Red Raiding Safari

[Seth Muscarella]

[quote name='Chief Savage Man' date='21 July 2010 - 11:55 AM' timestamp='1279738488' post='2382945']
We do not view the one way blanket protection of an entire sphere as an explicit defensive treaty. Red team is not to be elevated over the others.
[/quote]
NPO seems to, though. :-S Red Team isn't elevated because of their doctrine. We could all protect Black Team from raiders, but that's not high on our list of priorities.

[ConeBone69]

[quote name='Wad of Lint' date='21 July 2010 - 02:49 PM' timestamp='1279738128' post='2382926']
An observation: You have compared your situation to GGA's in which it was the absolute intention of GGA to provoke conflict.
[/quote]
I didn't compare it, I just said I liked what they did.

I have no idea what Bilrow's intention was, I'm not him. Our intention is to make a statement about our dislike for the policy through semi-organized raids, we knew full well it wasn't going to be well received by some.

[Beefspari]

[quote name='Seth Muscarella' date='21 July 2010 - 12:57 PM' timestamp='1279738625' post='2382949']
NPO seems to, though. :-S Red Team isn't elevated because of their doctrine. We could all protect Black Team from raiders, but that's not high on our list of priorities.
[/quote]
The doctrine protects an entire sphere of people, whether they want it or not, or even know that it exists.

If it's possible to determine the protection and rights of people without them even signing or knowing about it, does that mean we could draft up a doctrine giving everyone permission to raid unaligned red? If so, which one trumps the other?

[shilo]

[quote name='flak attack' date='21 July 2010 - 08:43 PM' timestamp='1279737783' post='2382914']
Then do tell, who was the second alliance that you are saying supports this, because of the three mentioned, only one of them still exists.

That said, we are not and have never seriously claimed to be LUE reborn. Yes, members of our starting government were from LUE, but there were people from NAAC, ODN and NPO among the early membership as well. We joke about it because it's hilarious to think that people like you actually believe we're serious.
[/quote]
[quote name='Aurion' date='21 July 2010 - 08:40 PM' timestamp='1279737606' post='2382906']
-sigh-
Heritage of [i]what[/i], exactly? LUE? NPO? There's a fair amount of ex-NPO in MK, aren't there?[/quote]

To get this out of the way: I said heritage and values because I know those are not the same alliances. It's my believe however (correct me if I am wrong) that there are common values and that there is a heritage (obviously that has to do with quite a few members from MK stemming from LUE) that connects the two alliances.
So I wondered out loud why those values no longer apply for the same people.
-[i]before someone says once more that I said LUE and MK are the same: no I did not do so. Ie I don't think they are the same[/i]-

[quote name='Aurion' date='21 July 2010 - 08:40 PM' timestamp='1279737606' post='2382906']
How about instead of scrabbling for a connection to 2006, you use MK's history as an alliance. You know, things the Mushroom Kingdom has actually done. They have certainly been around long enough to accumulate some history. Haven't they?
[/quote]

Well, generally you make good points would I have taken two completely different and unrelated events of two completely unrelated groups and compared them.
What I did however is compare the reaction of an alliance and the values associated with that reaction to an alliance which shares a strong connection (read: if I wasn't clear before, that doesn't mean I think they are the same) and in my opinion also values to a situation that is pretty much the same, just with this group related to MK now opposing said action so strongly that an MDP was canceled (and they were a much bigger deal back then than they are now, so it was a very strong reaction), while MK now not only supports such an action, no, it commits the same acts and tries justifying them. And just for fun I also mentioned the support of ODN for their CnG ally MK now, when in 2006, ODN felt strongly enough about the same acts committed by GGA to cancel their treaty with them as well.



[quote name='Aurion' date='21 July 2010 - 08:40 PM' timestamp='1279737606' post='2382906']
I'm sorry then, but you fail tenses forever.

"Ex" indicates past. As in, the alliances that people call "Ex-Hegemony" used to be a part of the ruling hegemony. Most of the reason they're still called that in my opinion is that no one has come up with a better label, though Lord Fingolfin (sp?) had some good ideas in his thread.

Though as long as we're discussing it, I'm sure there could be a healthy debate on how valid SuperGrievances is as a label...but I guess that's off topic.
[/quote]
I can see you disagree about my labeling, I am fine with that, I gave you a much more correct label instead, so consider this my official label in the context of this discussion. Anything else would be off-topic I fear, though I agree, definitely an interesting subject.

[Jrenster]

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' date='21 July 2010 - 02:45 PM' timestamp='1279737889' post='2382917']
I wouldn't mind having a go at it, you up for it?
[/quote]

I don't see why not.

[quote name='Wad of Lint' date='21 July 2010 - 02:50 PM' timestamp='1279738239' post='2382932']
Now now. There's nothing wrong with tech-raiding. Let's just all be clear on our intentions when we move to [i]organized[/i] attacks.
[/quote]

Absolutely, your Darkness.

For the record, to Red Safari, I don't care that you're tech raiding nations or that your organizing mass tech raiding alliances. But don't try to act all big bad and tough. And don't try to say that there's some morality about freedom that you're trying to protect. This is about spitting on NPO's Revenge Doctrine.

Edited July 21, 2010 by Jrenster

[Ryuzaki]

[quote name='Wad of Lint' date='22 July 2010 - 07:50 AM' timestamp='1279738239' post='2382932']
Now now. There's nothing wrong with tech-raiding. Let's just all be clear on our intentions when we move to [i]organized[/i] attacks.
[/quote]
You do realise the extent to which it was organized was "Hey guys, go raid red nations."

[deSouza]

[quote name='Ryuzaki' date='21 July 2010 - 05:12 PM' timestamp='1279739522' post='2382974']
You do realise the extent to which it was organized was "Hey guys, go raid [b]red[/b] nations."
[/quote]


Relevant detail.

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='Jrenster' date='21 July 2010 - 07:07 PM' timestamp='1279739242' post='2382964']
I don't see why not.



Absolutely, your Darkness.

For the record, to Red Safari, I don't care that you're tech raiding nations or that your organizing mass tech raiding alliances. But don't try to act all big bad and tough. And don't try to say that there's some morality about freedom that you're trying to protect. This is about spitting on NPO's Revenge Doctrine.
[/quote]
Best get to it, I've already started

[Aurion]

[quote name='shilo' date='21 July 2010 - 03:06 PM' timestamp='1279739147' post='2382962']
To get this out of the way: I said heritage and values because I know those are not the same alliances. It's my believe however (correct me if I am wrong) that there are common values and that there is a heritage (obviously that has to do with quite a few members from MK stemming from LUE) that connects the two alliances.
So I wondered out loud why those values no longer apply for the same people.
-[i]before someone says once more that I said LUE and MK are the same: no I did not do so. Ie I don't think they are the same[/i]-[/quote]

I don't think MK is very similar at all to what I've heard of LUE, or any other alliance for that matter. They have a pretty distinctive style.



[quote]Well, generally you make good points would I have taken two completely different and unrelated events of two completely unrelated groups and compared them.
What I did however is compare the reaction of an alliance and the values associated with that reaction to an alliance which shares a strong connection (read: if I wasn't clear before, that doesn't mean I think they are the same) and in my opinion also values to a situation that is pretty much the same, just with this group related to MK now opposing said action so strongly that an MDP was canceled (and they were a much bigger deal back then than they are now, so it was a very strong reaction), while MK now not only supports such an action, no, it commits the same acts and tries justifying them. And just for fun I also mentioned the support of ODN for their CnG ally MK now, when in 2006, ODN felt strongly enough about the same acts committed by GGA to cancel their treaty with them as well.[/quote]

I still haven't the foggiest what ODN thinks of this, but by virtue of their membership in C&G they'd be canceling on a lot more than MK if they went down that road, and I think you have to factor that in even if they are displeased.

Which I doubt would get posted here even if they were. Besides which, this isn't '06. Different people, different leaders, different philosophies.

It's also worth noting that the ODN of today actually honored their treaties, so I'm not sure how much we should be comparing them to their past to start with.

[quote]
I can see you disagree about my labeling, I am fine with that, I gave you a much more correct label instead, so consider this my official label in the context of this discussion. Anything else would be off-topic I fear, though I agree, definitely an interesting subject.
[/quote]

That it would be.

[Aeternos Astramora]

So according to these alliances raiding red, it's okay for alliances to attack REALLY weak alliances and independent nations, but not okay to attack fairly weak alliances (like NPO did).

Gotcha.

[Ryuzaki]

[quote name='deSouza' date='22 July 2010 - 08:13 AM' timestamp='1279739575' post='2382975']
Relevant detail.
[/quote]

If I posted a topic with the OP as "Hey guys, go tech tech deal with GOONS nations" does that mean I organized every single deal that a nation makes with GOONS?

[ConeBone69]

[quote name='Jrenster' date='21 July 2010 - 03:07 PM' timestamp='1279739242' post='2382964']
For the record, to Red Safari, I don't care that you're tech raiding nations or that your organizing mass tech raiding alliances. But don't try to act all big bad and tough. And don't try to say that there's some morality about freedom that you're trying to protect. This is about spitting on NPO's Revenge Doctrine.
[/quote]I don't know where we've been acting all big and bad and I'm pretty sure we've all said that this is because we don't like the Revenge Doctrine and are doing this in protest of it.

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='ConeBone69' date='21 July 2010 - 07:17 PM' timestamp='1279739834' post='2382984']
I don't know where we've been acting all big and bad and I'm pretty sure we've all said that this is because we don't like the Revenge Doctrine and are doing this in protest of it.
[/quote]
It's ok, he can now put a ebil \m/er in his place and show me how manly he is. Hope he enjoys war as much as he talks.

[Aurion]

[quote name='Aeternos Astramora' date='21 July 2010 - 03:16 PM' timestamp='1279739777' post='2382980']
So according to these alliances raiding red, it's okay for alliances to attack REALLY weak alliances and independent nations, but not okay to attack fairly weak alliances (like NPO did).

Gotcha.
[/quote]

How long has tech raiding been present in CN, now?

I'd almost think after commentary like this it was invented yesterday or something.

And as point of fact, not all the alliances NPO attacked were weak. They were just outgunned by the thirty-odd MDPs.

[tamerlane]

This is the same group of people who !@#$%* about raiding every time the slightest raiding issue comes up. I have an idea, lets stop talking and get back to the safari!

[Corinan]

Just to be clear because there is some confusion, Mushroom Kingdom and LUE are one in the same. Only when called on it does Mushroom Kingdom shy away from the moniker. The alliances tags, signatures, Mario Bros. imagery, heritage and roots, and general attitude, all LUE. Every stunt like this they pull only drives home my point further.

To all those trying to drive the Sith out of this thread by claiming we're moralizing, you can stop. It's not going to work. We delight in watching you squirm under the scrutiny, and we're not going to quit turning the screws.

[Aurion]

[quote name='tamerlane' date='21 July 2010 - 03:25 PM' timestamp='1279740337' post='2383001']
This is the same group of people who !@#$%* about raiding every time the slightest raiding issue comes up. I have an idea, lets stop talking and get back to the safari!
[/quote]

Sure it's the usual fare, but after a while shouldn't the whole "shock and outrage" routine start to fade out?

I mean god damn. I'd imagine raiding's been around since Jan 06, do people really get a free pass for feigning shock that it exists?

Edited July 21, 2010 by Aurion

[Jrenster]

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' date='21 July 2010 - 03:21 PM' timestamp='1279740098' post='2382993']
It's ok, he can now put a ebil \m/er in his place and show me how manly he is. Hope he enjoys war as much as he talks.
[/quote]

Oh I will. Don't worry. Boring summer thus far; nothing like a little war to spice it up.

[WarriorConcept]

[quote name='Aurion' date='21 July 2010 - 03:27 PM' timestamp='1279740431' post='2383005']
Sure it's the usual fare, but after a while shouldn't the whole "shock and outrage" routine start to fade out?

I mean god damn.
[/quote]

That'd mean they wouldn't be supporting what they believe in if they stopped. Kudos to people for arguing for what they believe in, both sides in this case.

[tamerlane]

[quote name='Corinan' date='21 July 2010 - 08:26 PM' timestamp='1279740370' post='2383002']
Just to be clear because there is some confusion, Mushroom Kingdom and LUE are one in the same. Only when called on it does Mushroom Kingdom shy away from the moniker. The alliances tags, signatures, Mario Bros. imagery, heritage and roots, and general attitude, all LUE. Every stunt like this they pull only drives home my point further.

To all those trying to drive the Sith out of this thread by claiming we're moralizing, you can stop. It's not going to work. We delight in watching you squirm under the scrutiny, and we're not going to quit turning the screws.
[/quote]

[b]WHO NOT?[/b]

Who could not be considered MK by this statement?

Edited July 21, 2010 by tamerlane

[ConeBone69]

[quote name='Corinan' date='21 July 2010 - 03:26 PM' timestamp='1279740370' post='2383002']
Just to be clear because there is some confusion, Mushroom Kingdom and LUE are one in the same. Only when called on it does Mushroom Kingdom shy away from the moniker. The alliances tags, signatures, Mario Bros. imagery, heritage and roots, and general attitude, all LUE. Every stunt like this they pull only drives home my point further.[/quote] At last count, there were more ex-NPO than ex-LUE in MK.

[quote]To all those trying to drive the Sith out of this thread by claiming we're moralizing, you can stop. It's not going to work. We delight in watching you squirm under the scrutiny, and we're not going to quit turning the screws.
[/quote]I kinda like you guys here, I miss you.

[tamerlane]

[quote name='Aurion' date='21 July 2010 - 08:27 PM' timestamp='1279740431' post='2383005']
Sure it's the usual fare, but after a while shouldn't the whole "shock and outrage" routine start to fade out?

I mean god damn. I'd imagine raiding's been around since Jan 06, do people really get a free pass for feigning shock that it exists?
[/quote]
No it doesn't. They think with every new instance, they gain some traction. Its kind of like sisyphus.

[WalkerNinja]

FWIW, the substantive difference between the GGA raid and the Red Safari is that the GGA raid was directly initiated by the government of the GGA whereas the Safari is a grass roots effort. If Archon shows up and says "Yes, we let NPO keep the policies that allowed it to protect red unaligned nations, but we now tire of their moralizing pretense and are demonstrating to them the limits of their ever shortening reach" then the comparison would be 100% accurate. Until then, it's not.

What we are witnessing is a very different phenomena, one that [i]was[/i] specifically fought for in the Karma War. What we are seeing is the freedom of individual nations within an alliance to exercise freedom without repercussions against their alliance. And with MK especially, this is nothing new. We are supposed to accept the Mushroom King's actions and words as the things that [i]actually[/i] matter, and ignore the misbehavior of their basic members.

Now as maddening as that is to accept, that's simply the reality of the matter. My suggestion to Red Dawn (and my final words in this thread) are that if you have a problem with the behavior of the Red Safari, you ought to take it up with the leaders.

[Aurion]

[quote name='WarriorConcept' date='21 July 2010 - 03:28 PM' timestamp='1279740496' post='2383009']
That'd mean they wouldn't be supporting what they believe in if they stopped. Kudos to people for arguing for what they believe in, both sides in this case.
[/quote]

A different argument would be nice, WC. That's all I'm saying.

I mean surely, acting like that is a bit stale... why not focus instead on how the people being raided are being robbed/extorted/whatever other verb instead of saying something like "Wow, people [i]tech raid[/i]! How terrible, I never knew!"

Edited July 21, 2010 by Aurion

[Corinan]

Why do we always argue, Merrie Melodies?

To be clear, I don't give a damn if you're gonna tech raid weak and defenseless nations. If they can't defend their tech then it's not really their tech, but at least call it for what it is.And it's rather clear that this raid was organized for no other reason to than to piss off Pacifica. But yeah folks, keep pulling that tigers tail. No alliance has a longer memory or holds a grudge quite like the New Pacific Order does. Enjoy having the upper hand while it last. You're going to get hammered someday.