UOKMB war with GOONS

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1283896331' post='2445738']
Say what you will about the morality of using unaligned as nuclear testing grounds but our member was not a rogue, we have no set policy about using nukes in tech raiding, though we generally discourage it.
[/quote]

Using nukes offensively in tech raiding isn't something to be "discouraged" like using bombers, it's something that should be such a matter of common sense it shouldn't require a ban [b]because no one should ever do it[/b].

[tanglerat]

There is one guy that I'd quite like to hear his take on all of this.

He knows who he is. I'd be astonished if he isn't following these events. His name has been mentioned and yet he hasn't chipped in his tuppenceworth. That in itself in telling.

[King Minornut]

[quote name='tanglerat' timestamp='1283898151' post='2445770']
There is one guy that I'd quite like to hear his take on all of this.

He knows who he is. I'd be astonished if he isn't following these events. His name has been mentioned and yet he hasn't chipped in his tuppenceworth. That in itself in telling.
[/quote]

Indeed, Grog needs to show his quisling face

[Xavii]

[quote name='KingMinornut' timestamp='1283898753' post='2445781']
Indeed, Grog needs to show his quisling face
[/quote]
Why should he? He was smart enough to distance himself from you guys early on. Glad he did.

[King Minornut]

[quote name='Xavii' timestamp='1283899521' post='2445796']
Why should he? He was smart enough to distance himself from you guys early on. Glad he did.
[/quote]

And where was the mighty black senator when goons were raiding black on black?

[Xavii]

[quote name='KingMinornut' timestamp='1283899687' post='2445801']
And where was the mighty black senator when goons were raiding black on black?
[/quote]
While Umbrella disallows raiding of black nations for our own members, GOONS may do what they wish. If you guys wanted to avoid being raided you should have got yourself a protectorate.

Edited September 7, 2010 by Xavii

[Lairek]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1283897763' post='2445765']
Using nukes offensively in tech raiding isn't something to be "discouraged" like using bombers, it's something that should be such a matter of common sense it shouldn't require a ban [b]because no one should ever do it[/b].
[/quote]

Excuse me for questioning the bold, but why not? I mean, I can see the downside of doing it.. you kill off all his troops with it and he doesn´t rebuy so you can´t take more tech from him. But I´m guessing that that was not what you had in mind, so please tell me: Why not?



[quote name='KingMinornut' timestamp='1283899687' post='2445801']
And where was the mighty black senator when goons were raiding black on black?
[/quote]

Same place he always is. Protecting the actual alliances from harm by sanctioning rogues, nuclear or not. You know... like you guys.

[the rebel]

[quote name='Lairek' timestamp='1283900116' post='2445817']
Excuse me for questioning the bold, but why not? I mean, I can see the downside of doing it.. you kill off all his troops with it and he doesn´t rebuy so you can´t take more tech from him. But I´m guessing that that was not what you had in mind, so please tell me: Why not?[/quote]

Because then its not a tech raid its a war, i would of thought that was obvious but clearly not.

[Haquertal]

[quote name='the rebel' timestamp='1283900945' post='2445841']
Because then its not a tech raid its a war, i would of thought that was obvious but clearly not.
[/quote]

Nukes mean instant war? Is there a place that I can find a nice laid out set of rules that show this?

I mean, it's surely news to me.

EDIT: misspelled a word that obviously made my post less than "English"

Edited September 8, 2010 by Haquertal

[Raider]

[quote name='White Chocolate' timestamp='1283895045' post='2445712']
If exactly the same thing happened but it was done by an alliance other than the GOONS, yes. In fact, it might actually be worse for another alliance. Most people are use to the idea that GOONS act like GOONS.

Regarding your point about their intent, they stated they built up to attack GOONS because of the attack on them by a member of GOONS previous which involved the use of a nuke.

Different AA's build up with the hope of getting revenge for past actions all the time. The difference here is that they followed through. I'm not saying GOONs shouldn't have responded. That's to be expected. I think that bringing in other alliances was excessive and so was the sanction.

If you're going to have a policy that allows tech raids, from time to time expect that to upset people enough to attack in return - during the tech raid and/or after and build as needed taking that into account.
[/quote]
Well my good man. I must say I'm a little confused. You don't mind us responding, but you don't think we should have let friends who want to help help? Or use sanctions? Both actions help minimize the damage done to our alliance and let some of the more action minded friends have some fun. I simply do not understand the problem with these actions. I mean is because you don't think using them is "fair"? Most of the wars waged on Planet Bob have not been fair or even.

Also I believe they said they were in the process of building up, but hadn't picked a target until we came knocking, then decided they'd hit us. Any alliance allowing tech raiding could have been attacked, we just happened to be the ones who raided them first.

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Lairek' timestamp='1283900116' post='2445817']
Excuse me for questioning the bold, but why not? I mean, I can see the downside of doing it.. you kill off all his troops with it and he doesn´t rebuy so you can´t take more tech from him. But I´m guessing that that was not what you had in mind, so please tell me: Why not?[/quote]

On the assumption that you are a newer nation ruler and not some clown trying to be sarcastic, an honest answer:

Quite simply it goes against every single principle of raiding. If you drive at the point of a nuke every single non-n00b, unaligned (or small unprotected alliance) nation into either a protected alliance or off Planet Bob, then what's left to raid? Nothing, that's what.

It's the same as over raiding nations. Triple teaming and repeatedly raiding nations over and over causes them to delete or, if they are lucky, drives them into large alliances for protection. GOONS is one of the worst offenders at over raiding. You are quite literally killing the fun for everyone else.

[quote]Protecting the actual alliances from harm by sanctioning rogues, nuclear or not. You know... like you guys.[/quote]

Not the same thing, nice try I guess?

[the rebel]

[quote name='Haquertal' timestamp='1283901078' post='2445843']
Nukes mean isntant war? Is there a place that I can find a nice laid out set of rules that show this?

I mean, it's surely news to me.
[/quote]

If your question was in english and spelled correctly i could answer it, but maybe some goons are too stupid to understand that tech raids are two ground attacks, using anything else which isnt in self defense, means its an unsanctioned war and not a tech raid, hence the offender becomes a rogue...

[Itsuki Koizumi]

the thing is that the war was 2 months ago! they should have sought reps or something asap, but instead decided to wait 2 months and go out guns blazing. This is a clear overreaction that would've been fixed by some reps and foreign diplomacy. It's not GOONS's fault that these rogues decided on this path.

Edited September 7, 2010 by Itsuki Koizumi

[mrwuss]

[quote name='the rebel' timestamp='1283902162' post='2445861']
If your question was in english and spelled correctly i could answer it, but maybe some goons are too stupid to understand that tech raids are two ground attacks, using anything else which isnt in self defense, means its an unsanctioned war and not a tech raid, hence the offender becomes a rogue...
[/quote]


Oh nice job there going after the rogue "n" in a word. It invalidates the entire point and makes it 100% unable to be understood.

So, where is this list of rules you are abiding by and quoting. You know, so everyone else can read them and sign off.

[Udelar Johnson]

[quote name='the rebel' timestamp='1283902162' post='2445861']
If your question was in english and spelled correctly i could answer it, but maybe some goons are too stupid to understand that tech raids are two ground attacks, using anything else which isnt in self defense, means its an unsanctioned war and not a tech raid, hence the offender becomes a rogue...
[/quote]
I didn't sign this treaty. Can you show me where my government did?

Edited September 7, 2010 by Udelar Johnson

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Itsuki Koizumi' timestamp='1283902458' post='2445870']
the thing is that the war was 2 months ago! they should have sought reps or something asap, but instead decided to wait 2 months and go out guns blazing. This is a clear overreaction that would've been fixed by some reps and foreign diplomacy. It's not GOONS's fault that these rogues decided on this path.
[/quote]

There are people on Planet Bob that hold grudges for all variety matters (some not even directly affecting them, or even directly related to Planet Bob) for periods of [i]years[/i]. Given the current rate of GOONS raiding, I'm not surprised that someone would take a couple of months to rebuild, organize and then attack, nor should you be surprised in the slightest.

[Beefspari]

[quote name='the rebel' timestamp='1283902162' post='2445861']
If your question was in english and spelled correctly i could answer it, but maybe some goons are too stupid to understand that tech raids are two ground attacks, using anything else which isnt in self defense, means its an unsanctioned war and not a tech raid, hence the offender becomes a rogue...
[/quote]
I like the rules you're making up for us to follow, but I don't remember us signing off on them.

Tech raiding involves two GAs because that's the part that gives you profit. We don't disallow other actions. I know people who have, and even I've personally thrown bombers or CMs or spy operations to reduce the number of tanks and up my odds. It's generally a waste of money and can destroy the stuff you're stealing, but there are circumstances that call for it. Owning nukes is a great way to ensure that resistance is minimized. Sometimes you have to remind them that they aren't just for show.

People being raided have a lot of outs. We have the mercy board, discussion with govs, ally intervention, et cetera. If UOKMB chose not to take any of those routes and instead fight back silently, I'd do it too.

There's really no point arguing. We have our own rules for raiding, and we view them from a different angle as you. If UOKMB wanted the raid to stop they had a lot of options available to them. Instead they decided to turn it into a war. So it became one.

[the rebel]

[quote name='mrwuss' timestamp='1283903486' post='2445896']
Oh nice job there going after the rogue "n" in a word. It invalidates the entire point and makes it 100% unable to be understood.

So, where is this list of rules you are abiding by and quoting. You know, so everyone else can read them and sign off.[/quote]
[quote name='Udelar Johnson' timestamp='1283903649' post='2445897']
I didn't sign this treaty. Can you show me where my government did?[/quote]

So if i send afew nukes at GOONS and call it just a play fight, then it wont make it a war or me a rogue, so that would mean no help with sanctions or allied friends as it isnt a tech raid/war because i said so? Dont be pedantic, if most most in our world say what is and isnt a tech raid and war, then it becomes an unwritten rule.

[AAAAAAAAAAGGGG]

[quote name='the rebel' timestamp='1283904305' post='2445915']
So if i send afew nukes at GOONS and call it just a play fight, then it wont make it a war or me a rogue, so that would mean no help with sanctions or allied friends as it isnt a tech raid/war because i said so? Dont be pedantic, if most most in our world say what is and isnt a tech raid and war, then it becomes an unwritten rule.
[/quote]

Difference is you're in an established alliance, with allies, your own form of protection, etc, whereas (and you will probably disagree with me on this) UOKMB is not an alliance (though they may call themselves that), just a group of rogues with a like-minded idea of causing as much harm as they can to GOONS (albeit doing a terrible job at it). One rogue or eight rogues, a rogue is still a rogue, and they should be treated as such.

[Mandolus]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1283902045' post='2445859']GOONS is one of the worst offenders at over raiding. You are quite literally killing the fun for everyone else.
[/quote]

This is really regrettable but it's only due to the fact that GOONS has far more nations in raiding range than any other raid alliance. Every raiding alliance hops on targets the moment they find them, GOONS included. You can't really blame us for our effectiveness in recruiting!

[mrwuss]

[quote name='the rebel' timestamp='1283904305' post='2445915']
So if i send afew nukes at GOONS and call it just a play fight, then it wont make it a war or me a rogue, so that would mean no help with sanctions or allied friends as it isnt a tech raid/war because i said so? Dont be pedantic, if most most in our world say what is and isnt a tech raid and war, then it becomes an unwritten rule.
[/quote]


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[Udelar Johnson]

[quote name='the rebel' timestamp='1283904305' post='2445915']
So if i send afew nukes at GOONS and call it just a play fight, then it wont make it a war or me a rogue, so that would mean no help with sanctions or allied friends as it isnt a tech raid/war because i said so? Dont be pedantic, if most most in our world say what is and isnt a tech raid and war, then it becomes an unwritten rule.
[/quote]
So some nebulous community has collectively made this decision for us, without our input. I eagerly await the just punishment that will no doubt shortly follow your righteous condemnation.

[tanglerat]

We got attacked. It was unprovoked. We chose our own way to respond. Simple as that, really.

I'm not affected by sanctions and I don't really care overmuch either way about their use against us. They're a reality, and we'll deal with them as we can. Though I do think they an over-reaction in this case and a bit of a low blow, like I said I don't care overmuch.

Going into this I was quite prepared to spend every last penny, infra and tech fighting before pressing the delete button, I have to say the whole politikking/intrigueing that goes on here is fascinating and oddly compelling. That alone might persuade me to re-roll when the dust settles.

Also, kudos to the goons for being good sports about this. You're a decent enemy, though I suspect you've been ill-advised about us right from the start. [i]He[/i] knew, and should have passed on, what we're like and how we react. Possibly you've been used as a tool in a greater game.

[the rebel]

[quote name='Udelar Johnson' timestamp='1283905351' post='2445939']
So some nebulous community has collectively made this decision for us, without our input. I eagerly await the just punishment that will no doubt shortly follow your righteous condemnation.[/quote]

Heh, what goes around comes around, the world has a long memory and you wont always be so well connected with allies you dont deserve...

[Udelar Johnson]

[quote name='the rebel' timestamp='1283905897' post='2445955']
Heh, what goes around comes around, the world has a long memory and you wont always be so well connected with allies you dont deserve...
[/quote]
Yes, children, it's the scary part of the story. But whenever things look bleakest, remember: there's a hero somewhere out there who can take on the fearsome beast, and then they'll all live happily ever after.