A Couple of Tech Raiding Rules

[justavictim82]

[quote name='oinkoink12' timestamp='1283206257' post='2436164']

And you forget 6: I need to get back to number 1 casualties. ASAP
[/quote]

So hitting him with only ground attacks instead of CM,AF,Navy,Nukes (for retaliations sake and to bolster that number) is the way to get there? Admit you made wanted a free dinner. Also Ill be watching for the next time someone rogues FOK! I could always use more tech. That ok right?

[Bavaricar]

[quote name='Aeternos Astramora' timestamp='1283216634' post='2436368']
Thanks for actually talking about the OP.

If talking to a rogue helps, then do it. However, I'm guessing it usually won't, although the times it does work would be valuable. I suppose I implicitly assumed that attempted diplomacy had already failed when making this thread, in which the OP stands.
[/quote]

You're welcome. In this particular case where some snake in the grass alliance leader(s) allegedly encouraged the roguery, you probably are guessing correctly for this situation. But that makes this more than a rogue event.

As for traditional rogues, I know from experience that you are guessing incorrectly that dialogue does not work. You know how people think of rogues as attention whores? Well, think about that a bit. The mistake most make with rogues is they usually go into bunker mode and think of them as "terrorists" or irrational actors or some other such nonsense.

Of course, back to your case specifically, after reading more closely now, I see your problem is not really one at the rogue level, it is a problem with another alliance. I wonder what it would take to get the alliance(s) of the alliance leader(s) behind these rogue attacks attacked? One would think that would be a good CB? Oh that's right, they are a part of the new dominant power structure...

You have my empathy.

Edited August 31, 2010 by Bavaricar

[Matt Miller]

[quote name='oinkoink12' timestamp='1283206257' post='2436164']
And you forget 6: I need to get back to number 1 casualties. ASAP
[/quote]

Good luck with that.

[Sakura]

[quote name='Aeternos Astramora' timestamp='1283191377' post='2435920']
<long and wordy post>
[/quote]

It simply won't work. And, even if you get the majority opinion, it would be unenforceable without a treaty being signed by all tech raiding alliances. Plus, is it really as much of a problem as you think it is?

And simply put... why should a raider be forced to do attacks that *violate the raid rules of their alliances*?

You should not expect us to become your foot-soldiers. Likewise, the raid rules vary from alliance to alliance. Your 'rules' would break that sovereignty. Which is only something you can do through a treaty or winning a war. Since I don't see any chance of the former, the latter would require that you declare war on, and win, against every raiding alliance.

[Kortal]

Why would anyone only use ground attacks in a raid

What is this 2006

[agafaba]

[quote name='Sakura' timestamp='1283220180' post='2436453']
It simply won't work. And, even if you get the majority opinion, it would be unenforceable without a treaty being signed by all tech raiding alliances. Plus, is it really as much of a problem as you think it is?

And simply put... why should a raider be forced to do attacks that *violate the raid rules of their alliances*?

You should not expect us to become your foot-soldiers. Likewise, the raid rules vary from alliance to alliance. Your 'rules' would break that sovereignty. Which is only something you can do through a treaty or winning a war. Since I don't see any chance of the former, the latter would require that you declare war on, and win, against every raiding alliance.
[/quote]

One could say that you shouldnt volunteer to be one of their foot soldiers either.

I wouldnt really care if people filled the slots of someone I was attacking as long as they didnt ruin the stagger.

[Masterof9puppets]

[quote name='Bavaricar' timestamp='1283216435' post='2436361']
The angst and wasted alliance operations time put forth by the OP is humorous to someone like me.

Has anyone ever thought of actually talking to a "rogue" instead of wasting alliance resources trying to keep them out of peacemode?

Most rogues usually have a reason that can be talked through. Try talking to one, you might surprise yourself. Not that I have any experience with this sort of thing or anything...
[/quote]

I mean, if I was a rogue and the alliance I was roguing on was talking to me, it probably wouldn't change anything

[quote name='Matt Miller' timestamp='1283218971' post='2436425']
Good luck with that.
[/quote]

I'm only 28 away, yet so, so far....

Edited August 31, 2010 by Masterof9puppets

[Aeternos Astramora]

[quote name='Sakura' timestamp='1283220180' post='2436453']It simply won't work. And, even if you get the majority opinion, it would be unenforceable without a treaty being signed by all tech raiding alliances. Plus, is it really as much of a problem as you think it is?

And simply put... why should a raider be forced to do attacks that *violate the raid rules of their alliances*?

You should not expect us to become your foot-soldiers. Likewise, the raid rules vary from alliance to alliance. Your 'rules' would break that sovereignty. Which is only something you can do through a treaty or winning a war. Since I don't see any chance of the former, the latter would require that you declare war on, and win, against every raiding alliance.[/quote]
I could easily argue that slot filling a rogue's defensive war slots violates the rogued nation's alliance's sovereignty by making them incapable of properly defending themselves. This guy broke into a house to beat up on the homeowner. Three other guys come into the house and start flicking the criminal in the arm. Meanwhile, the homeowner's friends can't come help and beat the criminal up because they can't get close enough to lay down some punches.

Edit: Very glad to see everyone back on topic.

Edited August 31, 2010 by Aeternos Astramora

[Louisa]

Not that I really care, but why not wait until Update approaches and then do a proper stagger yourself (2-1 or 1-2, at your leisure) instead of this immediate response and then leaving at least 1 slot free for hours, basically inviting in free raiders?

[Aeternos Astramora]

[quote name='Louisa' timestamp='1283230112' post='2436653']Not that I really care, but why not wait until Update approaches and then do a proper stagger yourself (2-1 or 1-2, at your leisure) instead of this immediate response and then leaving at least 1 slot free for hours, basically inviting in free raiders?[/quote]
Because then you don't get [i]any[/i] slots.

Additionally, if the nation can hit peace mode, you MUST attack with at least one person immediately after midnight.

[WorldConqueror]

Respect to Otter for bringing this up. I noticed the Kronos and NEW guys ruining the staggers, and it is incredibly frustrating seeing other alliances giving rogues the opportunity to slip in to peace mode. By attacking and ruining staggers you are aiding the rogue in further damaging his targets by taking a slot a real attacker could have had. It seems quite odd that this is generally accepted among the community, when people sending monetary aid to rogues is frowned upon, and the sender is sometimes attacked. The recent NSO war was started by that very act, aiding a rogue. Yet the same people cheering that war are here saying that what amounts to slot filling is perfectly fine.

[Louisa]

[quote name='Aeternos Astramora' timestamp='1283235914' post='2436808']
Because then you don't get [i]any[/i] slots.

Additionally, if the nation can hit peace mode, you MUST attack with at least one person immediately after midnight.
[/quote]

Well, I meant as your first response, the same day that he first attacks you. Since the offender just went rogue on your Alliance that day, he is at war and cannot go to Peace Mode. Then you put one attacker on him just before Update, and another just after Update. This way you control the staggers yourself. Did that make better sense of what I wanted to say?

(But in a way I must commend raiders who are apparently so active that they respond to rogue attacks on other Alliances within minutes or hours that first day )

(WorldConqueror -- [OOC?] it is not slot filling if they actually attack, you know.)

[WorldConqueror]

[quote name='Louisa' timestamp='1283242718' post='2436854']
(WorldConqueror -- [OOC?] it is not slot filling if they actually attack, you know.)
[/quote]
I realise that, which is why I said it amounts to it. Because no matter the reasoning behind it, if you are taking a slot on a rogue but not doing full attacks, you are saving them from an attacker from the alliance they rogued on, and thus are materially aiding their war against the alliance they attacked by slowing the rate at which they lose tech and infra.

So no, it's not slot filling in the strict sense of the term, but it basically amounts to the same thing.

Edited August 31, 2010 by WorldConqueror

[oinkoink12]

[quote name='justavictim82' timestamp='1283217654' post='2436398']
So hitting him with only ground attacks instead of CM,AF,Navy,Nukes (for retaliations sake and to bolster that number) is the way to get there? Admit you made wanted a free dinner. Also Ill be watching for the next time someone rogues FOK! I could always use more tech. That ok right?
[/quote]

yes, GA's are the way to get there.
CM AF and NAVY arent gonna do alot of casualty increase.
I wouldnt mind if you hit someone that rogues a Fokker, aslong as you dont mess up a stagger.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1283207908' post='2436193']
A tech raider who screws a stagger should have to pay reps for any extra damage done. Taking the first two slots seems fine though if they coordinate and attack properly.
[/quote]
They never attack properly. They don't want to get nuked by the rogue.

[quote name='Bavaricar' timestamp='1283216435' post='2436361']
Most rogues usually have a reason that can be talked through. Try talking to one, you might surprise yourself. Not that I have any experience with this sort of thing or anything...
[/quote]
No, they usually don't. Most rogues are just trying to get their attacks in and then duck to peace mode.

You're an unusual case.

[quote name='Louisa' timestamp='1283230112' post='2436653']
Not that I really care, but why not wait until Update approaches and then do a proper stagger yourself (2-1 or 1-2, at your leisure) instead of this immediate response and then leaving at least 1 slot free for hours, basically inviting in free raiders?
[/quote]
Because the raiders will launch an immediate response. Someone will find the rogue sitting on None in the hours before update and launch the raid.

Edited August 31, 2010 by Haflinger

[Hereno]

Voted "no". If it bothers you that much, declare war on the raiders. It seems like most of the raiders you've been dealing with have been nice enough to at least cooperate with you somewhat, anyway.

[Salmacis]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1283254072' post='2436944']
Most rogues are just trying to get their attacks in and then duck to peace mode. You're an unusual case.
[/quote]

I disagree. Peace mode is only useful to resplenish a nuclear stockpile. Most nuclear rogues will prefer to spend their last dongs in nuking their foes than by staying idle in peace mode.
Stagger does speed up the process, right, but I believe a rogue in P-ZI will get what he deserve eventually, whether he can escape to peace mode every now and then or if he's staggered. It is not my case, 'cause I'm stubborn, but a staggered rogue will delete more often than a rogue living with the hope to hit PM. In other words staggers are just as immoral as nuclear rogues, if not more. At least I never wanted Otter or NPO out of Planet Bob.

Edited August 31, 2010 by Salmacis

[Jesse End]

[quote name='Louisa' timestamp='1283242718' post='2436854']
Well, I meant as your first response, the same day that he first attacks you. Since the offender just went rogue on your Alliance that day, he is at war and cannot go to Peace Mode. Then you put one attacker on him just before Update, and another just after Update. This way you control the staggers yourself. Did that make better sense of what I wanted to say?
[/quote]

When the stagger has been ruined, therefore all 3 wars expire at the same time, how do you plan on re-establishing a stagger by attacking just before update and again just after update without leaving any slots open for 24 hours?

[quote name='Salmacis' timestamp='1283261172' post='2436988']
I disagree. Peace mode is only useful to resplenish a nuclear stockpile. Most nuclear rogues will prefer to spend their last dongs in nuking their foes than by staying idle in peace mode.
Stagger does speed up the process, right, but I believe a rogue in P-ZI will get what he deserve eventually, whether he can escape to peace mode every now and then or if he's staggered. It is not my case, 'cause I'm stubborn, but a staggered rogue will delete more often than a rogue living with the hope to hit PM. In other words staggers are just as immoral as nuclear rogues, if not more. At least I never wanted Otter or NPO out of Planet Bob.
[/quote]

Rogue attacks alliance = just having fun
Alliance retaliating with staggered DoWs = trying to force someone out of Planet Bob.

Nice logic haha

[Edit: IC]

Edited August 31, 2010 by Jesse End

[Salmacis]

[quote name='Jesse End' timestamp='1283263284' post='2437012']
Rogue attacks alliance = just having fun
[/quote]
I never said that. It is detrimental for other players, some of them even cry about their infra, that's precisely I why was calling nuke rogues "immoral" (for the lack of a better word).

[quote]
Alliance retaliating with staggered DoWs = trying to force someone out of the game.[/quote]
Wrong again. I never said you were actively trying to [OOC]force people out of the game[/OOC], I was merely pointing out that it is what a stagger generally accomplishes in the facts.

[Louisa]

[quote name='Jesse End' timestamp='1283263284' post='2437012']
When the stagger has been ruined, therefore all 3 wars expire at the same time, how do you plan on re-establishing a stagger by attacking just before update and again just after update without leaving any slots open for 24 hours?
[/quote]

I was talking of the first day, the day that the rogue actually goes rogue. One attack that same day (before Update), another just after Update and he is automatically staggered. Of course, if [b]all three slots[/b] are already full of raiders, that is impossible and so some thing else needs to be done. Like use some diplomacy hoping to get the raiders out.

Still, what do I know -- I have only ever raided twice: once in the very first Tournament when I rogued the Old-GOONS leadership, and once a few months ago when I proved so bad at it that I showered my target in cash (much more than enough to pay the damages) [img]http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r7/Louisa00/awesomepwn.gif[/img]

[GearHead]

Disregarding my stance on tech raiding is strictly against it, I agree with the OP completely. I've had to coordinate rogue-killing wars around tech raiders too, and it's a major pain. Go away, scoundrels - you're doing more harm than good.

[ChairmanHal]

Silly posturing aside ("Try and stop us."), I think it says more about the state of raiding that someone can jump in on a rogue before an active alliance that is under attack by said rogue can fully act. It says you have a lot of people out there who sit around hitting the 'F5' button for hours when they should be doing something to help grow Planet Bob and/or their alliance with their time.

Now that some of you have been taken to the woodshed, I'll finish with this: it's annoying to have someone jump the target when you are rogue hunting, but unless you are prepared to call that a good CB, you aren't going to make people act appropriately.

Edited August 31, 2010 by ChairmanHal

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Salmacis' timestamp='1283261172' post='2436988']
I disagree. Peace mode is only useful to resplenish a nuclear stockpile. Most nuclear rogues will prefer to spend their last dongs in nuking their foes than by staying idle in peace mode.
[/quote]
Most nuclear rogues are not leaving Planet Bob. Peace mode is how they get into their next alliance; they find one of the alliances like Kronos that takes in rogues and dare the attacked alliance to launch wars on them once they come out of dove.

Of the ones who are, they generally want to delete their nation on their own timetable, as in once they're out of warchest (which is usually quickly; the ones who are leaving are very rarely well-prepared). Sometimes this is because they want to reroll immediately.

[Salmacis]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1283268109' post='2437079']
Most nuclear rogues are not leaving Planet Bob. Peace mode is how they get into their next alliance; they find one of the alliances like Kronos that takes in rogues and dare the attacked alliance to launch wars on them once they come out of dove.
[/quote]

Oh, interesting! But if I want my name off the P-ZI list, I'd rather pay some reps or do any humiliating chore they might come up with. I want to play it fair.
But if they won't let me...
The Puppet guy seemed to be cool too. And there's Dankbud. Ok, food for thought, thanks for the tip Haf.

[silentkiller]

[quote name='Salmacis' timestamp='1283269657' post='2437095']
Oh, interesting! But if I want my name off the P-ZI list, I'd rather pay some reps or do any humiliating chore they might come up with. I want to play it fair.
But if they won't let me...
The Puppet guy seemed to be cool too. And there's Dankbud. Ok, food for thought, thanks for the tip Haf.
[/quote]

pzi list? What are you smoking?