MHA Announcement

[shilo]

Eternal treaties are doomed to fail, so I guess this should be a lesson to not sign them or other such silly treaties anymore.

As always, opposed to the "but you can't cancel this treaty" or "u r evil cuz u brok da promiz" whining, when a relationship is no longer there, the treaty shouldn't be kept for whatever reasons. Obviously, the relationship was more than broken here, so the logical course was to end it.

Of course, gRAMlins made this not more difficult with their behavior in the past months.


Good for you MHA

[caligula]

[quote name='Bilrow' timestamp='1280704808' post='2397500']
At least with Gremlins they protected them with the threat of a treaty still "on the books" and then cancel the treaty after the threat is over. With us, they just stood to the side and didn't do anything letting the treaty expire due to Surrender Terms.
[/quote]

Yes, I forgot, all alliances wave their soveirgnty after they sign a treaty, especially after the other party to it completely ignores you and decides to tyrannize other alliances.

Edited August 1, 2010 by caligula

[Gamemaster1]

You waited until after the war to cancel the treaty?

Well, best of luck to you.

[shaneprice]

Wow, so much for having a treaty that bound you to the fate of each other "forevermore". The world of Cybernations is indeed changing. I do not yet know if this change is for the better or not, but I have a feeling that we should soon see. I would like to say congratulations to both parties for this...but I just can't. The very act of canceling this treaty defies it's very spirit.

[lebubu]

Regardless of how you feel about Ramirus, abandoning Grämlins now is a pretty !@#$ move.

[Bilrow]

[quote name='caligula' timestamp='1280704959' post='2397506']
Yes, I forgot, all alliances wave their soveirgnty after they sign a treaty, especially after the other party to it completely ignores you and decides to tyrannize [color=red]IRON[/color].
[/quote]


You sure [i]waived[/i] it for Gremlins.

Edited August 1, 2010 by Bilrow

[AndyDe]

[quote name='Bilrow' timestamp='1280704808' post='2397500']
At least with Gremlins they protected them with the threat of a treaty still "on the books" and then cancel the treaty after the threat is over. With us, they just stood to the side and didn't do anything letting the treaty expire due to Surrender Terms.
[/quote]

And that is why Thousands of [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=54921"]Band wagoners[/url] attacked NPO?

[caligula]

[quote name='Bilrow' timestamp='1280705021' post='2397511']
You sure [i]waived[/i] it for Gremlins.
[/quote]

We did the same, we threatened bandwagoners, iirc..
You went to war without telling us anything and expected us to commit suicide with no regard to us whatsoever.

Same result

Edited August 1, 2010 by caligula

[El Hefe]

[quote name='Sandwich Controversy' timestamp='1280703114' post='2397443']
How do you cancel a treaty without a cancellation clause, indeed one that specifically says it cannot be cancelled?
[/quote]

Indeed, this was a question I had myself.

I hope MHA has learned that unbreakable treaties, or year long cancellation clauses do *not* work. I'd be highly disappointed if I saw them make another such mistake.

[Homura]

This proves, once again, that the only reliable tenet of this crazy world is that nothing lasts forever.

[caligula]

[quote name='lebubu' timestamp='1280704991' post='2397509']
Regardless of how you feel about Ramirus, abandoning Grämlins now is a pretty !@#$ move.
[/quote]

Yeah, i know, we should've done it after that whole "We're going to force unconditional surrender on an alliance even though we know they won't accept it," thing. Or after we prevented several attacks on them during that several month long saga. Or after we were told by Gramlin leadership that they didn't care about their ally, only their "principles."

You're right.

[Sal Paradise]

[quote name='caligula' timestamp='1280704959' post='2397506']
Yes, I forgot, all alliances wave their soveirgnty after they sign a treaty, especially after the other party to it completely ignores you and decides to tyrannize other alliances.
[/quote]

They commit themselves to the letter of the treaty, so in a way, they do lose some sovereignty, specifically the sovereignty to not do what the treaty demands of them. Of course, nothing forces an alliance to follow these treaties, other than the court of public opinion. Theoretically, public opinion should consider such unscrupulous alliances as the scum of the Earth, but in practice people always side with their interests and desires. However, those of us with integrity (and we are very few nowadays), do recognize MHA for what it is.

[Edifice]

Why would you cancel *after* you implicitly protect Gramlins while they pull their crazy stunt and make it drag on and on? Either cancel early and make Gramlins' job a lot harder, or stick with them through the war and help them rebuild afterward. This just seems like taking the worst of both worlds.

[Andre27]

I expected a downgrade to a minor treaty such as a NAP or PIAT, but relations between them must have deteriorated even more than i had realized.

Good luck to MHA and The Gramlins

[Triyun]

I wonder which is worse being treatied to MHA or treatied being to Gremlins, either way you both are just awful.

[caligula]

[quote name='Sal Paradise' timestamp='1280705430' post='2397519']
They commit themselves to the letter of the treaty, so in a way, they do lose some sovereignty, specifically the sovereignty to not do what the treaty demands of them. Of course, nothing forces an alliance to follow these treaties, other than the court of public opinion. Theoretically, public opinion should consider such unscrupulous alliances as the scum of the Earth, but in practice people always side with their interests and desires. However, those of us with integrity (and we are very few nowadays), do recognize MHA for what it is.
[/quote]

You are wrong then.
We did not fail the treaty in any aspect other than the eternal part, which was misguided and written in a time when such treaties were thought to be worthwhile and ever lasting, and in the case of the NPO, and now Gre, we have been let down.

In this instance, as the OP states, we do not have the relationship of which this treaty was intended.

Forgive us for handling our own business and not hanging Gre out to dry like other alliances may have.

[Malatose]

[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1280705494' post='2397522']
I wonder which is worse being treatied to MHA or treatied being to Gremlins, either way you both are just awful.
[/quote]

This man speaks the truth.

[Sal Paradise]

[quote name='caligula' timestamp='1280705357' post='2397518']
Yeah, i know, we should've done it after that whole "We're going to force unconditional surrender on an alliance even though we know they won't accept it," thing. Or after we prevented several attacks on them during that several month long saga. Or after we were told by Gramlin leadership that they didn't care about their ally, only their "principles."[/quote]


Ah ha! This is where Gramlins went wrong. They thought discussing principles would resonate with MHA.

Edited August 1, 2010 by Sal Paradise

[Lennox]

Somehow the MHA-NPO treaty comes to mind.

[AnCapistan]

You cowardly fools. Can you honor a treaty with [b]anyone?[/b]

Congrats Gremlins, it will do you well to be rid of this filth.

[caligula]

[quote name='Edifice' timestamp='1280705469' post='2397520']
Why would you cancel *after* you implicitly protect Gramlins while they pull their crazy stunt and make it drag on and on? Either cancel early and make Gramlins' job a lot harder, or stick with them through the war and help them rebuild afterward. This just seems like taking the worst of both worlds.
[/quote]

You have no idea what we've done for them in the meantime.

[Sulmar]

Third time's the charm, I hear.

Edited August 1, 2010 by Sulmar

[iamthey]

In hindsight MHA probably should have just waited for gre to disband, won't be that much longer.

Also MHA thank you for now violating two major treaties.

Edited August 1, 2010 by iamthey

[Sal Paradise]

[quote name='caligula' timestamp='1280705578' post='2397524']
We did not fail the treaty in any aspect [b]other than the eternal part[/b],[/quote]

Yeah, that's the point of all the arguments here. Glad you could join us.

[caligula]

[quote name='Sal Paradise' timestamp='1280705611' post='2397527']
Ah ha! This is wear Gramlins went wrong. They thought discussing principles would resonate with MHA.
[/quote]
Pardon me, but wouldn't a MADP partner care more about its partners concerns, pleadings, position and well-being rather than "unconditional surrender," from a foe we've already defeated?

I think that's where the disconnect was.