Ragnarok Declaration of War

[R&R-Viking]

[quote name='PotFace' timestamp='1281649499' post='2413295']Part of being a part of the Karma coalition was to fight against those types of practices. It was inherently opposed to hegemony. So, somewhere, somebody has lost some integrity here. What I want to know, is, who?[/quote]

Half of Karma was screaming at the other half for being weak during the entirety of that war. Since you are defending the other side, I hope you don't mind if I paint you the same as Hegemony, right?

[PotFace]

[quote name='Viking' timestamp='1281653229' post='2413371']
Half of Karma was screaming at the other half for being weak during the entirety of that war. Since you are defending the other side, I hope you don't mind if I paint you the same as Hegemony, right?
[/quote]


Just so that I'm clear on what you're saying, could you elaborate on this a bit more? Weak vs. strong... 'cause it seems to me that you're either opposed to hegemony or you're not. See, where everyone seems to be going wrong is that they've come to the habit of taking the name "Hegemony" and sticking it to an alliance. This may have been appropriate prior to the Karma War, but things change over time.

"[i]Hegemony[/i]" is an idea. It's a practice. You can come out and preach against it all night and day, but then when you do something [i]hegemonic[/i], and you stand your grounds on it, that [i]makes[/i] you hegemonic. It's very clear to all of us here I think that while the CB is a valid CB, the fact that a DoW was posted anyway over something so trivial goes to show hegemony in action.

I'm against hegemony, no matter who practices it. Where do [i]you[/i] stand, exactly?

[Ogaden]

[quote name='Zombie Glaucon' timestamp='1281640332' post='2413016']
I'll be changing DEFCON levels on VE nations all next week. Please confirm that this will not be viewed as an aggressive act.

I'd hate to start a war or something.
[/quote]

I want my DEFCON changed, why does VE always get all the fun

[Van Hoo III]

[quote name='James Dahl' timestamp='1281653819' post='2413381']
I want my DEFCON changed, why does VE always get all the fun
[/quote]


I'll change your DEFCON, tiger.

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='NoFish' timestamp='1281652841' post='2413364']
Whether Sedrick's attack on TENE was justified or not is entirely irrelevant. NSO decided to back him in his war against TENE and Rok, thus committing an act of war against those alliances.
[/quote]
RoK committed an act of war on NSO by attacking Sedrick without even explaining the situation to NSO.

Sedrick was at war with TENE for several days, but only upon joining NSO was he attacked. Why didn't RoK attack him before?

NSO had every right to aid Sedrick against the RoK attack... Unfortunately, the act was invalidated because it was also aiding his war against TENE. That is the point I'm trying to make. An act of war was committed against TENE, but not against RoK.

Before we can discuss opinion on whether or not RoK was justified, we must first get the facts straight.

(And just because RoK [i]considers[/i] it an act of war against them, does not mean it actually is. It only means that their policy is to treat it with the same weight as if an act of war was committed.)

[agafaba]

[quote name='Mr Damsky' timestamp='1281651162' post='2413334']
The difference is you're not an idiot (I hope). I'd hope you know that spying on someone is bad. However I doubt this TENE nation did.

However one failed Defcon change level does not require attacks on multiple people. It's roguery plain and simple.
[/quote]

Ignorance has never been an acceptable excuse. How would we know if we were declared on or not if we had to first determine if the offender was smart enough to understand his actions?
He did go overboard by declaring on multiple people in retaliation, but I know lots of people that would do so because they would see it as an alliance wide action.

[R&R-Viking]

[quote name='PotFace' timestamp='1281653743' post='2413379']
Just so that I'm clear on what you're saying, could you elaborate on this a bit more? Weak vs. strong... 'cause it seems to me that you're either opposed to hegemony or you're not. See, where everyone seems to be going wrong is that they've come to the habit of taking the name "Hegemony" and sticking it to an alliance. This may have been appropriate prior to the Karma War, but things change over time.

"[i]Hegemony[/i]" is an idea. It's a practice. You can come out and preach against it all night and day, but then when you do something [i]hegemonic[/i], and you stand your grounds on it, that [i]makes[/i] you hegemonic. It's very clear to all of us here I think that while the CB is a valid CB, the fact that a DoW was posted anyway over something so trivial goes to show hegemony in action.

I'm against hegemony, no matter who practices it. Where do [i]you[/i] stand, exactly?
[/quote]

I hated the Hegemony because they used their tactics against my friends, not because of their tactics. Try again.

[NoFish]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281654621' post='2413398']
RoK committed an act of war on NSO by attacking Sedrick without even explaining the situation to NSO.

Sedrick was at war with TENE for several days, but only upon joining NSO was he attacked. Why didn't RoK attack him before?

NSO had every right to aid Sedrick against the RoK attack... Unfortunately, the act was invalidated because it was also aiding his war against TENE. That is the point I'm trying to make. An act of war was committed against TENE, but not against RoK.

Before we can discuss opinion on whether or not RoK was justified, we must first get the facts straight.

(And just because RoK [i]considers[/i] it an act of war against them, does not mean it actually is. It only means that their policy is to treat it with the same weight as if an act of war was committed.)
[/quote]
So Rok commited an act of war by defending their protectorate from attack? Okay, got it.

[PotFace]

[quote name='Viking' timestamp='1281657167' post='2413442']
I hated the Hegemony because they used their tactics against my friends, not because of their tactics. Try again.
[/quote]


Oh, okay, just making sure. You hate THE Hegemony, whereas I just hate the [i]practice[/i] of hegemony. You sir, just lost the right to complain about hegemonic practice as an idea. Even if it's against your friends.

[kevin32891]

[quote name='Viking' timestamp='1281657167' post='2413442']
I hated the Hegemony because they used their tactics against my friends, not because of their tactics. Try again.
[/quote]
Ahhhh. At last.... They see.

[R&R-Viking]

[quote name='PotFace' timestamp='1281658678' post='2413475']
Oh, okay, just making sure. You hate THE Hegemony, whereas I just hate the [i]practice[/i] of hegemony. You sir, just lost the right to complain about hegemonic practice as an idea. Even if it's against your friends.
[/quote]

I don't claim I hate the practices, I hate the people.

You can tell me I can't do something all you want, I guess.

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='NoFish' timestamp='1281658524' post='2413473']
So Rok commited an act of war by defending their protectorate from attack? Okay, got it.
[/quote]
In waiting until NSO accepted him as a member, in an incident which TENE probably could have handled themselves, and not informing NSO ahead of time (this last one being key), yes, yes they did.

Edited August 13, 2010 by HeroofTime55

[Williambonney]

[quote name='Viking' timestamp='1281659661' post='2413492']
I don't claim I hate the practices, I hate the people.

You can tell me I can't do something all you want, I guess.
[/quote]


The same people you barely even know? Or perhaps mindlessly believing what propaganda tells you to believe? Well I suppose ignorance can be bliss.

[PotFace]

[quote name='Viking' timestamp='1281657167' post='2413442']
I hated the Hegemony because they used their tactics against my friends, [b]not because of their tactics[/b]. Try again.
[/quote]
[quote name='Viking' timestamp='1281659661' post='2413492']
I don't claim I hate the practices, I hate the people.
[/quote]




[quote name='Viking' timestamp='1281659661' post='2413492']
You can tell me I can't do something all you want, I guess.
[/quote]


Great. Let's get started. You can't make an effective argument.

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281660433' post='2413500']
In waiting until NSO accepted him as a member, in an incident which TENE probably could have handled themselves, and not informing NSO ahead of time (this last one being key), yes, yes they did.
[/quote]
That is the most twisted logic I think I have ever read.

[PotFace]

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1281661147' post='2413531']
That is the most twisted logic I think I have ever read.
[/quote]


I dunno. If I was Hoo, I would have at least let TENE post the DoW. Truly, the only logic that I see in any of this is the fact that the CB is valid - or at least I'm pretty sure it is. Everything surrounding it though, is pretty twisted too.

[Ashoka the Great]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281654621' post='2413398']An act of war was committed against TENE, but not against RoK.[/quote]

Do you remember how protectorates work? An act of war against a protectorate is an act of war against the protector. This is not some 'crazy new idea' that's just being tried for the first time in the history of Planet Bob.

Wow....the fact that this needs to be explained to you is just....

You've said a lot of incredibly stupid things in this thread, but I think we have a winner.

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='PotFace' timestamp='1281661462' post='2413546']
I dunno. If I was Hoo, I would have at least let TENE post the DoW. Truly, the only logic that I see in any of this is the fact that the CB is valid - or at least I'm pretty sure it is. Everything surrounding it though, is pretty twisted too.
[/quote]
Well, oddly, I agree with what you have said here.

[Valtamdraugr]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281651894' post='2413350']
I would disagree. The spy attack indicates aggression, at the very least a desire to harm him which they are willing to act out on. [b]To brush off an attack just because it did little real harm when it clearly shows malice on the part of the offender, is wrong.[/b] The nation had every right to defend himself, however I would argue that he should have struck only the offending nation.

If you apply the same logic that Heft's action was representative of the whole NSO, however, than Sedrick's attack on TENE as a whole was justified by the same measure. I of course disagree with that assessment, but whatever.
[/quote]
I've bolded this bit because I think it might aptly explain why there was a DoW.

It seems to me that you just argued both sides of the coin. Perhaps I haven't had enough coffee today, but that's how I read it.

[PotFace]

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1281661558' post='2413552']
Well, oddly, I agree with what you have said here.
[/quote]


It's pretty easy... instead of looking at the argument itself, delve in a bit further into the principals that found the argument. Most of us have held RoK to a higher standard, because they've always deserved to be held to a higher standard. I mean, there's some alliances that color in a coloring book and stay in the lines, and then when they say "Hey everybody look at what we did!!", we just pat them on the head and say, "Oooh !! looks like you're growing up !! That's so nice !!". But most of us expect to hear RoK say something like, "I just made straight A's this semester; I now have a PhD".

What we have here, is RoK - with PhD and everything, coming out and convincing us that it opened a coloring book and it actually stayed within the lines. Yes, for those of us who hold RoK in high regard, this is a bit disappointing. And by this analogy, what I'm saying is, yes, just because you have material for a CB doesn't necessarily mean that you should post a DoW. Most of us feel that an alliance with such stature would have been cool enough to not only try negotiating with ALL of NSO's government present at a much better hour of the day, but also to allow TENE to get the glory that was due to it by initiating this war should further diplomatic attempts proven to be unfruitful.

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1281661147' post='2413531']
That is the most twisted logic I think I have ever read.
[/quote]That attacking nations before you contact the alliance to give them a heads up is wrong, is to you twisted logic?

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281664614' post='2413645']
That attacking nations before you contact the alliance to give them a heads up is wrong, is to you twisted logic?
[/quote]
Sedrick was already at war, can't you grasp that?

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Valtamdraugr' timestamp='1281661813' post='2413557']
I've bolded this bit because I think it might aptly explain why there was a DoW.

It seems to me that you just argued both sides of the coin. Perhaps I haven't had enough coffee today, but that's how I read it.
[/quote]If you read the whole post and not just the section you bolded, you would discover that your assessment is incorrect.

Had RoK simply attacked the nations sending aid, or even just attacked Heft, or both, they would be more justified than they are in attacking the whole of NSO. It's still up for debate, considering RoK attacked a NSO member without giving a heads up or a reason, but it definitely would not have been as bad had they taken that course of action.

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1281664772' post='2413650']
Sedrick was already at war, can't you grasp that?
[/quote]Not with RoK he wasn't. As much as you people want to pretend Sedrick was at war with RoK the whole time, he wasn't. He was at war with TENE, until RoK actually attacked him.

RoK should have gone to NSO. They didn't even need to get permission, they just had to go to NSO and say "Hey man, this guy did X, Y, Z bad things to our protectorate, and we're gonna go rough him up a bit." Had NSO not after that point released him to attack, NSO would indeed be accountable for Sedrick's actions anyway. But we'll never know what would have happened because RoK thinks diplomacy is optional, even though the world has always operated by diplomatic principles. Shunning diplomacy has always made an alliance the aggressor, I don't grasp why you people think this scenario is an exception to that rule.

Instead of going to NSO, they simply attacked. In a knee-jerk reaction, Heft sent aid, which would have been OK had the guy not still had active wars with TENE, an oversight by Heft and technically an act of war on TENE. However Sedrick got into his situation is largely irrelevant. The point is to demonstrate that while Heft's actions were, in hindsight, incorrect, it was an easy mistake to make, when you look at it from his perspective.

This in itself doesn't invalidate RoK's cause for war (Their lack of diplomacy after the aid was sent does), it merely illustrates just how hasty, rash, and sudden RoK's actions were.

Edited August 13, 2010 by HeroofTime55

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281664999' post='2413659']
If you read the whole post and not just the section you bolded, you would discover that your assessment is incorrect.

Had RoK simply attacked the nations sending aid, or even just attacked Heft, or both, they would be more justified than they are in attacking the whole of NSO. It's still up for debate, considering RoK attacked a NSO member without giving a heads up or a reason, but it definitely would not have been as bad had they taken that course of action.
[/quote]
Sedrick was in a state of war with RoK prior to joining NSO. NSO does deserve to burn, burn to the ground. Maybe a viceroy is in order.

[Vanilla Napalm]

[quote name='PotFace' timestamp='1281662611' post='2413581']
What we have here, is RoK - with PhD and everything, coming out and convincing us that it opened a coloring book and it actually stayed within the lines. Yes, for those of us who hold RoK in high regard, this is a bit disappointing. And by this analogy, what I'm saying is, yes, just because you have material for a CB doesn't necessarily mean that you should post a DoW.
[/quote]

People seem to have forgotten that NSO was considered controversial in the early part of their existence due to the policies they adopted, that went from lacking diplomatic niceties to being downright antagonistic; recruiting from neutrals, accepting rogues etc etc. It's not particularly suprising that someone would eventually shrug off this presumption that NSO exists on a higher diplomatic threshold and decide to stomp their face in.

NSO actually did practically the exact same thing to RAD roughly a year ago that Rok is doing to NSO today. Strange that they don't see a parallel.

Edited August 13, 2010 by Vanilla Napalm