An offical announcement from the Legion

[FreeMason]

For the record, I've actually had people say that to me. Usually after wars, from people who actually fought with us, as opposed to people relying on old stereotypes to make their judgements on our ability to fight. I've personally been told things along the lines of "I didn't expect as much of a fight from a Legionnaire. If you weren't a lapdog, I might have some respect". Not exact words, mind you. Sadly, the in-game inbox deletes messages after a period of time.

[FreeMason]

[quote name='Lincongrad' timestamp='1284341894' post='2451843']
Very true. And those people, frankly, can shove it. I like the Legion community far too much.
[/quote]
My response as well Linc. Sad you beat me to it

EDIT: Dammit double post. Oh well, too late to change now...

Edited September 13, 2010 by FreeMason

[SirWilliam]

[quote name='Lincongrad' timestamp='1284339535' post='2451804']
I'm a little late to the party, I know. Sorry, I've been [OOC]camping[/OOC].

I'd like to address the Pez parts of this argument, as pointless as I think they are.

As the only current member of the Legion who was in government during the disbandment, I think I am pretty qualified to make a statement about Pez.
Pezstar was a pretty damn good Foreign Minister. She screwed up in the disbandment.
Now, where myself and several of the posters in this thread disagree (Note I did not say Legionnaires, since they are by no means all Legionnaires) is on whether Pez is, in general, a bad leader. I think she's excellent. I have nothing but the utmost respect for STA and their foreign policy of late, and I know she is a big factor in that.
I think many Legionnaires and others make judgments on Pez and her leadership based off one incident, and then assume that anything remotely bad that they hear about her should be interpreted in an extremely negative way. The same way, in fact, that people judge the Legion.

In this, I think I have failed in my duties to educate Legionnaires as to the events leading up to and surrounding Purplegate. The disbandment was simply one wrong decision taken under intense pressure. It should not reflect on Pez's actions in general.

<3 Lincongrad
[/quote]

Admirable stance, and well said (including the part about judging Legion).

[Matthew Conrad]

[quote name='Lincongrad' timestamp='1284341398' post='2451836']
What makes you say we can't fight? We've done, if not the best, certainly decently in the last few wars. I'm also curious to know which aspect of not being able to fight you're claiming: our NS? Our ANS? Our nukes? Our staying power? Our knowledge of game mechanics?

We tried staying out of the spotlight: it pretty clearly doesn't work. We're trying a new approach where we're going to attempt to have at least some communication, however negative, with our detractors.

I, personally, cared deeply about the WAE contest. It was shocking to me how undereducated regarding the Legion's past and present most people are, although of course the result was somewhat expected due to the side of the web we fall on. In a contest as predictable as the WAE contest, how could we help but do a little giggling?

So, here it is. Feel free to ask anything you want about the Legion, or inform us why we suck. We'll do our best to refute your points, agree with them, or agree to disagree. You'll probably get several varied answers and opinions on each question, but that's in the nature of the alliance.
[/quote]

Why limit it to just one? They're all rather pathetic given how many members you have and how long you've been around. Everything starts with activity and mechanics knowledge, great places to start focusing on. It's not even what "side" of the treaty web you are on since UPN are also being lambasted for their incompetency and they certainly aren't on your side anymore. Anyways, it has been listed countless times in great detail on our forums, feel free to read up for yourself.

You stay out of the spotlight by not responding in ridiculously dumb manners such as this announcement. You're fanning the fire yourselves, and this complete lack of sense is why things are the way they are for you.

Edited September 13, 2010 by Matthew Conrad

[Lincongrad]

When was the last time you saw an announcement remotely like this from a Legionnaire? I say again, we've tried saying out of the spotlight.

Virtually every time we've fought, since GWIII, we've got people grudgingly admitting that we don't deserve the Paper Tiger label. Our low ANS, low Total strength, etc, are a reflection of how many wars we've been in, mostly on the losing side. Now of course this doesn't mean we're not actively working to improve, but it also doesn't mean we're the same alliance that we were in GWIII.

Copy+paste some of em.

[jeff barr]

bahahahhaa, #waegion is epic. Legion, you sleigh me.

[justavictim82]

[quote name='Ryuzaki' timestamp='1284184400' post='2449587']
I certainly don't hate the Legion. You won me 1900 tech.
[/quote]

You are Welcome!

[quote name='maicke' timestamp='1284217904' post='2449834']
And the best part is, I gained 800 tech because of it!

It's nice to see the Legion is so butthurt over winning that they need to make a thread to prove they 'don't care'.
[/quote]

Glad we could be of help!

We dont 'need' to do anything. We wanted to.

Edited September 13, 2010 by justavictim82

[SupremePrince]

uhhh congrats?

[Hymenbreach]

[quote name='FreeMason' timestamp='1284338452' post='2451775']
EDIT: I was wrong, my history was incorrect. If you would like to see where it was wrong, check pez's post below. I'm leaving the tl;dr because I still feel it's valid. Nevertheless, I'm just gonna drop this train of thought entirely.

[b]tl;dr: Pez's past actions have had a lasting effect on the Legion's reputation. However, her past actions are not by any means the only thing affecting the Legion's rep, and none of our internal issues are her fault.[/b]
[/quote]
This last part is what I said about 3 pages ago, before Pez did her usual tactic of SHOUTING A LOT, which is one way to move the debate on I suppose.

The Failed disbandment did damage the reputation. If you were to ask most enemies of the Legion why they have the reputation they would probably make the following shortlist:

Betrayal of the NPO in early GW's.
Bloated uselessness in GW111
Losing the propaganda war to NPO
Being a Chew toy for NPO's then running dogs, Valhalla, etc.
Swampy's Actions
Failed Disbandment Attempt
Viceroyship
'Stockholm syndrome'
Various modern PR failures.

And who cares if it made a big difference in the world? You punch me in the face and I'm not supposed to think it's important because the Chinese don't care?

[Banksy]

[quote name='Lincongrad' timestamp='1284344054' post='2451867']
it also doesn't mean we're the same alliance that we were in GWIII.[/quote]
You may not be the same alliance that you were in GW3, but [i]you[/i] (your alliance, that is, I don't know about you personally) keep on bringing up incidents like Pezstar's disbandment of Legion and claiming it is the reason why no one respects you anymore. If you want to demonstrate change then you can't really continue to put the blame on your alliance's lacklustre performance on the shoulders of Pez and the other Legion leaders between GW2-The Viceroy.

The other thing is, of course, that Legion hasn't properly demonstrated any change to the outside world. Your performance in Karma, while supportive of the NPO, was to the letter but no the spirit of the treaty. People walked over you and you entered into peace negotiations early. The performance in the BiPolar war wasn't much better. You paraded around those pathetic sigs where you claimed you were *annihilating* sparta (missing the fact that the growth charts were showing the night when the 25 hour limit on nuking was up and TOP nuked Sparta's upper tier). And of course you were fighting Sparta. Then the fiasco with peace talks and LF's bizarre cry baby thread showed us that our perceptions of Legion as a joke of an alliance were correct.

Even if Legion has changed internally, you have repeatedly failed to reflect that change internationally, which is why you have been christened the paper tiger and, now, the Worst Alliance Ever. Unless some sort of new legion is projected, (instead of these laughable threads, stories about, er, 'unique' government members and some of the worst posting on the OWF by your general membership) then the perception that the planet has of you will not change.

[Lincongrad]

The GWIII section of my post was in regards to the Paper Tiger label (a label which stemmed from that era). See my above post regarding Pez.

Of course we weren't trying to go above and beyond during Karma and the BiPolar War. We thought the reason for war in both cases was pretty much complete bull, which helped contribute to our lack of will to die for dumb decisions. Nonetheless, we never joined the ranks of the CoC and were unwaveringly dedicated to honoring our treaties.
Now, few things I'll go ahead and address:
1) Our performance against Sparta was good, not just based on growth charts (which, as you say, were influenced by other alliances), but also on constant reports from our nations as well as various wartime statistics such as anarchies, lack of enemy warchests, destruction caused on a personal level, etc. While it is of course risky to generalize from merely some reports, when one pushes forward across the board one feels a little safer giving generalizations. In addition, keep in mind that we were being hit by several small but high power, and some not so small, alliances in addition to Sparta.
2) Correct we were fighting Sparta. Note that I'm not claiming that we're ZOMG THE BEST MILITARY FORCE EVAR!!!
3) The false peace. Ah, the false peace. This is pretty much a perfect example of everyone simply seeing the worst in the Legion just because of bad rep. I've explained this a few times now, but I guess I'll go again. Legion goes to Sparta et al discussing white peace. Sparta demands reps. Negotiations ensue. Sparta et al decide that white peace is fine, but fail to get a yes on white peace from Legion (assuming it was implied by our initiation of the discussions themselves). Legion, not ready to quit, rushed a cabinet vote to overturn the peace decision, a decision which had never in fact been made. Legionnaires got very defensive over the fact that we were being unjustly accused of sucking/screwing over the peace talks. Hostile words ensued (and this is the only place in the incident where I think things were out of line on our end), during which Sparta decided that white peace was unacceptable and that reps would be imposed going on.
I find it quite odd that people who never took the time to look at the logs claim to have full knowledge of the story.
4) LF was out of line, and LF was fired and then left the alliance. End of story.

That said, I really do appreciate the relatively succinct and proactive nature of your criticisms. We are taking action to assure that several of these problems cannot happen again. For one, we're going to make it so that the alliance who surrenders is the one who posts their surrender. Easy fix to a bad situation there. And of course we're working on improving our military, ghost busting, and attempting to improve the quality of our OWF posters. We've had a rather long tradition of radio silence on the BBs, and it's taking us time to find our stride.

Also, Arbiter is no longer gov, if he's the one you're referring to as the 'unique' one. That information, though, should be taken in alongside the fact that many of Arb's detractors are by no means the best nation leaders in the world.

Questions?

Disclaimer: I will admit, my memory of the exact statistics of the Karma and BiPolar wars are hazy, and therefore my views on the war against Sparta are merely recollections of alliance battle reports, my own opponents, and a few other factors.

[Lincongrad]

Apologies, double post.

Edited September 13, 2010 by Lincongrad

[Hymenbreach]

[quote name='Banksy' timestamp='1284365939' post='2452109']
You may not be the same alliance that you were in GW3, but [i]you[/i] (your alliance, that is, I don't know about you personally) keep on bringing up incidents like Pezstar's disbandment of Legion and claiming it is the reason why no one respects you anymore.
[/quote]

Part of the reason. I'll say it again, it's only the fourth time. Part of the reason. And only in reference to her critting the Legion. Other people can think what they will, or what they're told to or what they think will put them in with the cool crowd.

[Lord Fingolfin]

[quote name='Banksy' timestamp='1284365939' post='2452109']
LF's bizarre cry baby thread showed us that our perceptions of Legion as a joke of an alliance were correct.
[/quote]

*sighs*

Definitely my stupidest move on Planet Bob, and one I regret daily. Don't write and post a rant you think is terribly witty when you're frustrated, haven't slept in over a day, are inebriated, and generally in no condition to be doing much of anything.

C'est la vie. Lincongrad, do everyone a favor and resuscitate The Legion and bring her back to glory

[Kalasin]

[quote name='Hymenbreach' timestamp='1284372994' post='2452150']
Part of the reason. I'll say it again, it's only the fourth time. Part of the reason. And only in reference to her critting the Legion. Other people can think what they will, or what they're told to or what they think will put them in with the cool crowd.
[/quote]

People respect VE, but they disbanded once. I don't think the fact that Legion disbanded has anything to do with the level of contempt which most people have for them these days. It's threads like this that are the problem.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1284373682' post='2452155']
People respect VE, but they disbanded once. I don't think the fact that Legion disbanded has anything to do with the level of contempt which most people have for them these days. It's threads like this that are the problem.
[/quote]
Actually, Legion didn't disband. This is the problem. People respect alliances like Nordreich, VE and GOONS because, when the going got tough, they packed it in. This is what most people would do, and people like it when other people don't mess with their preconceptions.

[Kalasin]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1284374541' post='2452164']
Actually, Legion didn't disband. This is the problem. People respect alliances like Nordreich, VE and GOONS because, when the going got tough, they packed it in. This is what most people would do, and people like it when other people don't mess with their preconceptions.
[/quote]

Alright then, my mistake. The fact that Pezstar attempted to disband the Legion/ had intentions to disband it has little to do with its reputation.

[Hymenbreach]

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1284374704' post='2452165']
Alright then, my mistake. The fact that Pezstar attempted to disband the Legion/ had intentions to disband it has little to do with its reputation.
[/quote]


Little is still part.

[Kalasin]

[quote name='Hymenbreach' timestamp='1284374796' post='2452167']
Little is still part.
[/quote]

Quite frankly Legion's done far more to hurt its reputation than Pezstar ever could.

[Hymenbreach]

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1284374903' post='2452169']
Quite frankly Legion's done far more to hurt its reputation than Pezstar ever could.
[/quote]


This is undoubtedly true. Still doesn't stop Pez having a small part to play in it.

[pezstar]

[quote name='Hymenbreach' timestamp='1284375614' post='2452171']
This is undoubtedly true. Still doesn't stop Pez having a small part to play in it.
[/quote]

At least we can agree that the impact I had, if any, was negligible at best.

[Hymenbreach]

So, we can admit you had some part? Good, good. We can now all move on.

[Joe Stupid]

Why is everyone calling for Legion to disband? I enjoy making war profitable.

[Dagrr]

Its like a Purplegate reunion in this thread. Anyway, I understand why Pezstar did what she did. I also understand why many Legion members like myself disagreed with her actions at the time. Conflicting interests; some people wanted Legion to disband quietly with its old reputation intact while others were willing to do what was necessary to keep it alive, albeit in a much changed form. That was nearly 3 years ago, so I don't care too much about the whole disbandment shenanigans anymore.

On this topic, I think it was a good idea in principle, but it could have been executed a little more professionally.

[Hymenbreach]

[quote name='Henry' timestamp='1284388038' post='2452264']
Its like a Purplegate reunion in this thread. Anyway, I understand why Pezstar did what she did. I also understand why many Legion members like myself disagreed with her actions at the time. Conflicting interests; some people wanted Legion to disband quietly with its old reputation intact while others were willing to do what was necessary to keep it alive, albeit in a much changed form. That was nearly 3 years ago, so I don't care too much about the whole disbandment shenanigans anymore.

On this topic, I think it was a good idea in principle, but it could have been executed a little more professionally.
[/quote]

Of course, no one seems to remember that NPO said they were going to stomp Legion members even if we disbanded (as Pez would know being MOFA and all) and so when she ran to hide behind some tigers, that left the ordinary members facing a stamp down for Swampy's actions. Where was the justice in that? How was that doing us a favour?