Alright, let's make this simple

[James I]

Nope. Should have tried diplomacy first....atlist tried.

Not like it's the first war they've started lately. Who was the small alliance Athens just wiped the floor with because they were bored?

The poll is asking whether or not the casus belli were valid. That they should have sought a diplomatic resolution is not a reason to suggest the casus belli are invalid.

[zzzptm]

Ooh! Now the yesses are in the lead! What a lovely horse-race we have here!

[Lurunin]

The alliance leaders represent the alliance. If they make a mistake, the alliance bears the burden.

Conversely, if they do well, the alliance reaps the benefits.

meh, fair enough.....but back to my other point: How did Zero Hour get off the hook w/o any kind of attack on them as well?

because if Athens/Rok were pissed off enough to attack TPF you'd def think they'd still be pissed enough to attack the actual group that was spying on them...

[Inquisitor Tolkien]

meh, fair enough.....but back to my other point: How did Zero Hour get off the hook w/o any kind of attack on them as well?

because if Athens/Rok were pissed off enough to attack TPF you'd def think they'd still be pissed enough to attack the actual group that was spying on them...

I think the main point of why that didn't happen is that ZH came clean and confessed to it, whereas TPF did nothing of the sort. Had TPF said something during surrender terms etc., I'm sure it would've been handled fairly leniently. At the very least, it would've avoided war altogether (with ZH probably coming under fire).

[Dochartaigh]

And that's the exact same thing NPO would've said.

Might makes right!

every alliance has that regardless of what is said. if you honestly think your CB is legit and go to war over it are you gonna change your mind the moment your enemie's friends says that your CB is not legit? no most likely you won't. instead, you will tell them the CB is legit and that is that. or essentially Might makes right....

so that attitude is far more prevalent than everyone assumes, the difference with the NPO era is it was used in every situation including just talking out against NPO. i see quite a bit of talk against Athens without the NPO attitude from Athens.

so no it is not exactly the same as NPO, though keep trying. soon, ya'll will be able to wrap your argument 10,000 times around planet Bob by the way ya'll stretching them.

[Little Fame Monster]

Voted no. Any alliance with less pull than Athens tries to pull up a 6 month old CB would've never gotten away with a stunt like this.

[Mussolandia]

Going by Moldavi's First Law on Spying, the Casus Belli is as valid as they always have been. It continues a long tradition as old as the world itself.

Logically, it could backfire should it happen to someone on the other side. The possibility of this occurring is high.

I'm personally, like many others, hoping for a major conflict where both sides destroy each other.

[Cheshire]

I don't get people some times, conspiracy to commit (anything) is still a chargeable offense.

[Lord Boris]

If this war was justified, a war in which 4 alliances declared war on 1 months after something had occurred and one in which no harm was actually done...

then clearly you must also believe that One Vision was justified in attacking GATO, because let's recap that situation:

4 alliances declared on 1 months after something had occurred and one in which no harm was actually done.

Congrats, CN. You've finally taken this one full circle.

[Dochartaigh]

If this war was justified, a war in which 4 alliances declared war on 1 months after something had occurred and one in which no harm was actually done...

then clearly you must also believe that One Vision was justified in attacking GATO, because let's recap that situation:

4 alliances declared on 1 months after something had occurred and one in which no harm was actually done.

Congrats, CN. You've finally taken this one full circle.

difference is, GATO was bound by treaty terms and broke them in the 1V war.

Athens never knew of the crime committed against them and thus was never able to have justice done. also, TPF attempted to destroy Athens, i think ya'll keep forgetting that or ignoring it. regardless of whether it was aborted, the attempt was made.

[Venizelos]

what kind of question is this

ATTACKING TPF IS ALWAYS JUSTIFIED

btw i saw some people comparing this to GATO-1V

if you make that kind of a comparison you don't know ANYTHING about that war and what went down so shut up about it.

Edited December 31, 2009 by Venizelos

[Lord Razzia]

TPF attempted to destroy Athens, i think ya'll keep forgetting that or ignoring it. regardless of whether it was aborted, the attempt was made.

But it was 6 months ago during another war...

[Prime minister Johns]

But it was 6 months ago during another war...

Attacking another alliance during a war is the whole point of a war.

And the TPF were in a situation of facing eternal war at the time. So they came up with a desperation tactic that might of worked and scrapped the plan when they finally obtained peace and it was no longer needed.

[Kindom of Goon]

But it was 6 months ago during another war...

I keep hearing people going on about it being 6 months ago, what relevance does that have?

That fact that it was during another war makes no difference either since they were not at war with the alliances they targetted, it's like moaning about being sent to prison for a robbery because you've already been sent to prison in the past for another robbery.

Edited January 1, 2010 by Kindom of Goon

[Lord Brendan]

If this war was justified, a war in which 4 alliances declared war on 1 months after something had occurred and one in which no harm was actually done...

then clearly you must also believe that One Vision was justified in attacking GATO, because let's recap that situation:

4 alliances declared on 1 months after something had occurred and one in which no harm was actually done.

Congrats, CN. You've finally taken this one full circle.

Well, the difference is that in TPF's case the government was complicit in a spying plot with malicious intent towards Athens & Co. In GATO's case they had an ex-member reroll into their alliance without their knowing and serve as low level government, without any intent whatsoever to do anything to NPO or anyone else. They found out it was him after he had already left.

Also, I seem to recall an alliance or three honoring their treaties back then. Not so much the case now.

[Dochartaigh]

But it was 6 months ago during another war...

actually 4 months was when it was aborted. began 6 months ago. as for another war, that excuses not a damn thing at all. TPF and Athens were never at war. regardless of what anyone says. if they were, did Athens give TPF white peace? doubt it. they would have taken reps from TPF if they were at war with them. i saw nothing about reps towards Athens in the terms that TPF got.

this excuse is weak. very very weak.

Attacking another alliance during a war is the whole point of a war.

And the TPF were in a situation of facing eternal war at the time. So they came up with a desperation tactic that might of worked and scrapped the plan when they finally obtained peace and it was no longer needed.

serious? TPF put themselves in that position. no one else did. also, NPO surrendered on July 16th iirc. TPF did not end it on July 16th did they? oh wait, ZH ended it on Aug 2nd.

so what is all this bs about TPF using it as a desperate tactic to end the eternal war they forced upon themselves? considering the plan continued on after the only reason they stayed in the war was gone, it does not seem it had anything to do with the war but instead was done for another reason altogether. had it ended on or about July 16th/17th and ended by TPF, not ZH, i would say you had a point. but that did not happen so you have absolutely no point.

the fact that it continued for over 2 weeks after NPO surrendered shows that TPF had a very different reason for starting this plan.

Well, the difference is that in TPF's case the government was complicit in a spying plot with malicious intent towards Athens & Co. In GATO's case they had an ex-member reroll into their alliance without their knowing and serve as low level government, without any intent whatsoever to do anything to NPO or anyone else. They found out it was him after he had already left.

Also, I seem to recall an alliance or three honoring their treaties back then. Not so much the case now.

actually, one person in gov knew CK was in gov. and that one person was high up in gov and admitted to it.

[Geoffron X]

Interesting how evenly split the poll is. If people could put their money where their mouth is, so to speak, this could get fun.

Edited January 2, 2010 by Geoffron X

[Blacky]

1) Athens did not act alone.

2) The CB was legit 6 months ago. Today? Nope. Absolutely not.

[Blacky]

actually 4 months was when it was aborted. began 6 months ago. as for another war, that excuses not a damn thing at all.

So in the last war Nemesis nations attacked Legion/BAPS/AB, etc. Using your logic they have a valid CB against us today. You have to look at things in the time-frame from which they happened. CBs like everything else have expiration dates -- and it's not even arbitrarily set at a certain amount of time just in the context in which they occured. TPF's actions were in the context of the Karma war. The Karma war is over. As such the CB is no longer valid. This coming from somebody who absolutely hates TPF and thinks highly of Athens.

[Bob]

So in the last war Nemesis nations attacked Legion/BAPS/AB, etc. Using your logic they have a valid CB against us today. You have to look at things in the time-frame from which they happened. CBs like everything else have expiration dates -- and it's not even arbitrarily set at a certain amount of time just in the context in which they occured. TPF's actions were in the context of the Karma war. The Karma war is over. As such the CB is no longer valid. This coming from somebody who absolutely hates TPF and thinks highly of Athens.

No, they weren't Blacky.

TPF was not at war with Athens or RoK, or you would be correct.

Also, Nemesis signed peace with Legion/BAPS/AB, did we not? We didn't spy on say, TPF or that would be a valid CB.

Edited January 2, 2010 by Penlugue Solaris

[Doitzel]

So in the last war Nemesis nations attacked Legion/BAPS/AB, etc. Using your logic they have a valid CB against us today.

No. You guys made peace. Athens and TPF never negotiated terms of ending conflict, because Athens was unaware they were involved in direct conflict with TPF.

[Dochartaigh]

So in the last war Nemesis nations attacked Legion/BAPS/AB, etc. Using your logic they have a valid CB against us today. You have to look at things in the time-frame from which they happened. CBs like everything else have expiration dates -- and it's not even arbitrarily set at a certain amount of time just in the context in which they occured. TPF's actions were in the context of the Karma war. The Karma war is over. As such the CB is no longer valid. This coming from somebody who absolutely hates TPF and thinks highly of Athens.

wait wha? that is just retarded and not even close to what i said. i stated that TPF attempted espionage to spy and destroy Athens while not being at war with Athens. neither did TPF come clean about this attempted action and thus, Athens did not actually get any sort of reps or justice 4 months ago when TPF surrendered to a select group of alliances which did not include Athens in the list of signatures.

just because TPF's actions occurred during the Karma war does not mean they get to escape justice. they were not punished by the Karma war for those actions. the peace terms do not reflect any punishment by Athens nor do the peace terms reflect any compensation from TPF towards Athens for those actions, so to even attempt to quote it is the most ridiculous bs argument ever spouted.

also CBs do not have expiration dates. if the information was just found out and the people behind the actions are still in gov (hint, mhawk is still the leader of TPF...) then how does a CB expire? i could possibly see if all the gov officials who knew about it were gone or no longer in gov but the main conspirator is still the top guy at TPF.

Bob and Doitz both covered the other areas well so i won't repeat them.

[Blacky]

No, they weren't Blacky.

TPF was not at war with Athens or RoK, or you would be correct.

Also, Nemesis signed peace with Legion/BAPS/AB, did we not? We didn't spy on say, TPF or that would be a valid CB.

I agree but you seem to have neglected the rest of my post. The context was a global war with two opposing sides. Again I don't care enough to argue this point, but in my opinion the CB was invalid.