Announcement from The Order of the Paradox

[shilo]

[quote name='Fallen Fool' date='08 July 2010 - 02:09 AM' timestamp='1278547766' post='2362918']
The entire OP is written in such a way as to evoke the image of TOP as a victim of great tragedy who lumbers on anyway in order to fulfill its duty.

The reality is less romantic. TOP's leader violated the basic laws of existence. In response TOP did what was expected and required by those same laws. In doing so they did not become a hero, they just kept from becoming a scumbag.

[/quote]
I disagree entirely. The OP was written in a nice language describing simply the events that occurred, it had that RP touch to it, but hey, since we are only in an IC forum, how could they dare to do so!
That said, yes, I think TOP were victims of a great tragedy. Losing a grandmaster and well respected member of their community, by itself, is already a tragedy, the circumstances around it make it a best an equally sad tragedy.
They were forced to replace their head government in the middle of terms and reconstruction, for issues concerning terms and reconstruction, by itself a rather difficult situation already.


Was that announcement needed? Yes, I and many others would simply have asked why Feanor is back at the helm and Berith disappeared, and why the hell they didn't announce it. And when a topic asking that question would have appeared, I bet you that you would be the first to ask TOP why they kept it quiet and used that situation to bash them simply for their AA.

[Gobb]

Wow, I can't believe some people are criticizing TOP for this

[Dajobo]

Even I disagree with Fallen on this one and I have the highest respect for him.

You have my sympathy on this matter TOP. Finding out someone you like and respect is cheating is disappointing enough. Having them then try to wreck your home is awful. No amount of political hostility makes news like this fun to read.

[Sephiroth]

Good luck to TOP in dealing with the aftermath from this, although its sad to find out what happened with Berith. He was a good leader and member of TOP from my interactions with him and he will be missed.

o/ TOP

[Believland]

[quote name='Timeline' date='07 July 2010 - 07:58 PM' timestamp='1278547109' post='2362904']
Admin doing his job $30
TOP doing there part $1
TOP's need for headlines priceless

this topic was not needed.
[/quote]
So announcing a new government leader is not needed? Interesting

I love all the TOP hate in this thread is priceless. Keep it up all

[Thorgrum]

[quote name='Believland' date='08 July 2010 - 05:13 PM' timestamp='1278605605' post='2363506']
I love all the TOP hate in this thread is priceless. Keep it up all
[/quote]

I guess thats part of the price for ethics eh?

[Believland]

Yep, looks like Rsox needs to stop focusing on TOP(It seems they got his message) and expand his rule throughout the whole planet.

[Kalasin]

This can't have been an easy decision. For what it's worth, you have my respect.

(although personally, I was just delighted at the sudden fall in TOP NS )

[der_ko]

+1 respect for handling this matter in best possible manner.

[Fallen Fool]

[quote name='Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz' date='07 July 2010 - 08:36 PM' timestamp='1278549347' post='2362934']I disagree. TOP was a victim in that the perp had a crack at disrupting their forums. TOP is also operating under the terms of the ESA and therefore the signatories of that treaty are victims of aid fraud. Finally - and this is a personal judgement mind you - the !@#$%* thing about this was that the bloke responsible was a friend to many and seemed to be of good character until now. The tragedy here, if you want to call it that, is the betrayal of that trust and those friendships, I suppose.[/quote]I would agree that Berith's betrayal of trust and actions regarding TOP's forums were reprehensible and I would understand if TOP felt hurt. I would not, however, agree that this forum is a legitimate venue for an expression of that hurt; in my view, any such expression smacks more of pandering to the sympathies of the crowd for some political gain.

Also allegations of "aid fraud" are ridiculous. As long as the aid Berith funneled was not deleted, and as long as TOP as a whole are not organizing illict aid transactions, then whatever tech has been sent should be counted towards the final tally.

[quote name='Moridin' date='08 July 2010 - 12:28 AM' timestamp='1278563316' post='2363151']As far as I can tell the announcement is a description of the events that transpired with a bit of flavorful wording to make it more interesting to read. At any rate, even if it is something expected of a person or group, doing the right thing is still commendable, especially given the risk to their forums in doing so. While the same course of action would no doubt be expected of any alliance in the same position, it is not a position in which any alliance should want to find themselves, so a degree of sympathy is not out of place either.[/quote]The facts of the case should engender sympathy enough without trying to overtly play the victim card, and a fiery condemnation of Berith and his actions would have sufficed as a bit of flavor.

[quote name='crazy canuck' date='08 July 2010 - 12:35 AM' timestamp='1278563707' post='2363155']People seem to appreciate that we did the right thing. I am not sure why you think less of them for that. It makes you look a bit petty. Perhaps you will do something in the near future that will move people to congratulate you on doing the right thing. If that day comes I will congratulate you along with everyone else. Until then people will only be able to judge you on this kind of behaviour.

You may have noticed that a few people posted negative comments about us in this thread. The majority of the posts could have been negative. But they were not. That is why we have expressed our thanks to all those who have supported us in this very difficult time. If you see something wrong with that then I suggest that says more about you then anything else.[/quote]I do not particularly care if I look petty nor do I care if I am going with, or against, the grain. Part of the joys of going through various versions of personal, and professional, hell is that, at the end, you just stop giving a @#$%.

[quote name='shilo' date='08 July 2010 - 04:47 AM' timestamp='1278578802' post='2363289']I disagree entirely. The OP was written in a nice language describing simply the events that occurred, it had that RP touch to it, but hey, since we are only in an IC forum, how could they dare to do so!
That said, yes, I think TOP were victims of a great tragedy. Losing a grandmaster and well respected member of their community, by itself, is already a tragedy, the circumstances around it make it a best an equally sad tragedy.
They were forced to replace their head government in the middle of terms and reconstruction, for issues concerning terms and reconstruction, by itself a rather difficult situation already.[/quote]A group of sad circumstances which the OP seems keen to take advantage of.

[quote]Was that announcement needed? Yes, I and many others would simply have asked why Feanor is back at the helm and Berith disappeared, and why the hell they didn't announce it. And when a topic asking that question would have appeared, I bet you that you would be the first to ask TOP why they kept it quiet and used that situation to bash them simply for their AA.[/quote]I never questioned the validity or logic of announcing the changes. I questioned whether or not the way they did it was a political ploy. There is a difference.

Edited July 13, 2010 by Fallen Fool

[Titus Pullo]

[quote name='Fallen Fool' date='08 July 2010 - 08:41 PM' timestamp='1278636053' post='2364016']
I questioned whether or not the way they did it was a political ploy.
[/quote]

It wasn't.


Glad I could answer your question for you.

[shilo]

[quote name='Fallen Fool' date='09 July 2010 - 02:41 AM' timestamp='1278636053' post='2364016']
I would agree that Berith's betrayal of trust and actions regarding TOP's forums were reprehensible and I would understand if TOP felt hurt. I would not, however, agree that this forum is a legitimate venue for an expression of that hurt; in my view, any such expression smacks more of pandering to the sympathies of the crowd for some political gain.

Also allegations of "aid fraud" are ridiculous. As long as the aid Berith funneled was not deleted, and as long as TOP as a whole are not organizing illict aid transactions, then whatever tech has been sent should be counted towards the final tally.

The facts of the case should engender sympathy enough without trying to overtly play the victim card, and a fiery condemnation of Berith and his actions would have sufficed as a bit of flavor.

I do not particularly care if I look petty nor do I care if I am going with, or against, the grain. Part of the joys of going through various versions of personal, and professional, hell is that, at the end, you just stop giving a @#$%.

A group of sad circumstances which the OP seems key to take advantage of.

I never questioned the validity or logic of announcing the changes. I questioned whether or not the way they did it was a political ploy. There is a difference.
[/quote]
So it all boils down to the fact that you are pissed off that TOP got respect for how they handled the situation?

So I am right after all that the issue you have is really not with the OP, its content, rather with the alliance concerned.

[Gn0xious Jr]

it's always sad to see trust broken, sounds like you did what you had to do, and in as honorable a way as possible.

[Olaf Styke]

I buy my ethics for a dollar ninety-nine down at the cost-co :B

But seriously, shame to see this happen, that's no way for any leader to behave.

[HellAngel]

[quote name='Lord Gobb' date='08 July 2010 - 10:59 AM' timestamp='1278579562' post='2363300']
Wow, I can't believe some people are criticizing TOP for this
[/quote]

See my sig. Its a fashionable thing to do.

[Mongrel]

It's a shame to hear about Berith. After having personally seen the majority of TOP's government fail to show the ability to comprehend and rationally explain their own charter it amazes me they managed to figure out the basic ruled of admin and sort this all out.

[Fallen Fool]

[quote name='shilo' date='09 July 2010 - 10:24 AM' timestamp='1278685448' post='2364776']So it all boils down to the fact that you are pissed off that TOP got respect for how they handled the situation?

So I am right after all that the issue you have is really not with the OP, its content, rather with the alliance concerned.[/quote]The old one-two, ehh? First you attempt to forcibly superimpose a non-existent irrationality behind my posts and then you attempt to use that faux irrationality to write off my arguments entirely. An effective enough little ploy if the person using it manages to shield their intent. You, however, are quite clearly unable to, which leads to the impression that you're grasping at straws.

Regardless, I've said my piece and I'm prepared to leave this topic alone.

Good luck TOP.

[Yevgeni Luchenkov]

[quote name='Mongrel' date='12 July 2010 - 09:06 PM' timestamp='1278983157' post='2368751']
It's a shame to hear about Berith. After having personally seen the majority of TOP's government fail to show the ability to comprehend and rationally explain their own charter it amazes me they managed to figure out the basic ruled of admin and sort this all out.
[/quote]
I'd generally engage you but you're the only member we've ever lost, in over four years, over the fact that there [s]is[/s] was no mention, in our charter, of a second exam to get full voting rights. Oh yeah, because, as you could have said, we still took the time to acknowledge this most grievious offense and to amend the charter so it is included. You left a day after that amendment was approved.

It's not that we're unable to [i]comprehend and rationally explain our own charter[/i], it's that you lacked (and still lack, obviously) any form of common sense as your antics clearly showed.

With that, I thank friends and former foes alike for their support on the matter.

Edited July 13, 2010 by Yevgeni Luchenkov

[supercoolyellow]

[quote name='Yevgeni Luchenkov' date='13 July 2010 - 01:28 PM' timestamp='1279045713' post='2369443']
I'd generally engage you but you're the only member we've ever lost, in over four years, over the fact that there [s]is[/s] was no mention, in our charter, of a second exam to get full voting rights. Oh yeah, because, as you could have said, we still took the time to acknowledge this most grievious offense and to amend the charter so it is included. You left a day after that amendment was approved.
[/quote]

Wait, he seriously left TOP b/c he had to take a second exam that the charter didn't mention? o.O

Also the people being critical of TOP in [i]this[/i] thread need to slow down and take a deep breath. If you are being this critical here you are holding a grudge way to hard, loosen your grip on that grudge,[ooc] and enjoy CN more.[/ooc] The people who are usually TOP's detractors but are being respectful in this thread, thumbs up to you.

Edited July 13, 2010 by supercoolyellow

[Mongrel]

[quote name='Yevgeni Luchenkov' date='13 July 2010 - 02:28 PM' timestamp='1279045713' post='2369443']
I'd generally engage you but you're the only member we've ever lost, in over four years, over the fact that there [s]is[/s] was no mention, in our charter, of a second exam to get full voting rights. Oh yeah, because, as you could have said, we still took the time to acknowledge this most grievious offense and to amend the charter so it is included. You left a day after that amendment was approved.

It's not that we're unable to [i]comprehend and rationally explain our own charter[/i], it's that you lacked (and still lack, obviously) any form of common sense as your antics clearly showed.

With that, I thank friends and former foes alike for their support on the matter.
[/quote]

Wow, touchy touchy. common sense made me realize I didn't really want to be part of a so called democracy where people had trouble playing by the rules, but of course you didn't engage me, so I must not be replying.

[ZeTyon]

[quote name='Mongrel' date='14 July 2010 - 03:18 AM' timestamp='1279070309' post='2369947']
Wow, touchy touchy. common sense made me realize I didn't really want to be part of a so called democracy where people had trouble playing by the rules, but of course you didn't engage me, so I must not be replying.
[/quote]

Oh for christ sake we changed the charter. There was a vote on it. The matter is resolved. All while you were still there.

[Mongrel]

[quote name='ZeTyon' date='14 July 2010 - 07:56 AM' timestamp='1279108590' post='2370781']
Oh for christ sake we changed the charter. There was a vote on it. The matter is resolved. All while you were still there.
[/quote]

Let me offer a scenario. I walk into a store and buy something that has a $2 price tag. I had the cashier a $5 bill, get my change and start to walk out. I count my change and realize the cashier only gave me $2, so I point out to him that he owes me a dollar, he pulls out a sign and marks the item I bought $3, and tells me "Oh no it is $3, I gave you the correct change, the matter is resolved" I could waste my time fighting with the guy, or I could just walk out and lose the dollar and realize the guy's a scumbag, I chose the latter.

[ZeTyon]

I suppose we should have all joined the alliance again so Mongrel has his way.

Isnt it funny that you are the only member TOP has ever had that had a serious problem with it? And thanks to that we changed the charter with a vote of the members. I guess thats wrong. Iam so sorry.


And thank you we are scumbags. You take the matter with the exam way too serious. But hey its the internet.

[Mongrel]

[quote name='ZeTyon' date='15 July 2010 - 08:32 AM' timestamp='1279197128' post='2372738']
I suppose we should have all joined the alliance again so Mongrel has his way.

Isnt it funny that you are the only member TOP has ever had that had a serious problem with it? And thanks to that we changed the charter with a vote of the members. I guess thats wrong. I am so sorry.


And thank you we are scumbags. You take the matter with the exam way too serious. But hey its the internet.
[/quote]

First of review your facts child, the charter amendment was proposed before I brought up the matter.

Second, this topic isn't about me, I made a statement that TOP has had trouble comprehending their own charter, and both replies to my comment have confirmed my assertion. Now if you're so insecure with yourselves that you need to harp over my comment, I can't help it.

But if you want to go on creating your own reasons as to why I left that's fine. I already made the point that TOP had no ability to comprehend their charter, and both you and Yevgeni have made false statements as to why I left. I left because I questioned the fact that the TOP government was abusing their power and the majority of membership showed complete apathy towards the matter. Only a few people would even agree with my arguments, while the majority talked in circles and refused to address specific questions. Most told me I was wrong, some behaved like children and threw insults. It's interesting how when I bring it up here both of you have no problem admitting I was right. But hey, I guess I shouldn't expect you to understand, after all that's why I didn't want to be part of your alliance.

[Believland]

Why are you complaining about stuff that happened over a year ago? Most people would be happy to make a contribution to an alliance rather than just playing games with other leaders. Yes, how TOP treated you was pretty pathetic, but you should just let this die.