In Response to Recent Drama

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='goldielax25' timestamp='1281371453' post='2407730']
VE told GATO sometime around 3 PM EST, which is when we were able to get a hold of Omni.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]And we told GATO two hours (yes, a freaking two hour delay in the freaking afternoon when most people have better things to do than be here later as soon as some of us were around. Believe it or not, but we do have other things to do during the day and do not spend our entire lives waiting and sitting around to tell Omni the latest news.

Anyway, expect full logs at some point tonight. It'll show you a whole different Omni.[/color]

[Wad of Lint]

[quote name='James Wilson' timestamp='1281371646' post='2407731']
Your !@#$%^& kidding right?

[22:17] <VanHooIII[RoK]> And we'd consider aid sent to a nation we deem a rogue and are at war with as an act of war

Do you need me to tell you in the kids version what that means? Well, little boy, it means that if you help that bad kid who hurt them, they'll hurt you too.

Now do you get it? You knew RoK threatened war. I like laughing too. At how incompetent your government seems to be. You knew about a possible war WELL before anyone told us anything.
[/quote]

I'm not kidding anyone. RoK was informed the nation would be under protection until further proof was provided. They initiated this process when they declared without conducting the due process of diplomacy. NSO, however, does not blow such petty things out of proportion. Why would we expect RoK to explode like a teenage pimple?

[Laslo Kenez]

It's also worth noting that the egrigious moralising from many of you is at best pathetic; "heh, some allies you turn out to be" appears to be the distilled criticism , which is interesting considering that your choice of friends makes no attempt to breach divides or actually change anything. Our former alliance with NSO was met with no respect from many of the people criticising GATO or at least their fellow alliance membership, due to it being one of the few clear links to "the other side". It's not hard stick to your friends when you're all allied to the same people. Our attempt to be friends with NSO was eventually unworkable (due to them ) but at least we tried something different and to improve relations on our colour sphere in a way many of our contemporaries have completely failed to do. And while many of you say "welp, you shouldn't have cancelled", we're also allied to one of the alliances on the attack; in a world where you're on both sides and one is being less than a friend in your eyes, it pays to make decisions.

It's you, critics.

You're the spineless ones. The armchair foreign policy expert with nothing to actually contribute. The only worthwhile criticism in here is from NSO, the rest is static.

[Omniscient1]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1281371792' post='2407742']
[color="#0000FF"]And we told GATO two hours (yes, a freaking two hour delay in the freaking afternoon when most people have better things to do than be here later as soon as some of us were around. Believe it or not, but we do have other things to do during the day and do not spend our entire lives waiting and sitting around to tell Omni the latest news.

Anyway, expect full logs at some point tonight. It'll show you a whole different Omni.[/color]
[/quote]

I'll be glad to pm you those logs RV. It's only you apologizing about an issue that you knew you were wrong in. Then me trying to be diplomatic about the situation. I don't normally post logs on any of my private convos though, but if you'd like them posted that's fine.

[R3nowned]

[quote name='SoADarthCyfe6' timestamp='1281368642' post='2407632']
Once again as stated earlier in this thread, it is no cancellation, the treaty is now considered null and void due to NSO breaking it.
[/quote]
From the looks of things, you haven't served in FA. Either that, or you're just being dense. Treaties don't get voided over technicalities. That clause is there - in my opinion - purely for tradition. If you're signing a PIAT+ with someone, you tell them stuff so you.. you know, keep the relationship going. A treaty is a mere formalisation of what two alliances already feel for each other. (OOC: think of it like marriage - a simple formalisation of what's already there). Clearly, the spirit of the treaty was already dead if GATO used a technicality to cancel the treaty.

NSO notified them as soon as they could (OOC: you don't notify people at 4am in the morning. You're meant to be asleep). If GATO knew earlier than NSO that NSO was going to be attacked, then [i]it's up to GATO to notify them of the impending attack[/i].

[James Wilson]

[quote name='Wad of Lint' timestamp='1281371920' post='2407745']
I'm not kidding anyone. RoK was informed the nation would be under protection until further proof was provided. They initiated this process when they declared without conducting the due process of diplomacy. NSO, however, does not blow such petty things out of proportion. Why would we expect RoK to explode like a teenage pimple?
[/quote]
This is CN Lint. You know as well as everybody else here does, that in the summer, something as petty as this, can most definitely lead to war. And, no matter what, a threat is a threat. You were threatened, which in essence threatens us. You are obligated to inform us of this threat. Your government members who were acting in your stead, did not. Thus, you failed to uphold the treaty.

[Hymenbreach]

From reading the logs, NSO didn't think there was going to be a problem and were surprised that there was. This is probably the reason why GATO wasn't informed until it was late in the day.

The more I think about it, nobody comes out of this looking well.

[Gn0xious Jr]

sounds like the strength of the relationship behind the treaty was weakened prior to this announcement...
i would expect treaty partners to give a [b]fair[/b] heads up if there is some trouble a'brewin' that could lead to potential war...
on the flip side, i'd also expect treaty partners who hear of a potential war or act of aggression against my alliance from other 3rd parties, give us a quick heads up...

a damn shame to see things dissolve in this fashion

[Omniscient1]

[quote name='R3nowned' timestamp='1281372162' post='2407752']
From the looks of things, you haven't served in FA. Either that, or you're just being dense. Treaties don't get voided over technicalities. That clause is there - in my opinion - purely for tradition. If you're signing a PIAT+ with someone, you tell them stuff so you.. you know, keep the relationship going. A treaty is a mere formalisation of what two alliances already feel for each other. (OOC: think of it like marriage - a simple formalisation of what's already there). Clearly, the spirit of the treaty was already dead if GATO used a technicality to cancel the treaty.

NSO notified them as soon as they could (OOC: you don't notify people at 4am in the morning. You're meant to be asleep). If GATO knew earlier than NSO that NSO was going to be attacked, then [i]it's up to GATO to notify them of the impending attack[/i].
[/quote]

NSO had a chance to notify us at 12:00 which I still feel is ok that they didn't, but when the next morning a NSO gov member is just chilling in our co-alliance channel and still hasn't said anything that's what pisses me off.

[Locke426]

I anxiously await the log vs log dumping.

[Jrenster]

[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1281369748' post='2407670']
You guys knew as soon as saturday night too. Do you know why? because you caused the entire thing. VE was the first to come tell us what happened. [/quote]

I'm sorry that not all of our high government can be on 24/7. You realize that I found out at like 3 in the morning. Heggo knew bits and pieces of it but was on vacation. Dopp doesn't really pay attention to a lot of things and was probably not active at the moment. Lennox wasn't in the alliance at that time. Anthony was on vacation and didn't know til I told him via the other realm right when I found out, which was at 3 in the morning. Heft and RV were the only viable options of people to tell you, but like I said, you probably weren't exactly on our mind when we were trying to calm down RoK. Two people can only do and remember so many things.


[quote]
Right since that's the only way we supported you guys. We never shielded you from trouble before or anything like that. I didn't get nuked by a rogue just so I could make sure my allies had someone to back them up.
[/quote]

Don't get me wrong. You guys have helped us from time to time. Not all the time, but you have. You guys haven't exactly always been the best ally, but we've always understood your situation and we tried cope with it. We understood when you couldn't help us during the first section of the Bi-Polar War. We would have appreciated some help, but you weren't obligated to do anything. When you guys promised us rebuilding aid for after the war and we didn't get it, we looked past it because we didn't think it would be that big of a problem. Yes. You've assisted us a couple of times, and so have we. We have been in good communication this entire time, despite our shaky past as allies.

[quote]
You're right Zoom. We thought someone was our friends and they turned out not to be. We were used and stabbed in the back and left in a !@#$%* no win situation. Thanks NSO all hats off to you.
[/quote]

Oh yeah. We definitely stabbed you in the back when we did a 360 and hit you from behind.

Omni, you're a headstrong guy, but you have got to learn not to pull !@#$ out of your $@!. I don't see how the hell we used you in any circumstances. In fact, we completely waived our treaty. You didn't even have to defend us.

[quote]
Wow now this story changes alot. It's gone from four in the morning and everyone was about to drop out from exhaustion to 12:30 at night and they were all to busy to talk to us. I'm glad we don't rank high on your list of things to cover.
[/quote]

This doesn't change anything. Our talks were being held up until 3 in the morning. Heft sent the actual aid at 1230. Sorry that we didn't tell you at 12:31 or 12:32. Your temporal argument sucks and you should probably stop running that line.

After looking back some things, there's a lot of fishy things about this cancellation. Like the fact that you took until after RoK hit us to come up with this excuse about us not telling you anything. I heard that you weren't going to leave us to dry when I got on yesterday afternoon. Your opinion changed so quickly. I'm wondering if anyone whispered into your ear? I know people like Xiph have been asking you to cancel us.

[Goldie]

[quote name='Wad of Lint' timestamp='1281371669' post='2407733']
So what you are saying is, even if we had known beforehand, the soonest we could have told Omni was 3 PM EST? Not long before conversations with him did start?

I'm totally understanding this non-inform issue.
[/quote]

Exactly, you are confirming that Omni found out about the issue, and 'not long' after, he talked to you about it. I'm not going to get in the middle of GATO-NSO relations, I'm just here to produce the facts when they seem to be sorely needed.

[gantanX]

i just read the OP and its a crap..
GATO is a crap !! canceling your allies when they're being outnumbered ??!! CRAP !!

[Believland]

[quote name='Wad of Lint' timestamp='1281371118' post='2407719']
You missed the entire point.

The kids version:
NSO is happily playing in the school yard. Big bad bullies RoK and VE begin talking about beating up NSO. GATO overhears. The next day NSO is warned by friends. NSO informs his other friends. RoK and VE go beat on NSO. GATO ends friendship with NSO because NSO didn't tell GATO he was going to get beat up earlier!

Now you get it? We cannot tell you something we do not know. It's laughably impossible. Fortunately I like laughing, currently at GATO. The point is you seem to have had impending knowledge of certainty of war far before NSO did, and yet chose not to inform us. Or at least that is what Omniscient's post indicates. I hope you wish to provide some further clarification, or this joke needs no punchline.
[/quote]

This is about as funny as Vladimir Stukov's "Kid version" last war.

"And we'd consider aid sent to a nation we deem a rogue and are at war with as an act of war"
How do you not know what that means?

[SpoiL]

[quote name='Wad of Lint' timestamp='1281371920' post='2407745']
I'm not kidding anyone. [b]RoK was informed the nation would be under protection until further proof was provided.[/b] They initiated this process when they declared without conducting the due process of diplomacy. NSO, however, does not blow such petty things out of proportion. Why would we expect RoK to explode like a teenage pimple?
[/quote]

This hasn't been said enough.

Even if GATO were informed whenever it was that they would have liked to have been, they still would either be canceling the treaty or at least not honoring it based on the idea that it was NSO committing an aggressive act when in fact RoK was equally informed that the member was under our protection until reasoning not to be was given. And GATO can't be on the side of the aggressor by charter, right?

[Jrenster]

[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1281372393' post='2407760']
NSO had a chance to notify us at 12:00 which I still feel is ok that they didn't, but when the next morning a NSO gov member is just chilling in our co-alliance channel and still hasn't said anything that's what pisses me off.
[/quote]

You're pissed off because of a time issue? I'm annoyed that you're even considering that a reason to cancel a friendship that's been built like this over a simple line of miscommunication; for which we have plenty of reasons to cover our tracks. Your argument is getting dimmer the more you run it. I suggest you come up with a new reason fast, because it's starting to become obvious that this is not the only reason you canceled on us. I hate wadding through !@#$%^&* and dishonesty.

[Krunk the Great]

[quote name='gantanX' timestamp='1281372647' post='2407769']
i just read the OP and its a crap..
GATO is a [b]crap[/b] !! canceling your allies when they're being outnumbered ??!! [b]CRAP[/b] !!
[/quote]

Wrong alliance

[Omniscient1]

[quote name='SpoiL' timestamp='1281372717' post='2407772']
This hasn't been said enough.

Even if GATO were informed whenever it was that they would have liked to have been, they still would either be canceling the treaty or at least not honoring it based on the idea that it was NSO committing an aggressive act when in fact RoK was equally informed that the member was under our protection until reasoning not to be was given. And GATO can't be on the side of the aggressor by charter, right?
[/quote]

Actually that is a complete lie. Ask Impero, and anyone else we were talking to at the time.

[lordliam]

Um, at least you're not as bad as the NPO?

Good luck to both parties anyway.

[Goldie]

[quote name='SpoiL' timestamp='1281372717' post='2407772']
This hasn't been said enough.

Even if GATO were informed whenever it was that they would have liked to have been, they still would either be canceling the treaty or at least not honoring it based on the idea that it was NSO committing an aggressive act when in fact RoK was equally informed that the member was under our protection until reasoning not to be was given. And GATO can't be on the side of the aggressor by charter, right?
[/quote]

Hint: Don't offer protection for people until you know why they need it. Maybe you've done it before successfully but generally people needing protection have someone mad enough at them to actually want to fulfill their desires to punish them. Had you instead told Hoo, can we work out this situation with the rogue, so you can get your licks in and then he can become a member of NSO, we wouldn't be fighting this war. But instead of that, he was told you guys were protecting him.

Well, you got your wish. Protecting means willing to go to war over a nation's defense. Unfortunately for you you got your war.

[Jrenster]

[quote name='goldielax25' timestamp='1281373426' post='2407786']
Hint: Don't offer protection for people until you know why they need it. Maybe you've done it before successfully but generally people needing protection have someone mad enough at them to actually want to fulfill their desires to punish them. Had you instead told Hoo, can we work out this situation with the rogue, so you can get your licks in and then he can become a member of NSO, we wouldn't be fighting this war. But instead of that, he was told you guys were protecting him.

Well, you got your wish. Protecting means willing to go to war over a nation's defense. Unfortunately for you you got your war.
[/quote]

We're not going to let people attacking us determine our policy.

[Goldie]

[quote name='Jrenster' timestamp='1281373559' post='2407788']
We're not going to let people attacking us determine our policy.
[/quote]

So don't be all up in arms when people do attack you over it!

[Jrenster]

[quote name='goldielax25' timestamp='1281373706' post='2407793']
So don't be all up in arms when people do attack you over it!
[/quote]

We're not. We just need to set some few facts straight. You guys seem to be painting this as if we didn't try to negotiate when in fact we did. And when I say you guys, I don't mean you in particular.

[Joseph Black]

I don't agree with this cancellation, but Omni, I wish you and the rest of GATO the best.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1281371959' post='2407747']
I'll be glad to pm you those logs RV. It's only you apologizing about an issue that you knew you were wrong in. Then me trying to be diplomatic about the situation. I don't normally post logs on any of my private convos though, but if you'd like them posted that's fine.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]An apology that was one or two lines, and only expressed due to the high esteem that I held GATO in as well as my personal regret in regards to how the situation developed. It was by no means me prostrating myself before you as you seem to be wishing to make this out.

I hate posting logs as well, but I'm willing to make an exception here because you're clearly telling a whole different story. I'll let the facts speak for themselves.[/color]

Edited August 9, 2010 by Rebel Virginia