Final Zero Hour Announcement

[o-dog]

Oh the irony. UCN talking about 'humping' and this affecting an alliance's policies. Oh god, the irony.

I believe that was Pops talking, not UCN. Anyhow, you know nothing about UCN policy.

I guess ZH did what they felt they had to do, given the history they'd made for themselves.

[Penkala]

I believe that was Pops talking, not UCN. Anyhow, you know nothing about UCN policy.

Yes I do. Though that's not really the point of this announcement. Best of luck to the members of ZH wherever they may go.

I'll just need you to fill out this form and then I'll be better able to respond.

Edit: Englishfail

TPF: just too cool for school

Edited January 12, 2010 by Penkala

[Believland]

Oh the irony. UCN talking about 'humping' and this affecting an alliance's policies. Oh god, the irony.

Penkala take a step back. Everyone is being ironic in this "new" world.

[ktarthan]

Unfortunate, but inevitable.

Good luck ZH.

[Coven]

-snip-

Your a good guy Mal, always considered ya a friend.

Best of luck.

[Bluto OLD]

http://www.cybernations.net/search_aid.asp...iridian+Entente

Who says ZH didn't pay?

all former ZH members as the Yohan is quitting and so is Ayrrie

[deathcat]

I have to say.. I'm sorry things went so squirrelly this summer.. I'll always love you guys.. Yohan, DM and Ayrrie.. YOU will always be my friends despite the falling out have been through. You are always my first family and will always remember you. My nation of Ozekiland will have a farewell feast in your honor. Not for the reasons for your departure.. but for the times we shared in our hallowed halls of Elysium. Simpler times.. but also good times. Thank you for your friendships, your ear and your support in my hour of need..

oo/ Yohan

oo/ Ayrrie

oo/ DrunkMonkey

May your passing be met not with sorrow but with reverence from your friends.

<3

[chefjoe]

Excuse me chefjoe,

I am only casually interested in this (and I didn't even read the thread, TBH), but I stumbled upon your post and I was wondering what would be the course of action you would follow. Is it "sweeping it under the carpet" the correct way to deal with that? Or, what else?

(If my question is stupid because of my ignorance of the previous conversation, sorry: it's entirely my fault.)

Your question isnt stupid at all jerdge. The answer to it is actually the crux of all these arguments and ill feelings in these threads imo.

Now in saying that I see no point in throwing out my answer since no matter what it would just serve to muddy an allready murky thread. If you would really like to hear my answer feel free to query me and I will happily discuss it with you.

[chefjoe]

i would say that having Valhallans say that "sweeping it under the rug" reflects quite badly. we see what happens to those who sweep crap under the rug. frankly, if i would rather have a friend that owns up to mistakes than a friend continuously hides mistakes until they blow up in his face.

it seems Valhalla though is far more willing to lie/omit the truth to save their own skin than they are prepared to man up and take punishment like ZH was willing to do. again, ZH was willing to take punishment, blame Athens for deciding not to punish. Valhalla seems to be made of lesser stuff than ZH as even chefjoe is unwilling to take punishment for crimes he may have committed.

Excuse me?

First off CH isnt Gov nor has he EVER been gov so his opinion cannot be even remotely associated with it.

Secondly, you have NO idea whom I am if you think I have EVER hidden from a conflict. Ohwai thats right I turned pixel lover jan 1... As for crimes? pray tell which ones have I committed which I am so brazingly turning yellow and running from in your obviously educated and well informed statement?

[Lucas Perry]

Good luck to all your (ex)members in finding new homes.

[ChairmanHal]

i would say that having Valhallans say that "sweeping it under the rug" reflects quite badly. we see what happens to those who sweep crap under the rug. frankly, if i would rather have a friend that owns up to mistakes than a friend continuously hides mistakes until they blow up in his face.

it seems Valhalla though is far more willing to lie/omit the truth to save their own skin than they are prepared to man up and take punishment like ZH was willing to do. again, ZH was willing to take punishment, blame Athens for deciding not to punish. Valhalla seems to be made of lesser stuff than ZH as even chefjoe is unwilling to take punishment for crimes he may have committed.

I'm sorry, but I'm really not following why you made this particular remark in response to my post. I objected to the tone taken by one of the former ZH members, now a member of VE, who essentially called out people who didn't like him. Another member of VE agreed with my sentiment.

Your remarks seem to be directed at Valhalla in general. That being the case, please take it up with Chefjoe in private.

[Dochartaigh]

Excuse me?

First off CH isnt Gov nor has he EVER been gov so his opinion cannot be even remotely associated with it.

Secondly, you have NO idea whom I am if you think I have EVER hidden from a conflict. Ohwai thats right I turned pixel lover jan 1... As for crimes? pray tell which ones have I committed which I am so brazingly turning yellow and running from in your obviously educated and well informed statement?

i know Hal ain't gov. my answer was based on this part of his post:

"PROTIP: Don't sit inside an honorable alliance with numerous treaties to its credit proclaiming how people should "do something about it" if they find your past dishonorable behavior objectionable. It reflects badly on your new home, but mostly it reflects very badly on you."

While he may have been responding to tone, it seemed ironic given that you just gave the whole "sweep it under the rug" bit as it seems that to many things swept under rugs seem to turn up in CN as most involved find it hard to keep their mouths shut for too long.

i never said that you had anything to hide either. just that from your post CJ, it seems that you would prefer the method of concealing things instead of being upfront and honest to an ally of yours. which i also stated reflects badly upon Valhalla.

take it as you will but if the leader of an alliance says something like this in a post, it tends to make one wonder. maybe there would be less confusion if you did not publicly state you think "sweeping it under a rug" is a preferable method of dealing with issues such as this. it would make one think that Valhalla does not have anything to hide as TPF/ZH did.

[chefjoe]

i know Hal ain't gov. my answer was based on this part of his post:

"PROTIP: Don't sit inside an honorable alliance with numerous treaties to its credit proclaiming how people should "do something about it" if they find your past dishonorable behavior objectionable. It reflects badly on your new home, but mostly it reflects very badly on you."

While he may have been responding to tone, it seemed ironic given that you just gave the whole "sweep it under the rug" bit as it seems that to many things swept under rugs seem to turn up in CN as most involved find it hard to keep their mouths shut for too long.

i never said that you had anything to hide either. just that from your post CJ, it seems that you would prefer the method of concealing things instead of being upfront and honest to an ally of yours. which i also stated reflects badly upon Valhalla.

take it as you will but if the leader of an alliance says something like this in a post, it tends to make one wonder. maybe there would be less confusion if you did not publicly state you think "sweeping it under a rug" is a preferable method of dealing with issues such as this. it would make one think that Valhalla does not have anything to hide as TPF/ZH did.

I have never been a proponant of sweeping things under the rug Doch. Nowhere in what I said did I say to do that. I generaly take the up front approach on things, sometimes thats good, sometimes not so much....lol. Anyhow all I was saying is that I personaly believe that this situation was handled very well at all, by either side. Not well at all.

If you would like to discuss it further I extend the same offer to you as jerdge. Feel free to query or PM me anytime to pursue this in a venue more suited to sane discussion and less intrusive to cluttering up the OWF.

Edited January 12, 2010 by chefjoe

[Dochartaigh]

I have never been a proponant of sweeping things under the rug Doch. Nowhere in what I said did I say to do that. I generaly take the up front approach on things, sometimes thats good, sometimes not so much....lol. Anyhow all I was saying is that I personaly believe that this situation was handled very well at all, by either side. Not well at all.

If you would like to discuss it further I extend the same offer to you as jerdge. Feel free to query or PM me anytime to pursue this in a venue more suited to sane discussion and less intrusive to cluttering up the OWF.

then i apologize for misreading your statement.

[Fantastico]

then i apologize for misreading your statement.

Logs here, pls?

[erikz]

GL to all of the ex-members of ZH, especially the ones who now call VE home <3

You know they are all spais rite?

[Fantastico]

You know they are all spais rite?

Only 79.73% of the ones in .gov, man.

[auto98]

I just have to comment before the tin foil brigade starts passing out the 'special' kool aid.

This decision was made in the best interests of the members. It would be impossible to carry on as an alliance from a political stand point. When we told Athens what the original intention of ZH was, we fully expected to get killed. Obviously that did not happen, though to this day I personally think it should have and was a mistake on Athens' part for not meting out some form of punishment. In the wake of this affair, the level of distrust on both sides is high. No one aside from Athens would sign a treaty with ZH. Athens is a good group of people, but having one ally isn't enough, especially when that ally is split down the middle when it comes to how ZH should have been dealt with.

People keeping asking why we came out when we did. It really was a spur of the moment thing, I know it's hard to believe, but I'm kind of impulsive. We knew it was only a matter of time before someone threw us under the bus, so I made the decision to read Zulchep in on the original intent of ZH. She advised we come clean with Athens as we had an MDoAP with them sitting in our Embassy since Oct, just waiting to be signed. We didn't upgrade because of our history, before all of this we were actively trying to figure out how to separate ourselves from Athens and not have the relationship end on bad terms. Telling the truth equaled ZI and the death of the alliance, politically and membership wise. As we wanted ZH to be successful, we were selfish for that reason in not telling Athens.

Sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and accept whatever may come, which is exactly what we did and this is the result.

Whether this makes a difference or not, I really don't care. I just get tired of people acting like they know everything when they really don't have a !@#$@#$ clue.

In other words, unlike every other war ever fought, the actual spies get off scot free, while the alliance that committed an act of war during wartime, doesn't?

Setup much.

[Dochartaigh]

In other words, unlike every other war ever fought, the actual spies get off scot free, while the alliance that committed an act of war during wartime, doesn't?

Setup much.

you need to apply using that form that Roadie provided before anyone should respond to your post.

[astronaut jones]

In other words, unlike every other war ever fought, the actual spies get off scot free, while the alliance that committed an act of war during wartime, doesn't?

Setup much.

It takes two parties to spy, otherwise you've got nothing. One of those parties was punished for spying, or for setting up a spy operation, whatever, they were punished is the point. The other group was not, and yes, they should have been.

They both deserved punishment for it, TPF was nowhere near innocent, but neither was ZH.

[Corinan]

Very well played, Zero Hour and Athens. I am impressed. Well played.....

[auto98]

It takes two parties to spy, otherwise you've got nothing. One of those parties was punished for spying, or for setting up a spy operation, whatever, they were punished is the point. The other group was not, and yes, they should have been.

They both deserved punishment for it, TPF was nowhere near innocent, but neither was ZH.

Really? Committing an act of war during war is CB for an attack several months later?

Using that logic, every attack ever made nation-on-nation during a war is CB for someone to declare war months down the line.

[auto98]

you need to apply using that form that Roadie provided before anyone should respond to your post.

Apply for what?

[JWConner]

Really? Committing an act of war during war is CB for an attack several months later?

Using that logic, every attack ever made nation-on-nation during a war is CB for someone to declare war months down the line.

Shhh, stop using logic. Don't want to ruin the moment.

[astronaut jones]

Really? Committing an act of war during war is CB for an attack several months later?

Using that logic, every attack ever made nation-on-nation during a war is CB for someone to declare war months down the line.

The question was ALWAYS whether or not TPF had carried out the act BEYOND the war, and from all accounts the answer was yes. Just because they failed, doesn't mean the intent to do harm was not carried over beyond the end of the war.

TPF did wrong, they were punished for it. ZH did wrong too, they were not, they should have been. That is the point, I know you're in TPF so it's impossible for you to admit any wrongdoing, but you did wrong and were punished.