Announcement from Gopher Roll

[Groucho Marx]

[quote name='Grumpdogg' timestamp='1280156888' post='2389697']
GOONS [b]trying to impose a moral law[/b] of civility seems to be a trend in their negotiations lately. What a joke.
[/quote]

Pot meet kettle.

Edited July 26, 2010 by Emperor Marx

[citizenkane]

[quote name='Grumpdogg' timestamp='1280156888' post='2389697']
GOONS trying to impose a moral law of civility seems to be a trend in their negotiations lately. What a joke.
[/quote]


Polaris trying to impose moral law of civility seems to be a trend in their war declarations. What a joke

glass floor.. etc etc

Edited July 26, 2010 by citizenkane

[Kubla Khan]

[quote name='Grumpdogg' timestamp='1280156888' post='2389697']
GOONS trying to impose a moral law of civility seems to be a trend in their negotiations lately. What a joke.
[/quote]
(insert snort here)

[Penguin]

[quote name='Sandwich Controversy' timestamp='1280144716' post='2389602']
NpO complaining about NAAC not receiving aid, what a country!!

I do have to ask why, though. Why does anyone care about some guy who stayed on a bad alliance's AA three years after it disbanded because he just can't let go of his memory of his few months in that alliance?
[/quote]
How the times change, huh? The AA is a symbol to some people who get very fussy when they see it stepped on. I've learned to never underestimate the lengths people will go to protect a symbol they hold dear.

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1280145537' post='2389608']
Sorry but he waived his right to additional reps when he:

+Held our war slot hostage instead of peacing out and discussing reps civilly
+Was extremely rude throughout the entire process
+Expected the impossible given a maximum number of slots.

We never agreed on that amount anyway, as it was never officially signed off on by us. We see the 3m and whatever tech I sent him as sufficient given his attitude.

I am a patient person, almost always willing to compromise, but even I have my limits.

EDIT:
For example, this.
[IMG]http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/7472/jerkx.png[/img]
This is the attitude he has had this entire time, and it is completely unwarranted when we are willing to compromise.
[/quote]
I suppose this is just the cost of tech raiding, sometimes you step on landmines and you just have to scratch your head and wonder why so many people care about one incident and seem to not care about the next.

That said, I'm not sure why you find it so surprising that people get cranky and disagreeable when they are attacked. I know from talking to you that you're a pretty nice guy, so I'm sure that if you can put yourself in their shoes for a second you won't have much trouble figuring out where their attitude comes from. I've attacked enough people and been attacked by enough people to know that no one likes to be attacked, whatever the reason. Over time I've come to understand that you're very, very rarely going to be applauded as you chip away at someone's infrastructure. After a while, it becomes pretty easy to understand and eventually accept their bitter attitude and push the limits of your patience beyond what you thought possible. I think in your line of work you'll find that patience and tolerance will be extremely useful in dealing with the extra issues created by raids gone wrong going forward.

[quote name='Emperor Marx' timestamp='1280162084' post='2389764']
Pot meet kettle.
[/quote][quote name='citizenkane' timestamp='1280162507' post='2389772']
Polaris trying to impose moral law of civility seems to be a trend in their war declarations. What a joke

glass floor.. etc etc
[/quote]Hello Mr. Kettle. Hello Mrs. Glass Floor (House?). Sorry to see you two are still passing for retorts these days. Far be it from us and our deeply damaged PR to tell GOONS how to impose the moral law of civility (seriously, what the heck is that, Grump? Let's stick with moral law or civility next time just to be concise). It's clear that you don't want my advice and can figure out the value of civility on your own. I'm glad to see we all finally agree that such values are worth fighting for, even if you think GOONS (or someone else) is more suited to carry the cause than I am. That's really all that matters to me.

I'm sure I'll be seeing Mr. Kettle and Mrs. Glass Floor again very soon so I won't belabor our parting any further. Farewell, friends!

Edited July 26, 2010 by Penguin

[Sande]

I am on Lord Chozo's side on this conflict. I don't approve any kind of tech raids and even more tech raids of small AAs that have DoE'd without a protector or that are historically significant.
Saying that so people wouldn't flame me for what I will say next.

As much as I have read from the logs associated with the situation, Lord Chozo hasn't been acting cooperatively the whole time. I'm not going to logdump but I can say that what he demanded from NEW at first was a lot more than some whole alliances pay as reps these days. The ethics in CN go from one extreme to another. One side says tech raiding is fine, the other one says you have to pay full reps for tech raiding - even when raiding large nations that suffer many million dollars of damage from infra losses. People are really irrational when it comes to defending their ethics and morale etc.
Well, NEW has been even more irrational here - even if the nation is protected and he hasn't accepted a peace offer before the next day, they feel like they are free to raid the target again next day and send another peace offer. EVEN when the reps negotiations are going on etc.
Then again, CN politics, ethics and morale are really illogical and irrational. People do whatever they want if they can get away with it. Tech raiding, abusing their power over other alliances, forcing other alliances to pay them cash so they wouldn't be raided etc etc. I've seen it all. And it is all based on treaties (and the absence of treaties...).

[citizenkane]

[quote name='Penguin' timestamp='1280166007' post='2389814']
How the times change, huh? The AA is a symbol to some people who get very fussy when they see it stepped on. I've learned to never underestimate the lengths people will go to protect a symbol they hold dear.


I suppose this is just the cost of tech raiding, sometimes you step on landmines and you just have to scratch your head and wonder why so many people care about one incident and seem to not care about the next.

That said, I'm not sure why you find it so surprising that people get cranky and disagreeable when they are attacked. I know from talking to you that you're a pretty nice guy, so I'm sure that if you can put yourself in their shoes for a second you won't have much trouble figuring out where their attitude comes from. I've attacked enough people and been attacked by enough people to know that no one likes to be attacked, whatever the reason. Over time I've come to understand that you're very, very rarely going to be applauded as you chip away at someone's infrastructure. After a while, it becomes pretty easy to understand and eventually accept their bitter attitude and push the limits of your patience beyond what you thought possible. I think in your line of work you'll find that patience and tolerance will be extremely useful in dealing with the extra issues created by raids gone wrong going forward.

Hello Mr. Kettle. Hello Mrs. Glass Floor (House?). Sorry to see you two are still passing for retorts these days. Far be it from us and our deeply damaged PR to tell GOONS how to impose the moral law of civility (seriously, what the heck is that, Grump? Let's stick with moral law or civility next time just to be concise). It's clear that you don't want my advice and can figure out the value of civility on your own. I'm glad to see we all finally agree that such values are worth fighting for, even if you think GOONS (or someone else) is more suited to carry the cause than I am. That's really all that matters to me.

I'm sure I'll be seeing Mr. Kettle and Mrs. Glass Floor again very soon so I won't belabor our parting any further. Farewell, friends!
[/quote]

It's the glass floor because if you jump up and down too hard it breaks. Glass house would insinuate that another party is involved to break the glass and that's not the case here.

[Penguin]

[quote name='citizenkane' timestamp='1280169929' post='2389903']
It's the glass floor because if you jump up and down too hard it breaks. Glass house would insinuate that another party is involved to break the glass and that's not the case here.
[/quote]
Hmm, I'd not heard that version before. Although I am compelled to point out that the glass house saying usually involves throwing stones and I wouldn't need a second party to throw stones. I mean, I may not have big beefy arms, but I think I can still manage to toss a couple pebbles your way with my beak. Not that I would mind you.

My house isn't made of glass anyway, although I can see why you might mistake ice for glass. And before you say anything else, you'll be happy to know that I don't use a hairdryer either.

Edited July 26, 2010 by Penguin

[Groucho Marx]

[quote name='Penguin' timestamp='1280166007' post='2389814']
Hello Mr. Kettle. Hello Mrs. Glass Floor (House?). Sorry to see you two are still passing for retorts these days. Far be it from us and our deeply damaged PR to tell GOONS how to impose the moral law of civility (seriously, what the heck is that, Grump? Let's stick with moral law or civility next time just to be concise). It's clear that you don't want my advice and can figure out the value of civility on your own. I'm glad to see we all finally agree that such values are worth fighting for, even if you think GOONS (or someone else) is more suited to carry the cause than I am. That's really all that matters to me.

I'm sure I'll be seeing Mr. Kettle and Mrs. Glass Floor again very soon so I won't belabor our parting any further. Farewell, friends!
[/quote]

I'm certainly pleased we can agree what Grump said was probably the most ironic thing he could have said given the situation and I gladly acknowledge your word that everyone has the right to self-determination.

[The Reccesion]

So is this situation taken care of or is there a chance of war?

[AlmightyGrub]

There is always the chance that PC will attack Polaris...or do I just live in hope these days?

[supercoolyellow]

[quote name='The Reccesion' timestamp='1280179751' post='2390211']
So is this situation taken care of or is there a chance of war?
[/quote]

Taken care of, stay tuned for next week's episode of your favorite reality TV show, "To War, Or Not To War?"

[D34th]

[quote name='AlmightyGrub' timestamp='1280180437' post='2390229']
There is always the chance that PC will attack Polaris...or do I just live in hope these days?
[/quote]

Isn't just you my friend.

[citizenkane]

[quote name='AlmightyGrub' timestamp='1280180437' post='2390229']
There is always the chance that PC will attack Polaris...or do I just live in hope these days?
[/quote]


[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1280181884' post='2390276']
Isn't just you my friend.
[/quote]

Did you guys learn [u]nothing[/u] from the last war?

[Manwe]

Let's get back on topic, shall we?

[Grumpdogg]

[quote name='Emperor Marx' timestamp='1280162084' post='2389764']
Pot meet kettle.
[/quote]

Essentially that was my point. GOONS et al are quite happy to hold people to certain standards, yet they can't handle it when other people point out they have crossed a line. But as Penguin alluded earlier we are unlikely to receive anything but the standard "no u" response or slight variations thereof, so I'll exit this topic too.

PS: I wish Gopher Roll all the best in this endeavour.

[LordChozo]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1280149165' post='2389633']
Yeah, he's made more money off this than he would have made in months of collections.[/quote]

Actually this is incorrect. The damages accumulated by my nation in an unprovoked nuclear war from NEW are $111,416,353.51. The total aid received by people out of their own generosity and goodwill since the conflict began: $21 M + 50 tech. So I'm actually still $90 million in the hole. NEW is unwilling to speak to me directly, and the people who kindly offered to mediate anything have since disappeared, so an actual peace agreement was never reached. I look forward to these conversations.

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1280156057' post='2389691']
I certainly hope this won't encourage more people to be asshats to us during negotiations.
[/quote]

Actually, I PMed Sardonic after the third GOONS assault with a request for civil discussion about what I was completely willing to believe was a misunderstanding. I was ignored, and in fact attacked again. At which point I messaged Sardonic again and told him that if things continued in this manner I would be forced to consider it a tacit declaration of war from GOONS against myself. I was again ignored completely. Only when I posted on the forums did Sardonic even deign to speak to me, and he condescended from that first contact onward. Then threatened me, switched up reps, accused me of somehow trying to undermine the entire GOONS war machine by getting attacked by their alliance....I'm just not really sure where this sense that I've been totally uncooperative with GOONS is coming from. I even asked Sardonic to negotiate in private because I didn't want to make a public scene of the GOONS fiasco, and he refused. What more am I supposed to do?

Maybe Sardonic really is a nice and decent guy. I'm willing to believe that, even. But he's treated me consistently as an inferior and a moron as opposed to a peer deserving of basic respect. I can speak only to my experience.

Edited July 27, 2010 by LordChozo

[Sande]

LordChozo, you have to realise that no-one with as big nation as yours has ever received full reps from any war that would fully pay for all damages received. And demanding full reparations is making you look stupid. 90 mil rly? I would love to see TOP&co fully restore my nation as it was before the war but that would mean they have to pay at least 100 times as much as their reps were. No-one would accept reps this high. Maybe filling all your 5-6 slots with 3 mil + 50 tech is enough. And even that is a bit too much imo.

[LordChozo]

I am perfectly willing to negotiate with NEW on all matters regarding their war. I am not posting the figures here to attempt to negotiate with them in public - merely to dispel the notion that somehow I'm profiting off all this.

[Hereno]

How is this still going on?

Summer

Good luck Chozo. At least you're not bored?

[renrohns]

Why does it look like GOONS sent 6 million cash and 47 tech before the 15th? Am I embarrassing myself with n00bish ignorance here?