Decree of the Sith

[m3g4tr0n]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1281541892' post='2411145']
Yes, we are aware that the CB is disobeying Hoo.
[/quote]

I think all of their CBs are like that.

[R&R-Viking]

[quote name='memoryproblems' timestamp='1281546374' post='2411223']
You know what else isn't ok? Having 3 members declare war on a member of another alliance without even talking to said other alliance about the situation. Regardless of what NSO did, I'd consider that a more valid act of war then any aid that NSO sent Sedrick.
[/quote]

Admitting a member with active wars is right up there with aiding people with active wars against established alliances, as far as things frowned upon historically go. We've had a bit of a paradigm shift the past few days and suddenly both are ok because why? NSO said so?

Then it's clearly ok to launch a war over the aid because Hoo said so.

-also, good to see you didn't quit after the Karma War like you said you were going to when I bill locked you. I'd hate to have a nation quitting being on my conscience.

Edited August 11, 2010 by Viking

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1281545496' post='2411209']
Let's see if we can't freshen this argument up some. If, as NSO said, they sent aid to help protect one of their members (and they always protect their members, so they say)What makes this new applicant more important than one of your long standing prominent members? Why would you spit in RoK's face for a brand new member and yet let another of your very loyal members go it alone?

Care to answer?
[/quote]
I don't see how giving a new member aid makes him more important than long standing members, its pretty standard to give aid to new members who need it and those who are under attack. I'm not sure who this member is they let go it alone you refer to, but if he chose to go it alone then it makes sense. I think those who declared on a member of NSO while he was still a member are clearly the aggressors here. If those who declared on a member of NSO weren't looking for a war this could of been avoided easily by being diplomatic about whatever grievances they had with this new NSO member rather than just attacking.

I think NSO's response is very justified and it was RoK spitting in NSO's face by attacking a member of NSO without trying diplomacy first.

Edited August 11, 2010 by Methrage

[uaciaut]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1281544502' post='2411191']
No, this is not the case.

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?app=blog&module=display&section=blog&blogid=22&showentry=2035
[/quote]


TENE asked helped from Rok with the guy (as he was caused problems there) and Rok helped before the actual DoW took place. NSO accepted the guy DESPITE his ongoing wars with TENE and Rok and aided him DESITE the request not to aid a nation that's at war with them.

[mike717]

[quote name='Viking' timestamp='1281546086' post='2411219']
The line of thinking on my side that's starting to spread is it's ok to aid people at war with an established alliance, and I hope it gains traction. I'm just itching to start aiding rogues or unaligneds at war with alliances I don't favor, because it's apparently no big deal.

Your side needs to re-examine the thinking behind what you are arguing, because one day it might bite someone in the $@!. Again.
[/quote]


1) alliance level stuff is (admittedly) a completely different animal, than what i was talking about, which is a tech raid.
2) i wasn't aware i had a "side"
3) keep in mind that i think this whole war asinine. Heft shouldn't have ordered the aid, Hoo shouldn't have had such an itchy trigger finger, threats are to be taken seriously, people should have been notified sooner, everyone was in a hurry to whip out their junk for a measuring contest, etc etc etc. I understand perfectly well why and how it happened, I also think it's dumb.

[memoryproblems]

[quote name='Viking' timestamp='1281546532' post='2411225']
Admitting a member with active wars is right up there with aiding people with active wars against established alliances, as far as things frowned upon historically go. We've had a bit of a paradigm shift the past few days and suddenly both are ok because why? NSO said so?

Then it's clearly ok to launch a war over the aid because Hoo said so.

-also, good to see you didn't quit after the Karma War like you said you were going to when I bill locked you. I'd hate to have a nation quitting being on my conscience.
[/quote]

NSO accepts members like these all the time, usually diplomacy prevails and they are able to work out a favorable agreement with other alliances.

Sedrick had applied to and had been accepted by NSO, and he was provided with protection as any other member. Rok decided that it didn't matter if he was a member of NSO or not and attacked him without really attempting much of any diplomacy. At least they could have tried diplomacy, and seen if NSO would have 1) expelled Sedrick or 2) given toe ok to attack him, and had that not worked, then they could have gone ahead with attacking Sedrick anyway.

Obviously thats not the way it happened, because Hoo's enjoying power too much and he sees no reason for any compromise or to actually try diplomacy because he's got people like GOD to back up his stupidity.

If somebody attacked a member of my alliance without talking to me about it, whether they had a valid reason or not, I would be upset too.'

btw, you never bill-locked me, I ended Karma with around 12 million dollars.

[SpacingOutMan]

[quote name='uaciaut' timestamp='1281546692' post='2411229']
TENE asked helped from Rok with the guy (as he was caused problems there) and Rok helped before the actual DoW took place. NSO accepted the guy DESPITE his ongoing wars with TENE and Rok and aided him DESITE the request not to aid a nation that's at war with them.
[/quote]

Look, mate, this is all fine and dandy, but in this here thread, you need substance to back it up. Trust me, I believe you (this is how it was essentially explained to me), but you can't convert an Atheist unless Jesus Christ walks up to him and kicks him in the groin; so in retrospect, you won't convince anybody unless you take a bunch of logs and throw it at [i]their[/i] groins. It'll catch their attention, I promise.

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1281546664' post='2411227']
I don't see how giving a new member aid makes him more important than long standing members, its pretty standard to give aid to new members who need it and those who are under attack. I'm not sure who this member is they let go it alone you refer to, but if he chose to go it alone then it makes sense. I think those who declared on a member of NSO while he was still a member are clearly the aggressors here. If those who declared on a member of NSO weren't looking for a war this could of been avoided easily by being diplomatic about whatever grievances they had with this new NSO member rather than just attacking.

I think NSO's response is very justified and it was RoK spitting in NSO's face by attacking a member of NSO without trying diplomacy first.
[/quote]
Well, seeing that TENE is a protectorate of Rok and TENE was ALREADY at war prior to Sedric joining NSO I fail to see how it was attacking a NSO member, the wars did exist prior to his joining.

You have to admit, letting a long standing member go it alone while going ape !@#$ for a brand new member is quite fishy. But then again, it is NSO so, never sniff a gift fish.

[Rayvon]

[quote name='uaciaut' timestamp='1281546692' post='2411229']
TENE asked helped from Rok with the guy (as he was caused problems there) and Rok helped before the actual DoW took place. NSO accepted the guy DESPITE his ongoing wars with TENE and Rok and aided him DESITE the request not to aid a nation that's at war with them.
[/quote]

And they attacked him DESPITE forgetting to talk to us first while he was on our AA. The aid discussion came after he sent his fire teams in on our AA and we approached him saying 'Hey - he's under our protection unless you can give us evidence'

[Jrenster]

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1281546043' post='2411217']
Well, I tend to check the aid screens prior to launching a raid, you know doing a little back ground investigation. Something NSO would have benefited from greatly.
The thing is, NSO selectively picks and chooses who they will intervene for, which makes it all the more curious as to why they would set out to poke RoK to begin with.

Just to avoid the NSO always protects it's members rants.


Not one NSO nation attacked me, not one NSO .gov member talked with me or \m/ .gov
It was like it didn't happen.

So once again, what was NSO motivation to spit on Hoo?
[/quote]

To clarify, I informed everyone that it was alright and approved by me. LintWad was cool with it, so there was no need to talk with anyone. We don't pick and choose those we intervene for. In fact, we didn't intervene in anything in this case; at least when we accepted him. I believe it was Fark and RoK that came us. Trust me, we didn't purposely do this to poke at RoK. We've accepted people on ZI lists a million times before. Jake Liebenow and Fernando are just a couple of names at the top of my head.

[SpacingOutMan]

[quote name='mike717' timestamp='1281546767' post='2411230']
3) keep in mind that i think this whole war asinine. Heft shouldn't have ordered the aid, Hoo shouldn't have had such an itchy trigger finger, threats are to be taken seriously, people should have been notified sooner, everyone was in a hurry to whip out their junk for a measuring contest, etc etc etc. I understand perfectly well why and how it happened, I also think it's dumb.
[/quote]

Oh God, logic, somebody actually has it. Thank you sir.

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='mike717' timestamp='1281546767' post='2411230']
1) alliance level stuff is (admittedly) a completely different animal, than what i was talking about, which is a tech raid.
2) i wasn't aware i had a "side"
[b]3) keep in mind that i think this whole war asinine. Heft shouldn't have ordered the aid, Hoo shouldn't have had such an itchy trigger finger, threats are to be taken seriously, people should have been notified sooner, everyone was in a hurry to whip out their junk for a measuring contest, etc etc etc. I understand perfectly well why and how it happened, I also think it's dumb.
[/quote][/b]
This I will agree with whole heartedly

[Johnny Apocalypse]

[quote name='memoryproblems' timestamp='1281546820' post='2411232']
NSO accepts members like these all the time, usually diplomacy prevails and they are able to work out a favorable agreement with other alliances.
[/quote]

aiding the said member after RoK requested that they not do that is real good diplomacy.

[uaciaut]

[quote name='SpacingOutMan' timestamp='1281546853' post='2411234']
Look, mate, this is all fine and dandy, but in this here thread, you need substance to back it up. Trust me, I believe you (this is how it was essentially explained to me), but you can't convert an Atheist unless Jesus Christ walks up to him and kicks him in the groin; so in retrospect, you won't convince anybody unless you take a bunch of logs and throw it at [i]their[/i] groins. It'll catch their attention, I promise.
[/quote]


Back what up? Rok's dow was posted after the aid, Hoo's logs with Heft make it pretty obvious that the aid went in first.

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='Jrenster' timestamp='1281546986' post='2411239']
To clarify, I informed everyone that it was alright and approved by me. LintWad was cool with it, so there was no need to talk with anyone. We don't pick and choose those we intervene for. In fact, we didn't intervene in anything in this case; at least when we accepted him. I believe it was Fark and RoK that came us. Trust me, we didn't purposely do this to poke at RoK. We've accepted people on ZI lists a million times before. Jake Liebenow and Fernando are just a couple of names at the top of my head.
[/quote]
Here is the thing though, did you aid Fernando while we had a ZI sentence on him? He was a member while we were ZI'ing him, no?

[R&R-Viking]

[quote name='mike717' timestamp='1281546767' post='2411230']
1) alliance level stuff is (admittedly) a completely different animal, than what i was talking about, which is a tech raid.
2) i wasn't aware i had a "side"
3) keep in mind that i think this whole war asinine. Heft shouldn't have ordered the aid, Hoo shouldn't have had such an itchy trigger finger, threats are to be taken seriously, people should have been notified sooner, everyone was in a hurry to whip out their junk for a measuring contest, etc etc etc. I understand perfectly well why and how it happened, I also think it's dumb.
[/quote]

First, let me apologize for painting you into a side. I hate when people do it to me, that was a mistake on my part. To clarify, I mean people who disagree with the historical precedent of not aiding someone at war with an alliance. This started before the nation in question was a NSO member. He brought baggage to the NSO and as such it was up to NSO to be more diplomatic.

If I was in Hoo's position I probably wouldn't have done the same thing, but his reputation is well known and this all could have been avoided if Heft didn't order aid. That's historically an act of war, and while he was more quick to exercise the military option than I would have been, he was completely justified in my opinion.

[memoryproblems]

[quote name='Johnny Apocalypse' timestamp='1281547094' post='2411244']
aiding the said member after RoK requested that they not do that is real good diplomacy.
[/quote]

Nor is attacking a member of an alliance without first getting it cleared by that particular alliance, or at least talking to them. Could have all been avoided if Rok hadn't felt the need to be arrogant and spit in NSO's face by attacking Sedrick without giving NSO the information they'd requested, but of course Rok wouldn't want that, not when Hoo feels he can get away with anything because of all the crap alliances that his crap alliance is allied to.

Edited August 11, 2010 by memoryproblems

[SpacingOutMan]

[quote name='uaciaut' timestamp='1281547100' post='2411245']
Back what up? Rok's dow was posted after the aid, Hoo's logs with Heft make it pretty obvious that the aid went in first.
[/quote]

We gave them a steak dinner, they demand a three course meal. That's what I'm getting at.

[uaciaut]

[quote name='mike717' timestamp='1281546767' post='2411230']

3) keep in mind that i think this whole war asinine. Heft shouldn't have ordered the aid, Hoo shouldn't have had such an itchy trigger finger, threats are to be taken seriously, people should have been notified sooner, everyone was in a hurry to whip out their junk for a measuring contest, etc etc etc. I understand perfectly well why and how it happened, I also think it's dumb.
[/quote]


It's the type of attitude NSO had since it was born and i can imagne plenty of times their allies bailed them out. I commend Rok for having an itchy trigger here. Actually this alone may be enough to make me forgive all the wrongs Rok ever did against us in the far far past. Hmmmm

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='memoryproblems' timestamp='1281547251' post='2411250']
Nor is attacking a member of an alliance without first getting it cleared by that particular alliance. Could have all been avoided if Rok hadn't felt the need to be arrogant and spit in NSO's face by attacking Sedrick without giving NSO the information they'd requested, but of course Rok wouldn't want that, not when Hoo feels he can get away with anything because of all the crap alliances that his crap alliance is allied to.
[/quote]
Sedric was all ready being attacked prior to joining the NSO, does that point deceive you?

[Jrenster]

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1281547110' post='2411246']
Here is the thing though, did you aid Fernando while we had a ZI sentence on him? He was a member while we were ZI'ing him, no?
[/quote]

I know what you're saying, but I'm just pointing out that we don't pick and choose. There were circumstances when you dueled me, and there were circumstances that were resolved diplomatically when we accepted Fernando.

[Johnny Apocalypse]

[quote name='memoryproblems' timestamp='1281547251' post='2411250']
Nor is attacking a member of an alliance without first getting it cleared by that particular alliance. Could have all been avoided if Rok hadn't felt the need to be arrogant and spit in NSO's face by attacking Sedrick without giving NSO the information they'd requested, but of course Rok wouldn't want that, not when Hoo feels he can get away with anything because of all the crap alliances that his crap alliance is allied to.
[/quote]

no, im pretty sure the issue is still RoK asking NSO not to aid the guy, and NSO doing it anyway

but haha yeah sure whatever you say [img]http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff195/CommisarGaunt/emot-thumbsup.gif[/img]

[memoryproblems]

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1281547321' post='2411254']
Sedric was all ready being attacked prior to joining the NSO, does that point deceive you?
[/quote]

Well somewhat, he was attacking the TENE nation previously, but Rok sent several nations to attack his nation after he had been admitted as a member of NSO. What Rok could have done was talked to NSO, given them the information they wanted and seen where that had gone and either gotten him expelled or found some other solution to this situation.

[memoryproblems]

[quote name='Johnny Apocalypse' timestamp='1281547434' post='2411256']
no, im pretty sure the issue is still RoK asking NSO not to aid the guy, and NSO doing it anyway

but haha yeah sure whatever you say [img]http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff195/CommisarGaunt/emot-thumbsup.gif[/img]
[/quote]

Rok attacking a member of NSO without talking to them about it is as much of an act of war as sending aid to a nation at war with another alliance, I would have been angry and sent aid to Sedrick if I had been in NSO's shoes as well.

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='Jrenster' timestamp='1281547386' post='2411255']
I know what you're saying, but I'm just pointing out that we don't pick and choose. There were circumstances when you dueled me, and there were circumstances that were resolved diplomatically when we accepted Fernando.
[/quote]
I hear ya, seems to me a easy way to end all the drama would be along these lines.
Yes RoK can be war mongering (It's why we love em so)
Yes NSO screwed the pooch aiding Sedric
Yes this war is dumb
Everyone could go home.

The E-Lawyering on this has been just stellar.