alliances crimes are painted on every page the Pax Pacifica ear, and yet during KARMA you still escaped justice for those crimes.
[/quote]

Excuse me?

The bolded is evidant.

Things you are wrong about: We did not take part in the GPA war. Our treaties with GOD (our longest standing ally), Rok, RIA, and other all existed [i]far [/i]before the Karma war. We never funneled any information, and never, ever were accused of such. We did not act in "each and every one" of NPO's curbstomps, we acted in the Wolf Pack war, and thats one, as in singular. We canceled on NPO over a month prior to things that had nothing to do with karma, please read my last post for more details.

I mean really, where did you even get this stuff from?

That's pretty much your whole post. As you noted, you have no idea what your talking about, so why did you even bother writing it down?

Edited October 1, 2010 by Il Impero Romano

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='Muddog' timestamp='1285908896' post='2470761']
Why would you cancel on NpO the alliance who by your own admission you considered your closest ally and that you owed your return to?
[/quote]

I wasn't even here for that and I know the answer.

They attacked our treaty partner with no real notice, if one of your allies attacks one of your other allies, is that going to make you happy or upset?

Also, what Impero said.

[jeff barr]

[quote name='Kroknia' timestamp='1285858086' post='2469752']
I haven't seen emulation. Old GOONS tried to rule Black. Old GOONS Attacked people for speaking out against them in forums. These GOONS don't. They will tell you to do something about it if you don't like what they're doing, but they clearly aren't going out of their way to antagonize people. [/quote]

....[i]what?[/i]

2007: "Wtf guys, why are you doing that?"

"lol who cares, bawwwwww. Do something about it"

*something is done*

"Queue half a dozen of the strongest alliances on Bob rolling those who did something about it"

2010: "Wtf guys, why are you doing that?"

"lol who cares, bawwwwww. Do something about it"

*something is done*

"Queue half a dozen of the strongest alliances on Bob rolling those who did something about it"

Welp, you're right. No antagonising or comparisons here whatsoever.

Edited October 1, 2010 by jeff barr