Ragnarok Declaration of War

[Hadrian]

[quote name='Alfred von Tirpitz' timestamp='1282036486' post='2419326']
Beats me, i think he got infected by HeroofTime55 and sundry others like him. I hope we dont have to euthanize him.

Mykep, how many times must you be told that sarcasm does not translate well here.
[/quote]

If sarcasm is what your alliance resorts to in a situation like this then everything is clear to me.

[Alfred von Tirpitz]

[quote name='Thunder Strike' timestamp='1282036664' post='2419331']
Aiding someone in a state of war with an alliance is a very solid CB, no matter which way you try and spin it.
[/quote]

But dont you know, you have to give 5 chances to diplomacy at the very least. It is sort of written someplace, or so i think based on the "Not Enough Diplomacy" crowd's words. I mean, who the hell gave you the right to get offended when someone does exactly what you tell them would be a deal breaker, who the hell told you that it is not OK to run with an obvious declaration of intent to go to war. Sure, you told them that it would be leading to war, so frickin what man! You should have kept on talking to them, give them easier and easier stuff, after all, you owe it to them man!.


[quote name='Hadrian' timestamp='1282036797' post='2419335']
If sarcasm is what your alliance resorts to in a situation like this then everything is clear to me.
[/quote]

What pray would that clarity be? Apart from people being sarcastic here and now? Did some blinding ray of light/knowledge regarding Ragnarok emanate from this? Please do share.

Edited August 17, 2010 by Alfred von Tirpitz

[Hadrian]

[quote name='Thunder Strike' timestamp='1282036664' post='2419331']
They didn't, they offered NSO a way out.
Instead NSO choose the action that led to war. NSO only have themselves to blame for sending that aid, and it was the trigger for the war.

Aiding someone in a state of war with an alliance is a very solid CB, no matter which way you try and spin it.
[/quote]

Really, how many options do you think NSO had? Based on the information they had at hand, that is?

Also, in a state of war?! The guy's a rogue, not even a nuclear-equipped one at that. Hardly worth going to war over.

Another thing I find utterly amusing is that three of RoK's allies decided to jump in. Were you really that scared of the Sith?

[Thunder Strike]

[quote name='Hadrian' timestamp='1282037080' post='2419340']
Really, how many options do you think NSO had? Based on the information they had at hand, that is?

Also, in a state of war?! The guy's a rogue, not even a nuclear-equipped one at that. Hardly worth going to war over.

Another thing I find utterly amusing is that three of RoK's allies decided to jump in. Were you really that scared of the Sith?
[/quote]

Hoo knows the value of sharing, although really he should have shared some more and let even more allies in on the action.

[Acca Dacca]

[quote name='Hadrian' timestamp='1282036797' post='2419335']
If sarcasm is what your alliance resorts to in a situation like this then everything is clear to me.
[/quote]

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAH

Have you seen the last 90 pages? What am I supposed to do at this point? I have people like you who wont even take a gander at what is actually going on and wont even take the time out to learn the story when I make my way to you through queries and PMs. There was a lovely, sensible argument made over yonder (World Affairs)

I've repeated this story 30 times in 5 different threads, I've done some crappy propaganda, and I finally got nuked (thanks RV). I'm sailing my way through the end of this thread and war by piggybacking on the lulz you call 'facts.' I have to say that everyone in this thread is now dumber for having looked at it.

[img]http://www.maniacworld.com/everyone-is-now-dumber.jpg[/img]

I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

May it also be noted that if you REALLY cant look through the last 90 pages, with the argument made every 5 pages, then dont post. Think it, just dont put your avatar next to it. If you have any questions, come hither, I bare the truth and I shall guide thee to our point of view. The view of the God of CN.

Also, alcohol shall play a part in all further arguments made in this thread. Cheers.

[Hadrian]

[quote name='Thunder Strike' timestamp='1282037481' post='2419345']
Hoo knows the value of sharing, although really he should have shared some more and let even more allies in on the action.
[/quote]

Bandwagoning ftw, amirite??

[quote name='Acca Dacca' timestamp='1282037581' post='2419348']
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAH

Have you seen the last 90 pages? What am I supposed to do at this point? I have people like you who wont even take a gander at what is actually going on and wont even take the time out to learn the story when I make my way to you through queries and PMs. There was a lovely, sensible argument made over yonder (World Affairs)

I've repeated this story 30 times in 5 different threads, I've done some crappy propaganda, and I finally got nuked (thanks RV). I'm sailing my way through the end of this thread and war by piggybacking on the lulz you call 'facts.' I have to say that everyone in this thread is now dumber for having looked at it.

[img]http://www.maniacworld.com/everyone-is-now-dumber.jpg[/img]

I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

May it also be noted that if you REALLY cant look through the last 90 pages, with the argument made every 5 pages, then dont post. Think it, just dont put your avatar next to it. If you have any questions, come hither, I bare the truth and I shall guide thee to our point of view. The view of the God of CN.

Also, alcohol shall play a part in all further arguments made in this thread. Cheers.
[/quote]

Riiiiiiiiiight. I'm just going to sit right here and continue laughing at you.

Also, please, no alcohol, your brain is already dim enough thanks.

[Thunder Strike]

[quote name='Hadrian' timestamp='1282037973' post='2419352']
Bandwagoning ftw, amirite??



Riiiiiiiiiight. I'm just going to sit right here and continue laughing at you.

Also, please, no alcohol, your brain is already dim enough thanks.
[/quote]

Read the rest of the thread, all your points have been addressed.

[Hadrian]

[quote name='Thunder Strike' timestamp='1282038218' post='2419357']
Read the rest of the thread, all your points have been addressed.
[/quote]

I'd rather not rustle through the previous eighty pages. It would likely bore me close to death.

I'm done here anyway. No point trying to convince anyone when your words fall on blind eyes, right? Peace out, good luck with your war, etc, etc.

[Thunder Strike]

[quote name='Hadrian' timestamp='1282038741' post='2419371']
No point trying to convince anyone when your words fall on blind eyes, right?
[/quote]

My thoughts exactly ...

[Tiberious]

[quote name='Rampage3' timestamp='1282015077' post='2418591']
I will agree with you on this one thing: the failure of diplomacy was indeed sad. Imagine my surprise when a rogue that had attacked several TENE nation was brought in by NSO. Instead of simply hitting the rogue, I came to NSO to explain the situation. I expected no issues, especially since every member of the Sith government was familiar to me; indeed, our attempts at diplomacy when we were both tied to Polaris gave me what was apparently a false sense of confidence in being able to easily explain the issue and peacefully resolve the Sedrick situation with Sith gov.

An hour and a half later, when I had been passed around from gov member to gov member and when it was made apparent that Sedrick's claims needed no proof (as an NSO member of course) but our claims would need apparently overwhelming proof (which we had in the war screens, and they still dismissed it), that there would be some issue.

Even then, when Van Hoo went to speak with NSO, I was of the opinion that surely the Sith would work with us. Instead they failed to believe us yet again, to believe Hoo when he CLEARLY explained what he wanted to peace out Sedrick and what would spark war with Ragnarok. At this point, the Sith had several options. They picked the option that GUARANTEED war, which surprised the hell out of me. But in retrospect, I should not have been surprised. They had not believed a thing we'd said all night, this was no different. Perhaps in the future they will believe us.

Once again, I see that certain people are enamored of the idea that we should wait until they are satisfied with our diplomacy attempts before war. I believe that two reasonable people can disagree on the time for war. But in our case, if Hoo tells you that A will get you war and you do A, you will get war. We defended our protectorate, we did what we said we would do at every turn, we were consistent and we were correct in our initial assessment of Sedrick. You say we are warmongers; I disagree. I say that at Ragnarok we do not shy away from war.
[/quote]


Good Sir,

Never once did I say that RoK was warmongers, this is my point exactly. RoK and friends are putting words in peoples mouths that are not there, if you look at what I said, I offer my ideas on why this war went off and expressed my sadness over a blatant failure to diplomatic procedures. I did not call you warmongers, if anything I gave reasons you went to war, though they might not be reasons you or yours would like to accept or acknowledge.

My main focus was on the lack of diplomacy. I am no where as new as my nation would lead you to believe. I know what its like. I've been frustrated to the point I wanted to say to hell with it, lets attack but I didn't. I took a rest and the next day went at it again. You claim you spoke to them for an hour and a half. I have spent more time than that with more stubborn alliances government than even the NSO can offer. There comes a time when you chalk it up to a bad day and continue it on the next. I agree there comes a point in some diplomatic issues that you have to decide that there is no solution other than force but to come to that conclusion within a day, which is usually not even enough time for the defending alliance to fully discuss the charges brought upon them, is ludicrous. Planet Bob moves at a slow pace at times and anyone in diplomacy should realize this and deal with it.

The fact that you say that the war was ENTIRELY up to them is a statement that is in its entirety false. You declared, you attacked, therefore the war was in your hands. Though they did not do what you wanted them too gives you reason and cause, but does not give you the option of claiming they were 100% to blame for this war. In fact I'll go a step further and say, yes the way you was treated was wrong. I understand yours and Hoo's frustration, I've been there. However though it was wrong, it should not have deterred you from giving it another shot. Diplomatic procedures in CN are the most grueling and frustrating part of this game, far more difficult at times than war. Its evident that Hoo and yourself does not have the stomach for such endeavors and should admit it, not dance away from the fact. I offer a friendly suggestion, after this war take a look at your FA and adjust it. Find someone who can take the aggravation of days of negotiating and still press forward. Someone who will make strides diplomatically and keep Hoo's finger off the button of war.

[Tautology]

[quote name='Tiberious' timestamp='1282052129' post='2419536']
Never once did I say that RoK was warmongers, ...[/quote]
I expect the confusion arose because PotFace (your boss in BCom?) used it ad nauseam. He used "war-monger" or "war-mongering" 6 times in [url=http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=90345&view=findpost&p=2418264]this single post[/url].

[quote]snip[/quote]
Are you and PotFace trying a good cop-bad cop routine? If so, I like it.

[PotFace]

[quote name='Tautology' timestamp='1282053716' post='2419563']
I expect the confusion arose because PotFace (your boss in BCom?) used it ad nauseam. He used "war-monger" or "war-mongering" 6 times in [url=http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=90345&view=findpost&p=2418264]this single post[/url].


Are you and PotFace trying a good cop-bad cop routine? If so, I like it.
[/quote]



Tautology.... aren't you RoK guys allowed to have your own opinions over there? Do you normally associate opinions with alliances like that? How pathetic.

[Tautology]

Does that mean you're not going to do good cop-bad cop?

[PotFace]

[quote name='Tautology' timestamp='1282054780' post='2419577']
Does that mean you're not going to do good cop-bad cop?
[/quote]


That's exactly what that means. You see, in other alliances, members are actually entitled to have their own opinions. And the fact that you would have assumed otherwise in the first place definitely goes to show the thought-process involved when someone said "hey, let's declare on NSO".

[Tautology]

That's better. You're getting into character now. I knew that's what it was going to be.

[PotFace]

[quote name='Tautology' timestamp='1282055889' post='2419595']
That's better. You're getting into character now. I knew that's what it was going to be.
[/quote]

Well, Tautology, if I was a part of RoK's senior leadership, I'd be worrying about more important things right now. As this war drags on, there's going to be an increasing disgust in the community for what you guys have done. If I were you, I'd be figuring out a way to deal with that instead of commenting on my character. But you know, that's just me.

[Hiro Nakara]

Ohh the disgust of smashing NSO. Terrible Terrible alliance Rok and company are................nah only joking, keep on hammering them guys.

[lightningjim]

I quit reading for a few days and come back to see some new faces yet see the same arguments. Keep it up, guys. Keep beating those dead horses.

Edited August 17, 2010 by lightningjim

[Bob Janova]

Yeah I've been away for the weekend and was somewhat surprised to come back 20 pages later with a carbon copy of the thread that was there before I left. Particularly considering there isn't really anything to argue about. NSO and their friends would be better advised to put their effort into getting peace rather than trying to argue that black is white in these threads.

[Ashoka the Great]

[quote name='PotFace' timestamp='1282056370' post='2419600']As this war drags on, there's going to be an increasing disgust in the community for what you guys have done. [/quote]

People who support the NSO will continue to do so. Same with those who support RoK.

There will be no 'increasing disgust', merely different people from the same set of alliances doing the same kind of posturing.

Sorry to disappoint.

[Jeb the Wise]

[quote name='Hadrian' timestamp='1282026413' post='2419038']
Why you continue to deny anything is beyond me.

Your CB is one of the flimsiest that has ever existed. Let me know when you've finally accepted that and moved on to lower standards.
[/quote]

lol. I on the the other hand find the CB too be good, if not perfect. However, considering the Sith have lost half their NS and no one is coming to their aid, Justice has been done. I don't know what's going on in the back channels, but save for some serious ego $@!-hattery on any alliance's part, it's time for white peace is it not?

I really don't think Rok and friends are trying to annihilate the sith. They're just giving them a good and deserved $@! whoopin'

[Bob Janova]

There won't be 'increasing disgust' at what they've (we've?) done so far. But if they (or we) drag on the war excessively or deliver unreasonably harsh peace terms (both of those things are rather subjective of course) then that will be something to be disgusted about. (If it's NSO who are being unreasonable, as they were in Bipolar with their unwillingness to 'surrender' at all, then obviously that's not our fault and I hope public opinion would see that.) It still won't change the fact that the war was justified in the beginning.

[Jrenster]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1282067452' post='2419931']
There won't be 'increasing disgust' at what they've (we've?) done so far. But if they (or we) drag on the war excessively or deliver unreasonably harsh peace terms (both of those things are rather subjective of course) then that will be something to be disgusted about. (If it's NSO who are being unreasonable, as they were in Bipolar with their unwillingness to 'surrender' at all, then obviously that's not our fault and I hope public opinion would see that.) It still won't change the fact that the war was justified in the beginning.
[/quote]

I do not think we're the ones being unreasonable seeing as how we've been in negotiations seeking a satisfactory ending to this war since day one.

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='Hadrian' timestamp='1282029760' post='2419175']
A war over, technically speaking, six million in aid?

I think not.
[/quote]

When it is too much? 6 mil? 9 mil? 25 mil? 50 mil? 100mil? When are we officially looking at war by proxy? Any amount is too much, that could have been 6$ and I'd still say it was DoW worthy because it is the intent of supporting a war against an alliance that is the crime, not the volume of the aid package.

[quote name='shilo' timestamp='1282033800' post='2419271']
Applicant AAs, at least what I heard, are under the protection of the alliance they belong to. So even if NSO had had an "NSO applicant" AA, when RoK decided to attack the nation there without getting NSO to release it's protection from that particular nation, we're back to square one: RoK starting a war with NSO without trying to solve the issue of the 4k NS nation diplomatically as NSO tried
[/quote]

Which shields the prospective member from [i]new[/i] conflicts while he sorts the old one. Think of the applicant AA as a half way house. Then stop spinning quite so hard and add in some common sense and you'll stop looking so silly.


[quote]It's completely irrelevant. Accepting a nation doesn't mean you inherit all the baggage,[/quote]

No really, [i]Yes it does[/i]. That is why you negotiate their way off the his lists before accepting them and offering them support.

[quote]And not in the Hoo sense à la "We will violate your sovereignty soon, if you do something about it, you started a war" [/quote]

Hey Dr Spin, he was already at war before going to NSO, there's no violation of NSO sovereignty. In fact the DoW recognized it. NSO had every right to accept whoever they wanted, and Hoo agreed. Thats why the whole alliance bought it and not the one rogue.


[quote]but in the "ok, we got a nation there that did this and that, here's proof, now what's your take"
While NSO was still hoping to hear about that proof, and, with hindsight - to their great disadvantage - thought that when Hoo was simply threatening NSO, meant he was trying to talk to them in an odd manner, plans to assault NSO had been executed the minute RoK attacked the nation.
[/quote]

So knowing they needed more facts before they could make an informed decision, NSO instead jumped the gun and provoked a war. Bravo, so you argue they are just stupid and not malicious. That's hardly an upside.

[quote]
So what you are telling me is that if I warn you of something really dumb and aggressive that I will do to you in the near future, that warning gives me the right to do it?
[/quote]

If you do something really dumb and aggressive to my alliance (like say aiding a rogue at war with me after we just told you not to) yea I'll have you rolled for it.

[quote name='Ashoka the Great' timestamp='1282065081' post='2419844']
People who support the NSO will continue to do so. Same with those who support RoK.

There will be no 'increasing disgust', merely different people from the same set of alliances doing the same kind of posturing.

Sorry to disappoint.
[/quote]

Hes got it right, if you look carefully at AA's while posting you might notice that our 'debate' is quite firmly divided down political lines. Its why it goes nowhere.

[quote name='Jrenster' timestamp='1282067622' post='2419936']
I do not think we're the ones being unreasonable seeing as how we've been in negotiations seeking a satisfactory ending to this war since day one.
[/quote]

Well of course you have, it was clear almost right away how screwed you were, its easy to try and seek a peaceful and early end to a conflict you provoked and then started losing.

That is not a virtue on your part, it is akin to picking a fight and then begging the other guy not to kick your face in once you come to the belated realization you've gone too far.

[Hob Dobson]

[quote name='Jeb the Wise' timestamp='1282067166' post='2419925']
lol. I on the the other hand find the CB too be good, if not perfect. However, considering the Sith have lost half their NS and no one is coming to their aid, Justice has been done. [/quote]

I could be mistaken, but I believe that NSO asked their allies not to take direct part in this conflict.