GGA: Flag Updates, Charter Updates, Dementual Doctrine

[Kubla Khan]

Good Luck Dem, i dig it

[Tigerdonia Redux]

NSO CO-PROSPERITY SPHERE

[Andre27]

About the flag, it's all right i guess.

About the removal of the Chancellor position, i see you finally see the wisdom of the old Triumvirate decision on that one. Can we look forward to a return of the Triumvirate system shortly?

Now on to the new doctrine.
Although interesting a few things come to mind: why stop the challenge system at the minister level, extend it to the levels of Regent, Prime Minister and Emperor. Make an amendment that a challenge against Regent, Prime Minister and Emperor cannot be refused by the Emperor.

Last on the new doctrine: the voting phase. If you really want the voting to reflect the membership opinion, extend the vote to 1 week to allow all members to vote.

Edited July 4, 2010 by Andre27

[Lord Rune]

Interesting, and I hope it works for you.
What happens if a challenger wins, but the Holy Emperor decides he prefers the incumbent? Can he overrule the membership vote?

[GoddessOfLinn]

This is great! Hope it will give you lots of fun

[Cataduanes]

Best of Luck Dementual

Edited July 4, 2010 by Cataduanes

[Zombie Glaucon]

Big fan of that neoclassical flag.

[John Diesel]

Good luck to our brothers in green. I think that this will produce some positive results for you, given time.

Also, that Astarle is quite awesome.

Edited July 4, 2010 by John Diesel

[StevieG]

If at first you dont succeed, try and try again. Good luck to the GGA

[Wad of Lint]

The Sith ideology is spreading. I am always glad to see homage paid to our revolutionary ideas.

[nutkase]

Good luck GGA

[ali5541]

o/ Our Allies! May we continue forward!

[Rayvon]

Congrats on the direction, Dementual .. Good luck.

o/ GGA
o/ Green Prosperity

[King MyLife]

Bromentual you seckzi beast

Good luck again i guess!

[Byron Orpheus]

We didn't extend the challenge system to the upper government because that is starting to sound too much like a democracy

We are, however, happy to allow the members some recourse against ministers that they believe are not performing well in the position. The ministers, under the new charter, have much more say in the government and themselves act as a balance against the upper gov.

Also, I think GGA is a pretty cool guy. Eh changes charters/flags and doesn't afraid of anything.

[Andre27]

[quote name='Byron Orpheus' date='04 July 2010 - 10:12 PM' timestamp='1278274351' post='2359619']
We didn't extend the challenge system to the upper government because that is starting to sound too much like a democracy

We are, however, happy to allow the members some recourse against ministers that they believe are not performing well in the position. The ministers, under the new charter, have much more say in the government and themselves act as a balance against the upper gov.

Also, I think GGA is a pretty cool guy. Eh changes charters/flags and doesn't afraid of anything.
[/quote]

Too much like democracy, off course how could i have missed the obvious

However, if you allow members to challenge the position/activity of ministers you should extend that right to challenge the upper government as well.

Besides, if you do your jobs competently and according to the wishes of the membership you should have nothing to fear. In fact by adding the option to challenge the upper government you introduce a Litmus test to see if the views of upper government still reflect the views of the membership.

[Dementual]

[quote name='Andre27' date='04 July 2010 - 02:31 PM' timestamp='1278279062' post='2359659']
However, if you allow members to challenge the position/activity of ministers you should extend that right to challenge the upper government as well.

Besides, if you do your jobs competently and according to the wishes of the membership you should have nothing to fear. In fact by adding the option to challenge the upper government you introduce a Litmus test to see if the views of upper government still reflect the views of the membership.
[/quote]
1) I humbly disagree.

2) "F. Removal of the Sovereign - Removal of the Holy Emperor may be accomplished by a joint vote of Regent, Prime Minister and 3/5 of the Ministry Council OR 75% of members OR 2/3 of members and any one of the Regent or Prime Minister."

If anyone feels I'm slacking, they've got options.

[Byron Orpheus]

Exactly. We have methods of removing the upper government that have already been in place, and it would be foolish for the GGA to embrace something as sinister as populism.

Our members now have more freedom, at any rate.

[Andre27]

[quote name='Dementual' date='04 July 2010 - 11:41 PM' timestamp='1278279672' post='2359665']
1) I humbly disagree.

2) "F. Removal of the Sovereign - Removal of the Holy Emperor may be accomplished by a joint vote of Regent, Prime Minister and 3/5 of the Ministry Council OR 75% of members OR 2/3 of members and any one of the Regent or Prime Minister."

If anyone feels I'm slacking, they've got options.
[/quote]

Which effectively means nobody of the higher government can be touched simply because few, if any, alliances have 2/3 or 75% forum activity of it's members.

The vote by ministers, regent etc is not a representative measure either since all of these are appointed by the Emperor.

If you truly want full accountability of upper and lower government towards the general membership you should extend the opportunity to challenge a position towards the upper government as well.

[Dementual]

[quote name='Andre27' date='04 July 2010 - 03:30 PM' timestamp='1278282606' post='2359699']
Which effectively means nobody of the higher government can be touched simply because few, if any, alliances have 2/3 or 75% forum activity of it's members.

The vote by ministers, regent etc is not a representative measure either since all of these are appointed by the Emperor.

If you truly want full accountability of upper and lower government towards the general membership you should extend the opportunity to challenge a position towards the upper government as well.
[/quote]
Again, I humbly disagree.

[Andre27]

[quote name='Dementual' date='05 July 2010 - 12:35 AM' timestamp='1278282890' post='2359706']
Again, I humbly disagree.
[/quote]

That's your prerogative.

What this does however is change nothing. Those who appoint ministers stay safely out of the line of fire so to speak.
If the general membership would choose to remove a minister through a vote, the person(s) responsible for putting the said minister in a position of power should take responsibility as well.

A vote of no confidence towards a minister also means a vote of no confidence towards the upper government who's job it is to monitor minister activity and remove them [i]before[/i] the situation arises that a challenge is made.

Either go all the way with the challenge system or don't go down that path at all.

I'm the first to admit that at first glance the doctrine looks interesting, but looking beyond the surface it does not change anything [i]unless[/i] it is extended towards [i]all[/i] government (this means both upper and lower government).

[Dementual]

[quote name='Andre27' date='04 July 2010 - 03:47 PM' timestamp='1278283602' post='2359721']
That's your prerogative.
[/quote]
You're right. It is.

[Andre27]

[quote name='Dementual' date='05 July 2010 - 01:03 AM' timestamp='1278284580' post='2359740']
You're right. It is.
[/quote]

Any comments on my comments? If you want to mirror the challenge system of the Sith, you should go all the way with it.

The Sith allow challenges against their Dark Lord so if the GGA wants to mirror the Sith then the challenge system needs to be extended to the highest position(s) within the GGA.

[Dementual]

[quote name='Andre27' date='04 July 2010 - 04:12 PM' timestamp='1278285142' post='2359747']
Any comments on my comments? If you want to mirror the challenge system of the Sith, you should go all the way with it.

The Sith allow challenges against their Dark Lord so if the GGA wants to mirror the Sith then the challenge system needs to be extended to the highest position(s) within the GGA.
[/quote]
No, I'm actually still trying to figure out why exactly you care so much.

And, I can put in whatever the hell kind of challenge system I want. This is a projection of my powers as Emperor upon the membership to have more freedom of choice in the government. The fact that you're going out of your way so much to try to find [i]any[/i] sort of negative with this doctrine somewhat appalls (and completely amuses) me.

[Dementual]

For the record, our challenge system is promising to be flawless thus far. Below, I offer you an example of the initial success we've had since the Dementual Doctrine was put into effect:

[URL=http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/3776/challengepartisangrandg.png][IMG]http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/3776/challengepartisangrandg.th.png[/IMG][/URL]