Concerning wars and their causes.

[Prime minister Johns]

Hello there people, I do not often start topics but the recent series of wars has me at something of a loss.

As far as my understanding goes this started as a minor conflict between \m/ & polaris with a few other alliances joining in to assist their allies on both sides, now the war is not the least bit confusing at this point, there was a disagreement and two alliances went to war. Nice and simple.

But then \m/ & Polaris get together and talk about their differences and an agreement is made and white peace is declared, now this is not unusual either, alliances come to white peace agreements all the time.

But here is where the situation takes a right angle turn and heads off into WTF land.

Two of polarises allies enter the war using the CB of assisting polaris concurrent to the withdrawal of \m/ and polaris from the war, which is the opposite of what people were expecting. When a war ends with white peace both sides shake hands and call it a day.
But what happens next is the real kicker, various other alliances also declare war in support of various allies and the war continues, even though there is no CB any more other than assisting our allies.

So I say this in a completely non-partisan fashion and directed at no alliance in particular and every alliance in general that is involved in this mess.
What the hell are you fighting over, defending an ally who is being attacked by someone else who is doing the same thing (repeat as needed)?

Call me old fashioned, but I kind of need some root cause to go back to for a war to even have a hint of credibility. Something like ... I don't know protecting the world against evil or something like that. But instead we have alliances being drawn reluctantly into a war to honour treaties and having to attack alliances that were friendly to them or even allies the day before.

This will only end one way... BADLY for EVERYONE (no exceptions and yes this means you).

And I take no pleasure in attacking anyone in this war on the grounds of the stupidity of the situation, but I will go down swinging and such as is required.

So thank you for reading my rant and I now return you to the insanity that the world has become.

[Tigerdonia Redux]

If it's bad for everyone, is it really bad at all?

[Saber]

[quote name='Prime minister Johns' date='03 February 2010 - 09:46 AM' timestamp='1265186765' post='2156105']
Two of polarises allies enter the war using the CB of assisting polaris concurrent to the withdrawal of \m/ and polaris from the war, which is the opposite of what people were expecting. When a war ends with white peace both sides shake hands and call it a day.
[b]But what happens next is the real kicker, various other alliances also declare war in support of various allies and the war continues, even though there is no CB any more other than assisting our allies.[/b][/quote]
Here you are wrong. We declared prior to the peace declaration and in support of your alliance. Yes, the peace was achieved but from what was shared on OWF it was only because Archon wanted to focus on TOP and IRON and use our "second front" as a way to eliminate part of the threat (Chief Savage Man admitted that they accepted terms because situation changed and Archon asked them to).

Link to the "admission" - http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=79467&view=findpost&p=2151175

From the start there was no talk of peace for us. I completely understand why NSO and NpO (and other alliances) returned to the fight. You don't get to peace out part of the coalition so you can destroy other part. Not if that coalition expects to live another day.

Edited February 3, 2010 by Saber

[R3nowned]

[quote name='Prime minister Johns' date='03 February 2010 - 06:46 PM' timestamp='1265186765' post='2156105']
This will only end one way... BADLY for EVERYONE (no exceptions and yes this means you).
[/quote]
No. It will end well for the neutrals

neutral menace

Also, for stat huggers who like their casualty rank

[Prime minister Johns]

[quote name='Saber' date='03 February 2010 - 07:03 PM' timestamp='1265187796' post='2156121']
Here you are wrong. We declared prior to the peace declaration and in support of your alliance. Yes, the peace was achieved but from what was shared on OWF it was only because Archon wanted to focus on TOP and IRON and use our "second front" as a way to eliminate part of the threat (Chief Savage Man admitted that they accepted terms because situation changed and Archon asked them to).

From the start there was no talk of peace for us. I completely understand why NSO and NpO (and other alliances) returned to the fight. You don't get to peace out part of the coalition so you can destroy other part. Not if that coalition expects to live another day.
[/quote]
Firstly the situation was mixed up and when the news hit the public it came in that order.

And secondly we are all fighting to assist each other, the main show is over. And we are now fighting for the sake of fighting now, or at least it seems that way from my perspective. Don't get me wrong I will carry out my orders to the letter, and do all I can to get my allies out of war. But I consider the war to of ended when the original combatants came to terms.

[WorldConqueror]

[quote name='Prime minister Johns' date='03 February 2010 - 06:46 PM' timestamp='1265186765' post='2156105']
This will only end one way... BADLY for EVERYONE (no exceptions and yes this means you).
[/quote]
Us and our fellow neutrals must disagree with you there. Global peace, global war, it's all the same to us. However, once all the belligerents have nuked each other to oblivion it may be a good time to put that secret tripartite MADP between us, GPA and TDO into practice and usher in a new age of global neutrality.

But on a more serious note, I completely agree with you. One thing I always liked about this game was that wars always had real reasons, real causes. Wars without reasons are pointless, meaningless. Perhaps war for war's sake is satisfaction enough for some, but it's the politics that make this game interesting. I hope this war does not set a precedent. And all those people who start off their war declarations and treaty cancellations with "We take no pleasure in this but", or "We regret that we have to", or "We didn't want to do this", here's an idea. Don't. You know that sovereignty thing that people talk about all the time? Grab it with both hands and use it, instead of being lead around by the nose. You people are in charge now, you're making the rules. Try not to retard the place too much.

[Saber]

[quote name='Prime minister Johns' date='03 February 2010 - 10:13 AM' timestamp='1265188383' post='2156131']
Firstly the situation was mixed up and when the news hit the public it came in that order.

And secondly we are all fighting to assist each other, the main show is over. And we are now fighting for the sake of fighting now, or at least it seems that way from my perspective. Don't get me wrong I will carry out my orders to the letter, and do all I can to get my allies out of war. But I consider the war to of ended when the original combatants came to terms.
[/quote]
It is indeed a confusing situation. I honestly don't know what will happen now. CnG is claiming they won't give us peace while our side is fighting for that peace (at least from my perspective).

However I wouldn't say war ended. I'd say that part of the war ended. Namely because CnG got wind of TOP/IRON/TORN entering the way we did, and made a smart decision to try and split us up. That's why the peace was pushed forward. Archon asked \m/ to do him a favour and when Chief Savage Man got wind of TOP/IRON entering to support NpO from Jyrinx, \m/ agreed to terms and NpO was out of the war. This does not change the fact that they peaced out because they wanted to focus on us.

I do believe I would be very upset if I got peace for my alliance just so opposing coalition can focus on other people on my side. I'd see it as attempt to divide and conquer what it really is.

PS. I do not think there was a conspiracy to take out TOP or IRON, but when the opportunity had arisen it was taken and rightly so (I'd do the same in their shoes). Problem occured when they underestimated resolve of NSO and NpO who were ready to come back to get peace for everyone who entered on their part (NSO their direct allies, and NpO even TOP who was not directly involved).


Apologies to alliances I forgot to mention. I know our side is more than TOP/IRON/NSO/NpO but for simplicity I didn't name everyone.

[Earogema]

[quote name='Tigerdonia Redux' date='03 February 2010 - 02:58 AM' timestamp='1265187515' post='2156119']
If it's bad for everyone, is it really bad at all?
[/quote]
Planet Bob's greatest Philosopher.

Also, I'm laughing like hell, and I'm sure FAN and anybody else who's seen this kind of craziness is too. I've hardly lost.

[Smacky]

I don't see a problem, this started as a war for war's sake and it's going to finish that way. (eventually)

[Alfred von Tirpitz]

While most f what you say is correct, in that the real spark that set off this explosion is no longer present. One does have to admit that such is always the case in real life and to a large extent in CN. The life of the spark is always short and it goes out in an instant, its job of igniting the bomb, done.

While it is depressing to see relationships being the main casualty of this conflict, and the old grievances and mistrusts becoming even more firmly established, and grudges reinforced as a result of this, i believe that what is happening now is merely what was going to happen anyway. What we see here is people throwing their heads back and laughing, and saying, "Welp, instead of doing it one bit at a time, we are going to do it all at once"

So in that sense, it is a good war, a sort of catharsis, ventilating the place and declaring, "Yeah, these are the lines that be". This is where we are, this is where we were, and this is where we most likely will be for the foreseeable future, since we are too bloody retarded to let 3 yr old grudges die.

Apart from that rant, well, it has been a depressing war as well, as some small lights of hope for change and changed relationships across the planet have been snuffed out, hopefully not forever.

[Canik]

[quote name='Tigerdonia Redux' date='03 February 2010 - 02:58 AM' timestamp='1265187515' post='2156119']
If it's bad for everyone, is it really bad at all?
[/quote]

Dude, you just blew my mind!

I say, either TOP - CnG peace out, or we take each other down. SF wins but becomes a hegemony and therefore is targeted and taken down. Everyone loses. Or.. is that, everyone wins? Hmm...

Edited February 3, 2010 by Canik

[Tick1]

[quote name='WorldConqueror' date='03 February 2010 - 09:17 AM' timestamp='1265188663' post='2156139']
Us and our fellow neutrals must disagree with you there. Global peace, global war, it's all the same to us. However, once all the belligerents have nuked each other to oblivion it may be a good time to put that secret tripartite MADP between us, GPA and TDO into practice and usher in a new age of global neutrality.

But on a more serious note, I completely agree with you. One thing I always liked about this game was that wars always had real reasons, real causes. Wars without reasons are pointless, meaningless. Perhaps war for war's sake is satisfaction enough for some, but it's the politics that make this game interesting. I hope this war does not set a precedent. And all those people who start off their war declarations and treaty cancellations with "We take no pleasure in this but", or "We regret that we have to", or "We didn't want to do this", here's an idea. Don't. You know that sovereignty thing that people talk about all the time? Grab it with both hands and use it, instead of being lead around by the nose. You people are in charge now, you're making the rules. Try not to retard the place too much.
[/quote]

From personal opinion, I wish you guys where in this war. Although I don't see that happening anytime soon. I tip my hat too you for making a statement since I just don't see your kind around that often in these discussions.

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Saber' date='03 February 2010 - 04:21 AM' timestamp='1265188891' post='2156145']
I do believe I would be very upset if I got peace for my alliance just so opposing coalition can focus on other people on my side. I'd see it as attempt to divide and conquer what it really is.
[/quote]
Pretty much this, MK didn't want an even fight so they tried turning this into two separate wars through elawyering (Of course it was one war again when they wanted to complain about NpO helping us on our front with GOD). We're not fools though and don't leave comrades behind.

[The Eye]

This thread is IC

[Quercus]

For a topic entitled "Concerning wars and their causes", you didn't shed a whole lot of light on the larger question of why wars are fought. I can understand the need to rationalize your position, and because of my long friendship with Almighty Grub and Polaris, I trust the simple explanation that was given before this all spun out of control.

But your post is really just an explanation- which is only one step removed from an excuse. Trust me, you don't need an excuse, and your desire to rationalize the actions of your alliance is an internal one that never needed to be voiced here. If you believe in what you are doing, then why should you ever waste the energy to convince others? They are equally sure in their beliefs and any words by you are not going to change more than a few peoples minds.

In this little slice of virtual reality, wars are fought because it is the most interesting aspect of our existence. Outside of conflict, we have nothing worthwhile to do save prepare for the next conflict. We build nations, create and organize alliances, recruit and train new members, enter into diplomatic entanglements all for the purpose of fighting wars. War defines our existence here. And as such, the claims of [i]casus belli[/i] over the history of this game have been secondary to the need for members of this community to find something worthwhile to do. This forum and those who came before it have never been anything but a tool of propaganda to rationalize the wars that are necessary to keep active and engaged members. Your addition of this topic to it is perfectly in alignment with 99% of the volumes of material that have been written since the beginning of 2006. Everything that you have said, has been said before hundreds of times, so the only value of this topic is in making you feel better (which I truly hope that it did).

For all the talk of reluctant warriors, even the OBR (an alliance that handles boredom far better than any I have encountered in my 4 years in this community) fights because they are looking for something worthwhile to do. Sure, there is a defense pact with a latin name to point at, but even so, Greenland is an ally in name only- the OBR are too stuck up to mix with Greenland regularly, and Greenland is too into lulz moments and having fun to tolerate the restrained company of the OBR. The defense of Greenland is more about making a statement about who the OBR wants to be seen as (a trustworthy and competent ally). They are no different than the rest who are just doing there best to find meaning in a rather shallow existence, each of us do it in slightly different ways, but all roads lead to conflict and it is conflict that defines us.

So to wind down this meandering diatribe, craft explanations if you must, write propaganda if it makes you happy, but recognize that if you are looking for deeper meaning, you will not find it here. This is a place to roleplay and waste your time, it has as little real value as idling away four years of your life in an IRC channel. War is an inherent part of CN, and because it is the largest (in terms of game code and in terms of community effort)and most interesting part, even the most dedicated nation builder will eventually tire of buying infra and improvement swapping. None of us need excuses to have fun in what is supposed to be a game for entertainment. Please recognize that, because when you do, you will find that you can enjoy a war without painting the other side in some diabolical light. There are no good guys or bad guys here, just bored people.

[Hasin]

[quote name='Tigerdonia Redux' date='03 February 2010 - 03:58 AM' timestamp='1265187515' post='2156119']
If it's bad for everyone, is it really bad at all?
[/quote]



Please don't make me think on these boards ever again.

[Prime minister Johns]

[quote name='Quercus' date='04 February 2010 - 12:22 AM' timestamp='1265206963' post='2156458']
For a topic entitled "Concerning wars and their causes", you didn't shed a whole lot of light on the larger question of why wars are fought. I can understand the need to rationalize your position, and because of my long friendship with Almighty Grub and Polaris, I trust the simple explanation that was given before this all spun out of control.

But your post is really just an explanation- which is only one step removed from an excuse. Trust me, you don't need an excuse, and your desire to rationalize the actions of your alliance is an internal one that never needed to be voiced here. If you believe in what you are doing, then why should you ever waste the energy to convince others? They are equally sure in their beliefs and any words by you are not going to change more than a few peoples minds.

In this little slice of virtual reality, wars are fought because it is the most interesting aspect of our existence. Outside of conflict, we have nothing worthwhile to do save prepare for the next conflict. We build nations, create and organize alliances, recruit and train new members, enter into diplomatic entanglements all for the purpose of fighting wars. War defines our existence here. And as such, the claims of [i]casus belli[/i] over the history of this game have been secondary to the need for members of this community to find something worthwhile to do. This forum and those who came before it have never been anything but a tool of propaganda to rationalize the wars that are necessary to keep active and engaged members. Your addition of this topic to it is perfectly in alignment with 99% of the volumes of material that have been written since the beginning of 2006. Everything that you have said, has been said before hundreds of times, so the only value of this topic is in making you feel better (which I truly hope that it did).

For all the talk of reluctant warriors, even the OBR (an alliance that handles boredom far better than any I have encountered in my 4 years in this community) fights because they are looking for something worthwhile to do. Sure, there is a defense pact with a latin name to point at, but even so, Greenland is an ally in name only- the OBR are too stuck up to mix with Greenland regularly, and Greenland is too into lulz moments and having fun to tolerate the restrained company of the OBR. The defense of Greenland is more about making a statement about who the OBR wants to be seen as (a trustworthy and competent ally). They are no different than the rest who are just doing there best to find meaning in a rather shallow existence, each of us do it in slightly different ways, but all roads lead to conflict and it is conflict that defines us.

So to wind down this meandering diatribe, craft explanations if you must, write propaganda if it makes you happy, but recognize that if you are looking for deeper meaning, you will not find it here. This is a place to roleplay and waste your time, it has as little real value as idling away four years of your life in an IRC channel. War is an inherent part of CN, and because it is the largest (in terms of game code and in terms of community effort)and most interesting part, even the most dedicated nation builder will eventually tire of buying infra and improvement swapping. None of us need excuses to have fun in what is supposed to be a game for entertainment. Please recognize that, because when you do, you will find that you can enjoy a war without painting the other side in some diabolical light. There are no good guys or bad guys here, just bored people.
[/quote]

I would not call this propaganda because I am slamming everyone, not just one side.
This is more like the text equivalent of a facepalm more than propaganda.
Propaganda is directed at one side for the political gain of another side and no one side is singled out here and I am not seeking to score "political points" for my side.

As for the nation building vs. war, there is a sizeable community of people that enjoys the nation building aspect of managing a nation on planet Bob, They tend to dislike wars. Personally I originally came from a community that was like that but circumstances drove me out of neutrality. I will fight wars but only for a good reason, destruction for the sake of destruction has no appeal to me.

But to get to your main point as I see it about war in general, The powers that be have decided that on planet Bob there is no set goal other than those we set for ourselves, so no one management style for your nation is any more or less "valid" than any other to achieve your goals, And we can see around us people who do not fight wars willingly such as the GPA all the way to warrior cultures such as Sparta that live solely for the thrill of battle and every possible point of view in between. So to say that everyone likes war is not entirely true all the time, there is a wide variety of opinions on this subject.

My personal point of view on war is that I do not fight often, but when I do I make it so terrible for my opponent that he or she will look for an easier target next time and I will have peace.

[Vukland]

Wish you guys would use a different acronym than WTF.

[Merrie Melodies]

\m/ had been in talks days before TOP/Iron declared, when the request to peace out was made to \m/ CSM was already in dialogue with Grub. The war would have ended that night regardless, that TOP and iron declared first was just the ice cream on top of the cake for some.

This war as it is now was happening sooner or later anyways, more fun this way, neither side got to wait until they had the perfect setup before launching, lots of unknowns.......I am loving it.

[Jamacus]

[b]Abbreviated War Time Line[/b]
-NpO declares war on \m/ without a good reason.

-IRON and TOP declare war on CnG without [i]any[/i] reason.

-The alliances that make up Super Complaints realizes that this is unacceptable and declare war on The Dark Side.


The reason this war started was stupid. The reason this war continues is far from it. Aggression like was shown can not be tolerated. We're way past the point where we call this a misunderstanding and accept a white peace.

[Riddick]

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' date='04 February 2010 - 04:03 AM' timestamp='1265256233' post='2157879']
I am loving it.
[/quote]





[img]http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/4739/mcdonalds1.jpg[/img]

[Madtrixr]

You want a reason for the war? I'll tell you:

Grass grows, Birds fly, and brother, people like to fight.

They want to prove their strength. They want to show they are the Best of Bob. The only way to proclaim you are one of the best is on a mountain of defeated opponents. The NpO-\m/ thing was a great excuse.

Don't forget that some wars are opportunites to settle old scores.

I just think that tensions were starting to build, because, like someone once said (I think on these forums) Peace leads to stagnation, stagnation leads to boredom. This is our chance to vent, then everything will settle back down. (Think of it as a Wonder Clock)

NOTE: If you don't understand, or I'm going around in circles, It's 3:47 in the morning, and I'm here. The defense rests.

[Rush Sykes]

[quote name='WorldConqueror' date='03 February 2010 - 09:17 AM' timestamp='1265188663' post='2156139']
Us and our fellow neutrals must disagree with you there. Global peace, global war, it's all the same to us. However, once all the belligerents have nuked each other to oblivion it may be a good time to put that secret tripartite MADP between us, GPA and TDO into practice and usher in a new age of global neutrality.

But on a more serious note, I completely agree with you. One thing I always liked about this game was that wars always had real reasons, real causes. Wars without reasons are pointless, meaningless. Perhaps war for war's sake is satisfaction enough for some, but it's the politics that make this game interesting. I hope this war does not set a precedent. And all those people who start off their war declarations and treaty cancellations with "We take no pleasure in this but", or "We regret that we have to", or "We didn't want to do this", here's an idea. Don't. You know that sovereignty thing that people talk about all the time? Grab it with both hands and use it, instead of being lead around by the nose. You people are in charge now, you're making the rules. Try not to retard the place too much.
[/quote]

So you considered the noCB war to have had a "good reason?" That shows exactly the value that should be placed on your opinion.