Order versus Anarchy

[Bavaricar]

[quote name='ktarthan' timestamp='1284759037' post='2456780']
"I just bought a transit pass. I now have freedom of transportation."
"I purchased a drink from a vending machine. I have freedom from thirst."
"I paid rent on an appartment for next month. I have freedom from the rain."

And so on, and so forth. None of these things actually provide me with any significant freedom, despite what the english language allows me to construct.
[/quote]

Your examples actually are good illustrations of some of the most significant freedoms necessary for the pursuit of the so-called "higher" freedoms.

If i have no transportation, how can I get to my job to earn a living to pay my bills. How can I get to my doctor who does not make house calls. How can I get to the plaza to pass out my campaign brochures and give my speech?

If I have no means of obtaining water or nourishment, the only freedom I will enjoy is that of dying from dehydration or starvation.

If I do not have the means of providing myself with shelter, it will be quite hard to focus on any of those "higher" unnamed freedoms you find to find to be more significant.

Of course, nothing you say is ever meant to be taken at face value, so I don't even know why I chose to reply to your words.

Edited September 18, 2010 by Bavaricar

[Grumpdogg]

Why were we not informed sooner that Vladimir had begat a son? We would've celebrated the birth of this young Unko Kalaikz with much fanfare!

Huzzah!
Huzzah!

o/ Youth
o/ Freedom
o/ Francoism!

Edited September 18, 2010 by Grumpdogg

[Kzoppistan]

[quote name='snibbmaster' timestamp='1284762280' post='2456815']
You'll change your tune very quick I think, when you discover that he views [u][i]you[/i][/u] as a scattered, anarchy-wracked mass as well.
[/quote]

Discover it? I dare say, good sir, I already expect it.

At least a philosophical stance, no matter how riddled with double-think stacked upon a shaky dubious foundation, that promotes some sort of ambition is a refresh change from the limp milquetoast 'live and let live' crap that most groups of cowards embrace.

[Bavaricar]

[quote name='Kzoppistan' timestamp='1284785052' post='2457032']
Discover it? I dare say, good sir, I already expect it.

At least a philosophical stance, no matter how riddled with double-think stacked upon a shaky dubious foundation, that promotes some sort of ambition is a refresh change from the limp milquetoast 'live and let live' crap that most groups of cowards embrace.
[/quote]

As much as I am tired of flipping the same old [i]anarchy or order[/i] coin, well said and I agree.

[snibbmaster]

[quote name='Kzoppistan' timestamp='1284785052' post='2457032']
Discover it? I dare say, good sir, I already expect it.

At least a philosophical stance, no matter how riddled with double-think stacked upon a shaky dubious foundation, that promotes some sort of ambition is a refresh change from the limp milquetoast 'live and let live' crap that most groups of cowards embrace.
[/quote]


Im glad to hear we are in agreement then.

[snibbmaster]

[quote name='silentkiller' timestamp='1284779832' post='2456977']

Comrade BlkAK47_002's words were however slightly inaccurate.
[/quote]


well at least we are in agreement here.

Edited September 18, 2010 by snibbmaster

[BlkAK47_002]

[quote name='snibbmaster' timestamp='1284775868' post='2456952']
Oh I see, because total freedom of speech is considered being a mindless puppet, and being enslaved to your dictator means you have a mind of your own? Wow, your logic is messed up.
[/quote]
I haven't been given a single order or had my speech along with any other right restricted since I joined the Order so I will conclude that you have no idea what the hell you are talking about.

Wait..... There was that one time my overlords encouraged me to request aid. How very masterful of them!

[snibbmaster]

[quote name='BlkAK47_002' timestamp='1284825534' post='2457230']
at you have no idea what the hell you are talking about.
[/quote]
[font=arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif][size=2]
[/size][/font][font=arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif][size=2]I would say the same thing of you. What ODN puppet would you be referring to? I'd watch out, Hypocrisy is not becoming of you.[/size][/font]

Edited September 18, 2010 by snibbmaster

[BlkAK47_002]

[quote name='snibbmaster' timestamp='1284828081' post='2457244']
[font=arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif][size=2]
[/size][/font][font=arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif][size=2]I would say the same thing of you. What ODN puppet would you be referring to? I'd watch out, Hypocrisy is not becoming of you.[/size][/font]
[/quote]
Then I guess it would be a two way street then wouldn't it?

[snibbmaster]

[quote name='BlkAK47_002' timestamp='1284829446' post='2457258']
Then I guess it would be a two way street then wouldn't it?
[/quote]

I'm not quite sure what hypocrisy your accusing me of, so not exactly.

[Delta1212]

You know, I'm just going to quote myself because it seems rather apropos to the topic.

[quote name='Delta1212' timestamp='1232419900' post='1201567']
You obviously haven't read your Vladimir. You seem to have some misconceptions about what freedom means. I'll give you a hint, it rhymes with bravery.
[/quote]

Though, of course, in this particular case, the OP actually has read his Vladimir.

[White Chocolate]

[quote name='Unko Kalaikz' timestamp='1284668476' post='2455969']
Was the Order always right? Hardly, none, not one, ever is. But perhaps in this age of uncertainty we can look back with hope that times will be ordered again, and that reason will prevail over the lulz and abominable lusts that shape our chaotic world today.
-- Unko Kalaikz
[/quote]

In what way(s) was "the Order," in your opinion NOT "always right"? You did fight them while a part of Vox, but now you say that at least in some fashion, you were wrong:
[quote name='Unko Kalaikz' timestamp='1284668476' post='2455969']
Projecting the Order as the enemy, when in reality, I was indeed my own worst enemy.
[/quote]

So where you right about anything? And was NPO wrong? If so, how? And what has changed inside "the Order" from before? What was learned from those mistakes?

You now say
[quote name='Unko Kalaikz' timestamp='1284668476' post='2455969']
And yet, to the surprise of all, we witness a dim but glowing lamp of hope. The Order and other alliances like it is growing at an unprecedented rate; the Anarchists do not understand and gnash their teeth in frenzied hate; but they are blind, unlike the peoples of peace, the keepers of Order, the agents of civilization and decency and respect and all worthy things, the light of Francoism, the keepers of the flame of freedom and Franco's star, angels of hope and charity in today's darkened world.
[/quote]

I've been around and paying attention to politics for 816 days now, and observed some of the culture when NPO dominated the world. Frankly, there were some things I liked and others I did not and I'd say the same thing now of the current culture. In addition I've made friends who experienced what I can only (nicely) describe in public as incredible persecution from the NPO before I arrived. From what they tell me, I'm amazed NPO remained in control for as long as the alliance did.

Here is my big question - what does all that talk about "lamp of hope" and "the agents of civilization and decency and respect and all worthy things" mean in terms of specific policies? If the New Pacific Order ruled the world again, what would that look like?

Edited September 18, 2010 by White Chocolate

[Tautology]

[quote name='BlkAK47_002' timestamp='1284825534' post='2457230']
I haven't been given a single order or had my speech along with any other right restricted since I joined the Order so I will conclude that you have no idea what the hell you are talking about.[/quote]
You've learned your lesson well.

[Unko Kalaikz]

[quote name='White Chocolate' timestamp='1284849180' post='2457522']
So where you right about anything? And was NPO wrong? If so, how? And what has changed inside "the Order" from before? What was learned from those mistakes?[/quote]

I was right when I forsaw the way the Hegemony would fall, and NPO was wrong for revealing weakness. It neglected soft power. If you are a student of an ancient sage reverred in my kingdom (ooc: Sun Tzu) you would understand.

[quote]Here is my big question - what does all that talk about "lamp of hope" and "the agents of civilization and decency and respect and all worthy things" mean in terms of specific policies? If the New Pacific Order ruled the world again, what would that look like?
[/quote]

I would not say they ever ran the world; they were simply in a position to eliminate most hostile threats to their security, because the various threats were inept. MK was one of the few that watched waited and grew, which is to be expected with the former Order officers there. The Order's mission as stated by Francoism is not global governance, but simply to survive and thrive. But the benefits are enormous, and unlike the officers of some lesser alliances whose petty motives are revenge or "karma," our philosophy demands rational thought and action.

We have essentially departed from an age of reason to an age of savagery.

Edited September 21, 2010 by Unko Kalaikz

[Unko Kalaikz]

[quote name='Sal Paradise' timestamp='1284766283' post='2456851']
Indeed. In this world, slavery is entirely self-inflicted. They can take your allies and your infrastructure. They can sanction you on every team and pressure others to keep you out of alliances. But you are free so long as you defy. Those that seek the comfort and certainty of totalitarian ideologies will never understand. They don't truly want, nor could they handle freedom. They're masochists and delight in their own persecution.[/quote]

Can you describe this evil oppressive slavery I have chosen for myself? And the "freedom" that I have [i]freely[/i] traded for "masochism?"

I have to admit I get a laugh from the histrionics

[quote]"The state of nature" is a meaningless academic term used to describe something that has never existed. It is at best a misnomer. Even the people who invented the term were likely well aware that it was merely a thought experiment. Our natural state is social. Not the barbarous anarchy of every man for himself you've regurgitated from Vladimir.
[/quote]

If the state of nature does not exist, then why is there conflict? Give me your rose colored shades comrade what a pleasant world you live in

[White Chocolate]

[quote name='Unko Kalaikz' timestamp='1285032751' post='2459494']
I was right when I forsaw the way the Hegemony would fall, and NPO was wrong for revealing weakness. It neglected soft power. If you are a student of an ancient sage reverred in my kingdom (ooc: Sun Tzu) you would understand.
[/quote]

I am familiar with both your ancient sage and the importance of soft power.


[quote name='Unko Kalaikz' timestamp='1285032751' post='2459494']
I would not say they ever ran the world; they were simply in a position to eliminate most hostile threats to their security, because the various threats were inept. MK was one of the few that watched waited and grew, which is to be expected with the former Order officers there. The Order's mission as stated by Francoism is not global governance, but simply to survive and thrive. But the benefits are enormous, and unlike the officers of some lesser alliances whose petty motives are revenge or "karma," our philosophy demands rational thought and action.
[/quote]

In other words, assuming NPO is again "in the position to eliminate most hostile threats to their security", they will return to their previous tactics - those tactics being "rational" of course Yes?

Assuming NPO has learned a lesson regarding "soft power", how will this affect their way of dealing with the rest of the world while at the same time protecting their own security?

[Biazt]

Ktarthan, I tip my hat off to you. The mental gymnastics the OP took part in to somehow make this seem logical in the least is amazing and I commend you for trying to sort it out.

[Unko Kalaikz]

[quote name='White Chocolate' timestamp='1285075467' post='2459918']In other words, assuming NPO is again "in the position to eliminate most hostile threats to their security", they will return to their previous tactics - those tactics being "rational" of course Yes?

Assuming NPO has learned a lesson regarding "soft power", how will this affect their way of dealing with the rest of the world while at the same time protecting their own security?
[/quote]

I don't think so. The previous tactics didn't work in the long run did they? I believe a New Order, should it happen, would be wiser and perceived as more benevolent, while at the same time providing light and order to the world.

Edited September 22, 2010 by Unko Kalaikz

[wickedj]

[quote name='Unko Kalaikz' timestamp='1285121009' post='2460495']
I don't think so. The previous tactics didn't work in the long run did they? I believe a New Order, should it happen, would be wiser and perceived as more benevolent, while at the same time providing light and order to the world.
[/quote]
said previous tactics are still in use and look no further than the attacks on unaligned nations for using a FLAG..that they likely chose at random because blue and black are quite popular colors

'nuf said

[Vladimir]

[quote name='wickedj' timestamp='1285127206' post='2460588']
said previous tactics are still in use and look no further than the attacks on unaligned nations for using a FLAG..that they likely chose at random because blue and black are quite popular colors

'nuf said
[/quote]
You misrepresent the issue. Nations aren't just attacked out of the blue; they are sent numerous messages and only after conscious and informed refusal to remove our colours over a period of weeks are things escalated. It also has absolutely nothing to do with what Comrade Unko Kalaikz is discussing.

[Unko Kalaikz]

[quote name='wickedj' timestamp='1285127206' post='2460588']
said previous tactics are still in use and look no further than the attacks on unaligned nations for using a FLAG..that they likely chose at random because blue and black are quite popular colors

'nuf said
[/quote]

Amusing that we are evil for defending our sovereignty and flag, but it's alright for you to go ahead and attack same nonaligned nation to steal its tech.

We don't even surprise attack outright -- we send requests to cease and explanations of our policies. Attacking is really our last resort for dealing with any nation but it's never off the table. It's ok to enforce our AA sovereignty and not our flag? Preposterous.

[quote name='Vladimir' timestamp='1285127919' post='2460597']
You misrepresent the issue. Nations aren't just attacked out of the blue; they are sent numerous messages and only after conscious and informed refusal to remove our colours over a period of weeks are things escalated. It also has absolutely nothing to do with what Comrade Unko Kalaikz is discussing.
[/quote]

I guess they are just desperate to find something to hate us for.

Edited September 22, 2010 by Unko Kalaikz

[King Vladimir VIII]

As a relatively new resident of Planet Bob, I don’t hold a lot of clout and certainly can’t claim to be well-versed in Pacifician history or Franconian ideology. With that careful disclaimer, I’d like to weigh in on the matter.

I have a lot of respect for Pacifica and for Francoism in general. It has done wonders for them in achieving the goal they aspire towards… growth. The offensive implication of the theory, though, is that growth is the ultimate goal sought by every nation and the highest good attainable on Bob. The assertion that this is our greater purpose on Bob is in my eyes unsubstantiated. In fact, evidence seems to point away from this claim.

There are plenty of nations who flock to Bob not to harvest infrastructure or increase strength but to enjoy the thrill of international battle. An alliance like GOONS prides themselves on their passion for warfare and seems brutally effective in enjoying this aspect of life on Bob. I certainly find my political leanings much more in line with Pacifica, but allow me to play devil’s advocate for the moment.

Most citizens today complain about the lack of conflict on Planet Bob. They ache for war, but after investing so much into their own growth they are too petrified to initiate a conflict for fear of losing their accumulated strength. In this manner, one could argue that it is growth that is hampering the freedom of a nation to fulfill its desire for conflict and excitement. While peace is a noble aim, our Bob has always favored a more dynamic state of conflict.

[Ogaden]

[quote name='Unko Kalaikz' timestamp='1285128003' post='2460599']
I guess they are just desperate to find something to hate us for.
[/quote]

If you listen to the accounts people have about their dealings with NPO, those who hate you often have pretty damn good reasons to.

[Unko Kalaikz]

[quote name='James Dahl' timestamp='1285263172' post='2462282']
If you listen to the accounts people have about their dealings with NPO, those who hate you often have pretty damn good reasons to.
[/quote]
Yeah, I was one of those accounts. Remember my alliance was squashed and I was EZI'd. The difference is I got up, brushed the dirt off my tee, and learned from my mistakes.

[wickedj]

[quote name='Unko Kalaikz' timestamp='1285270211' post='2462381']
Yeah, I was one of those accounts. Remember my alliance was squashed and I was EZI'd. The difference is I got up, brushed the dirt off my tee, and learned from my mistakes.
[/quote]
And what mistake did you make to warrant EZI and in hindsight do you still feel such punishment was warranted

[quote]Amusing that we are evil for defending our sovereignty and flag, but it's alright for you to go ahead and attack same nonaligned nation to steal its tech. [/quote]
Your [i]sovereignty and flag[/i]? Do tell how wearing your flag is such a crime

Edited September 23, 2010 by wickedj