Joint NATO/IRON/TOP Announcement

[deth2munkies]

Very much this. [OOC: I took part in both sides of the mall tours, for those of you that know what I'm talking about. Was great fun.]

With the exception of Bilrow, I thought you guys were better than this.

I too am curious about this.

You're smarter than this. Don't try playing that game.

Just don't even try. I tried to dam the flow of liquid stupid earlier with logical reasoning, it failed and the dam burst when I left for a couple hours. This thread has become New Orleans covered in stupid dumped by Hurricane Idiot.

[Lord Brendan]

Indeed its a shame that this is the new ballgame; in the past such things, well most true diplomatic and political conflict took place behind closed doors. There was more control over the exchange, and everything was less likely to simply explode. I remember a time when the defender in a war wasn't defamed and the CB was kept relatively private. Unfortunately the new CN is very much a public political PR battle between the different sides, the general public is now controlled by spectacle and stimulated periodic by instigation. Neither side wants to relent because they are afraid they will lose their foot hold, or allow the other to take over. I think it really started with the series of announcements by Dilber and Doitzitle (sorry I know I didn't spell that right :/), then with the war people really saw how running a good pr campaign can help you win the diplomatic war. Now SF/C&G started things up with a campaign to gain public support in their war against TPF, and the prospective defenders are trying to answer their movements with movements of their own.

I also agree, I would like to see a peaceful resolution. Starting a war over this was silly from the start, escalating it just makes it worse.

Personally I don't see anything bad about your first paragraph (the cheap potshots aside). More public debate and less backroom diplomacy is a GOOD thing for the Cyberverse.

Sure as hell beats the era of Hegemony announcing "we have rock-solid proof but we don't need to share it with anyone".

Edited January 1, 2010 by Lord Brendan

[ChairmanHal]

well to be honest, if Rish wanted to be a good spy, his alt account would be the one that is well connected. thus, his time as a RoK Tri would have given access to a lot of information that could be passed on to RoK's enemies. thus, it would actually make more sense to have the alt be better connected while the main was relatively unknown. this would keep the fact that the alt was the spy and make the main look like the spy allowing for RoK to be blamed for something they did not do.

Except of course all evidence, including that presented by Bilrow, shows he was loyal to Rok so...your theory doesn't hold water.

I think perhaps we have here a player who sought to have an additional alter ego that he could pay attention to from time to time when he was bored. To the extent that he used it to aid Rok is firmly established. As to whether he spied with the additional alter ego on behalf of Rok...why choose the alliances he did and not others? If you're just wanting an additional nation to toy with there are alliances out there that are pretty well known for barely paying attention to their rosters and would require little to no interaction through a forum.

No, pretty much guilty on all counts. The only question is what did Rok gov know after late February 2009 and when did they know it.

[wintermoon]

Just don't even try. I tried to dam the flow of liquid stupid earlier with logical reasoning, it failed and the dam burst when I left for a couple hours. This thread has become New Orleans covered in stupid dumped by Hurricane Idiot.

This would cover about 99.9% of all the threads in the past week or so.

[Sigrun Vapneir]

(after getting links to the important posts that are buried in this endless spew I have decided to edit out most of my post. I will leave the end bit, along with a couple of links, as I find them very relevant still.)

One final note - this forum is clearly marked as OOC. Anyone, regardless of where their IC loyalties are, who uses this to spin-spin-spin for their own side is therefore marking themselves, in a bad way. Spin IC when you have to, sure, but here no one should be spinning anything. We are all just actors on the stage of planet bob, but this forum is the backstage. Arthur and Mordred may hate each others guts onstage, but if the actors playing them continue the fights backstage, someone has a problem and needs to seek counselling.

My two cents and meant sincerely.

EDIT: I am told VanHooIII has issued the reply I was looking for. I believe my point stands - buried in a 37 page thread it does little good. I am not going to read the entire thread at this point to find it, although I would appreciate a link...

Second Edit: Hoo responded apparently while this was still in an IC forum. Also this post appears to sum things up fairly well.

Edited January 1, 2010 by Sigrun Vapneir

[Trigger]

I'm drunk. I can't can't read this. Please tl;dr

I didn't even try to read it. Can we get the "cliff notes" version please?

[bros]

I didn't even try to read it. Can we get the "cliff notes" version please?

I believe the short version of the topic post is "a guy who was former RoK gov and an advisor to RoK gov held a multi, tried to get in IRON but failed, and sucessfully got his multi in NATO." NATO/IRON/TOP reported him and he has been banned. Now they want RoK to ban him from their forums (which is what I assume they mean by remove him from their community, unless they just mean removing all gov masks/member masks).

Pardon my asking, but what the hell does TOP have to do with this? i must've missed it in the topic post.

edit: ahhh he tried to recruit TOP nations while ghosting NSO or ODN, one of those alliances

Edited January 1, 2010 by bros2

[flak attack]

Except of course all evidence, including that presented by Bilrow, shows he was loyal to Rok so...your theory doesn't hold water.

I think perhaps we have here a player who sought to have an additional alter ego that he could pay attention to from time to time when he was bored. To the extent that he used it to aid Rok is firmly established. As to whether he spied with the additional alter ego on behalf of Rok...why choose the alliances he did and not others? If you're just wanting an additional nation to toy with there are alliances out there that are pretty well known for barely paying attention to their rosters and would require little to no interaction through a forum.

No, pretty much guilty on all counts. The only question is what did Rok gov know after late February 2009 and when did they know it.

Community. He liked Rok's, but wanted another one too. Like I said, I've done it in other games. It's fun. If you ever play a game where you can have legal multies, I suggest trying it.

There's always the possibility that he wanted to play things from another side. On occasion, I've thought it would be fun to RP a character whose views I really disagree with, but the MK community is just too fun to give up.

There are plenty of OOC reasons for it. Not everything someone does is motivated by IC feelings.

EDIT: I am told VanHooIII has issued the reply I was looking for. I believe my point stands - buried in a 37 page thread it does little good. I am not going to read the entire thread at this point to find it, although I would appreciate a link...

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?s...t&p=2072394

Edited January 1, 2010 by flak attack

[Lord Brendan]

An interesting but hardly surprising development.

This was posted OOC and it appears the mods are leaving it here, therefore my reply will be OOC. A defensible decision, I suppose, with all the talk of ip addresses and coldfront masques and all. It could have all been rewritten to be IC without much effort, but coulda woulda shoulda I suppose. I will deal with it as it is. My reply would be considerably different, certainly much shorter, were it IC.

EDIT: I am told VanHooIII has issued the reply I was looking for. I believe my point stands - buried in a 37 page thread it does little good. I am not going to read the entire thread at this point to find it, although I would appreciate a link...

It was actually posted IC to begin with and then moved to this forum by the moderators.

You can find Hoo's reply on page 5:

snip

[Priest Kahn]

Correct.

So, if we want to find out if Ragnarok is a witch... we should weigh it... and if the entire alliance weighs only as much as a duck... it is a witch.

Places all of RoK's tanks on scale

I can see already indications point to Ragnarok not being a witch.

Okay, this is the post of the year right here. <3

Some responses to iamthey's omega wall of text which I had the displeasure of reading:

Finally further intent can be implied based on the alliances that he chose to infiltrate, IRON/NATO were both alliances that have historically been on the other side of the political divide from rok. If he was just running a second account why not join alliances with people that felt the same way about CN, people he could get along with?

What purpose would there have been in joining a similar alliance? Honestly, if I were ever to leave MK I would join an alliance such as IRON or TPF, if only to get an idea of how the other side comes to think about situations which seem crystal clear to me. It is much more interesting to see things from another point of view than to continue seeing things from your old point of view, especially if you have two lives.

To this end I think if it had been any other alliance the reaction would have been much different. If it had been found that moo, no longer a government member of NPO, was in fact running a spy ring (or sending out multi's), which was moreover targeting alliances that are 'on the otherside' most would have no trouble making the link between the government of NPO and himself. Even if he was acting alone.

No, this is simply not true. If there were no evidence to support that he was working for NPO, the vast majority of us would not consider it NPO's crime. You can quote me on that in case a similar situation ever comes up. Only radicals who are so biased they ignore fact would call for war against NPO in this situation.

I certainly have met a number of alliance fanatics in my experience, and judging my the emotional involvement of many posting here I think the reality is more common that one might think. So while Rok, or at least anyone that mattered there may have been conveniently insulated from the activities of Rish (when he was acting as their advisor) that doesn't mean the alliance as a whole doesn't bear some measure of responsibility for the monster it created, nor does it mean the alliance didn't stand to benefit from what Rish was doing.

This is somewhat true, but since Rish was a former government member, it is likely he turned himself into a monster. Having been out of the game some time, I can't comment on whether RoK changed after Rish was no longer government, but assuming it didn't, then Rish is responsible for his own actions.

Rishnokof, a former top level leader, a senior member of rok, and an advisor to hoo was engaging in espionage, or at the very least was infiltrating political enemies of Rok. If this does not constitute a CB, it should at the very least be a re-evaluation of where potential supporters of the anti-tpf coalition stand

The fact is that at the time of the infiltration, RoK as a whole was not responsible for Rish's actions. He may have committed crimes that could be considered valid CB if RoK endorsed them, true, but there is no evidence suggestions Rish would not have been kicked out of his alliance had they known what he was doing. Transitively, potential supporters of the "anti-tpf coalition" shouldn't consider this a fault of RoK's. They should only reevaluate their position if that position is based upon what an alliance was in the past instead of what it is now.

EDIT: One last thing:

I remember a time when the defender in a war wasn't defamed and the CB was kept relatively private.

I don't remember any time when there wasn't blatant flaming in war. And how can you honestly believe a CB should not be publicized? There is no accountability to your actions if your CB is private.

Edited January 1, 2010 by Priest Kahn

[Totila]

DUN DUN DUNNN

Yes, I am a shameless war-whore. Down with oRk! Onwards IRON!

[BlackKnight]

NO GUYS

This CB hasn't matured yet. It takes at least four months for a CB of this nature to mature to the point where it can be harvested and used.

And that is politics. Nothing wrong with it.

Slap me today in front of your 12 buddies and I'll let it slide then. But I'll catch you tomorrow with my friends or by yourself and I'd beat the snot out of you.

Kind of how Politics works.

[PrideAssassin]

"Advisor" in foreign affairs, perhaps?

How convenient.

Edited January 1, 2010 by PrideAssassin

[Kzoppistan]

Not particularily.

1) Of course they going to deny it. They had nothing to do with Rish's actions. Because someone denies something, it does not mean they're guilty. That's the basis for just about every modern system of justice. Show some proof already. I did enjoy the C&G/SF conspiracy theories, though. Nice spin, doctor.

2) Yes, it's a ridiculous suggestion. About as ridiculous as some of the suggestions the OMG WTF OUTRAGE coalition was making. There is no doubt in my mind that Rish was the primary nation, and Magee the multi. Again, I await proof (that will never come) as to how long Rish had Magee under his personal control. We're just trying to keep up with the iRON (no, I spelled that right) members who were linked to this and told what to say. It's the iRONy (oh, I'm on a roll now) of using ridiculous statements to counter ridiculous statements.

3) Obviously, Rok is rightly p***** that a former (bolded for the idiots) member of government would do something that would reflect so poorly on them. You covered the conspiracy theories nicely in the first point, and the bit about fanatics and cults here is a masterful touch. Sure, people make bad decisions based on their loyalties. For example, trying to spy on NATO. What the heck has NATO got that anyone else would want?

- Aloop, Devoted Fanatic of Xiphosism and most certainly not that guy who thinks Kzopp is kinda cool too.

Points

1.

2.

&

3.

He said, she said.

I do not cast accusations because any hard evidence has not yet come forward, if indeed any will at all. But the circumstantial evidence paints quite a picture.

-Mr. Otingocni of Kzoppistan, Righteous Zealot of Zenithism, Stalwart Ally to TPF, and certainly not the guy who thinks Aloop might know what he's talking about from time to time.

Off-topic: I hate you all. New's Years Eve, and I wasted 2 hours on this topic/drama. If you weren't going to launch a war today, why post this? It wasted more time than a war would, TBQH. Do something so Xiph will let me out of hippy mode. It's killing my collections.

I second this.

[Owned-You]

Frankly, I don't quite see the need for speculation or debate upon this issue. It's obvious the purpose of this topic is either to place pressure on RoK and friends to enter the diplomatic tables to settle this out; which also can be indicated by the mass-peace-mode tactic that has breed a perpetual stalemate until someone decides to end it. Furthering my suspicion that this is a ploy for diplomatic measures to be taken. Or this could simply be an attempt and incite to masses against RoK in order to further the support of an eventual TOP and friends DoW.

Thus, I'm left wondering what the outcome of this will bring. I hope, it's a diplomatic outcome because I was having quite a bit of fun building my pixels up.

[Aloop]

He said, she said.

Which is about all that's left.

Thankfully.

[PrideAssassin]

Which is about all that's left.

Thankfully.

Except for that hard throbbing evidence slapping you in the face.

[Strykewolf]

Except for that hard throbbing evidence slapping you in the face.

That's evidence? Thought that was left-overs.

Try harder.

((Edit)) There is an o in left-overs. Who knew?

Edited January 1, 2010 by Strykewolf

[Lord Brendan]

I too am curious about this.

Did a bit of investigating:

23:23 Lord_Brendan just need a minute of your time

23:23 Lord_Brendan I was going to check myself

23:23 Lord_Brendan but your forums won't allow it unless you're masked

23:23 caleb[nato] what is it

23:23 Lord_Brendan could you check President Magee's postcount on your forum for me?

23:23 Lord_Brendan and maybe his most recent post date?

23:24 caleb[nato] checking.....

23:27 caleb[nato] shows a total of nine posts, last post date was 5:19 pm last tuesday, but hes a nonmember and hes not a diplomat either.

23:28 Lord_Brendan if its not too much trouble, check what most of his posts were? dont tell me anything secret, but was it just like normal banter?

23:28 Lord_Brendan or did he ever actually do any alliance stuff?

23:31 Lord_Brendan checking?

23:32 caleb[nato] 7 involved his training course, and i dont think i have permission to discuss the other 2.

23:35 Lord_Brendan ok, no worries

23:35 Lord_Brendan thanks alot

23:35 caleb[nato] your welcome

23:37 Lord_Brendan so he completed his training then?

23:40 caleb[nato] i think, dont remember if there were seven courses or not.

23:41 caleb[nato] cause thats the amount of posts he posted in his traning session

23:43 Lord_Brendan ok

23:43 Lord_Brendan thanks again

I'm going to guess the other two posts were something slightly-opsec like war sign-ins or the like. Doesn't really matter.

What does matter is that "President Magee" either didn't fully complete the training or he did nothing but the bare minimum to get a member mask. He made no intent to present himself as an active member and didn't put in much effort to gain higher access. If he did join NATO to spy, he was pretty terrible at it and at best got a list of NATO's warchests or learned that they were going on war alert, not exactly groundbreaking information or useful in the slightest.

I also find the suggestion in the OP that this had anything to do with the TPF situation preposterous.

We also find it unlikely that he would attempt infiltration of IRON and NATO if he did not intend to feed to his alliance whatever information he could glean from his access to the forums and IRC channels of those alliances---no doubt including, in the event, what information he could obtain regarding NATO's opinions, intentions and plans as regarded the currently-tense situation in the Cyberverse.

Ragnarok only found out about TPF's actions on December 26th and had no plans for war before that. Rish joined NATO a month prior and has not been active since then; the two situations cannot possibly be related.

I think the most plausible/likely answer is this:

-President Magee joins CN.

-Rishnokof joins CN (a different person is behind the account than Magee).

-President Magee founds the ISCO almost immediately; Rish joins shortly after.

-After ISCO merges into ARES they both join Ragnarok. At this point they are still two separate people. *I would like to request that Ragnarok verify this, I believe it can be done by checking the IPs on their forums.*

-Rish becomes a Triumvir of Ragnarok.

-Rish steps down as a Triumvir of Ragnarok.

-President Magee decides he's tired of CN, and gives his nation to his long-time CN friend, Rish.

-Rish uses the President Magee account to attempt to "spy", but doesn't really put much heart into it. He is not supported by the Ragnarok government, they have no knowledge of his actions and he does not give them any information (not that he really had anything to give).

-The multi is caught and both nations are deleted.

Does anyone see anything that doesn't hold together about this timeline?

Edited January 1, 2010 by Lord Brendan

[Havamil]

Spy:Hey boss, i just happen to know this little secret...........

Boss: Thanks thats really useful

End

Outcome plausible deniability

Spy: Hey boss, i just happen to know this little secret...........

Boss: Wow how did you know that?

Spy: ummmmm

Dont ask don"t tell

Simple concept eh?

[Mark Reynolds]

As the Premier of the Grey Council, I would have appreciated it if I had been notified of President Magee's apparent high level connection with Ragnarok as opposed to finding out about it by stumbling across this thread and seeing his nuclear aggression against us being cited as apparent evidence of Ragnarok evil. I might add that he launched simultaneous attacks against TOP and NSO and that neither attack was mentioned in the OP, even though TOP ended up bearing the brunt of the fighting.

We will meditate over the content of this thread in order to deliver a verdict that is both just and wise.

[shilo]

Did a bit of investigating:

I'm going to guess the other two posts were something slightly-opsec like war sign-ins or the like. Doesn't really matter.

What does matter is that "President Magee" either didn't fully complete the training or he did nothing but the bare minimum to get a member mask. He made no intent to present himself as an active member and didn't put in much effort to gain higher access. If he did join NATO to spy, he was pretty terrible at it and at best got a list of NATO's warchests or learned that they were going on war alert, not exactly groundbreaking information or useful in the slightest.

I also find the suggestion in the OP that this had anything to do with the TPF situation preposterous.

Ragnarok only found out about TPF's actions on December 26th and had no plans for war before that. Rish joined NATO a month prior and has not been active since then; the two situations cannot possibly be related.

I think the most plausible/likely answer is this:

-President Magee joins CN.

-Rishnokof joins CN (a different person is behind the account than Magee).

-President Magee founds the ISCO almost immediately; Rish joins shortly after.

-After ISCO merges into ARES they both join Ragnarok. At this point they are still two separate people. *I would like to request that Ragnarok verify this, I believe it can be done by checking the IPs on their forums.*

-Rish becomes a Triumvir of Ragnarok.

-Rish steps down as a Triumvir of Ragnarok.

-President Magee decides he's tired of CN, and gives his nation to his long-time CN friend, Rish.

-Rish uses the President Magee account to attempt to "spy", but doesn't really put much heart into it. He is not supported by the Ragnarok government, they have no knowledge of his actions and he does not give them any information (not that he really had anything to give).

-The multi is caught and both nations are deleted.

Does anyone see anything that doesn't hold together about this timeline?

So he was just spying a little, basically doing his basic training.

That means it naturally isn't worthy of starting a war, as there are several degrees of spying, punishable ranging from ZI of an individual nation ranging to permanent war of an entire alliance.

The punishment is decided based on Because we can, convenient to start a war at the moment, when you do it it's worse and generally hey he didn't spy badly.

Sure.

Edited January 1, 2010 by shilo

[NoFish]

Except for that hard throbbing evidence slapping you in the face.

Evidence of what, exactly? The only evidence that exists is that Rish was using the same IP as a guy who was in NATO. There is no proof that Rok obtained information from him, no proof that Rok government was complicit in it (Chairman Hal of all people has verified that there were no spy programs in Rok up to his resignation in Feb 2009), no proof, really, of anything - or even of the intent to do anything. It is no more proven that Rok was spying on NATO than that NATO was spying on Rok.

[Lord Brendan]

Spy:Hey boss, i just happen to know this little secret...........

Boss: Thanks thats really useful

End

Outcome plausible deniability

I mean no offense whatsoever to NATO. I am sure they have a nice community and as long as they enjoy what they're doing, more power to them.

That said... what kind of information does NATO have that Ragnarok would remotely care about? NATO hasn't done anything remotely interesting in over a year, if ever.

Spy: Hey boss guess what I hear NATO might be organising some tech deals

Boss: ALERT THE MILITARY! SEND OUT THE BAT SIGNAL!

[Tojamn]

Brainwashed minion responding as ordered

When any other alliance gets nailed or accused for multi's and or Spying: No excuses allowed! Let The Beatings Begin!

When a KARMA, Alliance member is caught doing almost the same thing they just punished other alliances for: It is ok and all is automatically forgiven, No harm no foul!

Gotcha!!, I understand completely now..

/me waits for further lies, erm Brainwashing techniques

Edited January 1, 2010 by Tojamn