As I troll

[tamerlane]

I am not normally one to post actual topics on this board -mostly out of my own distaste for the quality of posts that are made here- I find myself with an urge to post something to try and emphasize what I consider to be the most important factors of the current political engagement and hopefully bring some focus to the current debate. I would prefer people not use this thread to discuss whether Athens or TPF were at war or whether they think navy is a cooler shade of blue than aqua. Stick to what is known and within the bounds of what I have presented. If you have information that is different from mine, please share it for consideration.

[thread]

Historically, spying has been considered a heinous crime among alliances and there are enough examples of spying constituting a CB to shake a stick at. While there are many cases of spying constituting, many of which supported by this war's biggest detractors, the only recorded cases of an alliance infiltrating another with the expressed purpose of wreaking havoc among that alliance's community are exclusively derived from FAN. Before going any further with this line of thought, I want to establish the "known" factors of the current case.

What is Known:

That during their war with Karma and in light of what looked to be an eternal war, TPF plotted to infiltrate certain alliances with proxy alliances through mergers with the expressed purpose of spying and causing harm to the communities of those alliances.

Two of the alliances in question were Athens and RoK.

Zero Hour, one of the intended proxy alliances, was created after such plans had been hatched. *There were plans to create Zero Hour before this but according to the timeline, the alliance did not form until after*

Zero Hour became an Athens protectorate in July.

Zero Hour decided to forgo their plans and informed TPF of their intent to do so on August 2nd.

Neither Zero Hour nor TPF disclosed these plans. TPF did not do so during their surrender terms and Zero Hour failed to inform their ally Athens of their intent to spy on them despite their having signed an agreement stipulating shared information.

On December 24th, Zero Hour discloses their prior intents to Athens and RoK nearly 4 months and informs them of TPF's involvement.

Athens and RoK declare war on TPF without warning.

As Im sure you can already tell, this case is quite different from that of FAN's. Why? Well Ill outline that...

Key Differences:

FANs spy attempts were discovered during the course of their extended war with just about every alliance in power pre-Karma War.

FAN's punishment was well expressed in the increasing severity of their surrender terms and, in most cases, refusal to end the war.

FAN's spies actually infiltrated alliances.

FAN's spies succeeded in their missions.

What are we left with? Well thats the most interesting part! Because the closest thing we have to a precedent is FAN's example which differs greatly from the current model. Precedent supports the notion that something be done to TPF as punishment for their crimes at the time of the war. However, is there a statute of limitations for crimes in CN? If there was a spy sent over to an alliance a year ago and that spy returns and the information not disclosed until now, does that constitute a CB? What is an appropriate punishment? These are things I would like to see discussed in this thread.

Since we are on new ground, here is how I see it...

TPF was in the wrong for not disclosing these plans after the conclusion of the war. They had plans to enact them and they were implemented - with success until August 2nd, those facts are indisputable. Just because the relationship between TPF and ZH may or may not have been strained, the operation did not cease until a month after it was implemented. The operation did occur as far as I am concerned and for that reason, it should have been disclosed during TPF's surrender talks had TPF not wanted this to be revisited in the future. It doesn't matter if things worked out or whether it occurred during wartime or peace time, spying and sabotage has never been considered acceptable in either situation. It may have seemed prudent to their leadership at the time but it was a serious lapse of judgment. Their failure to disclose has lead them onto a path where the prosecuting alliances feel it is their right to seek vengeance for the actions intended and actions committed. Did TPF intend on ceasing the operation at surrender? We will never know and, frankly, it doesn't matter. One clandestine operation was already implemented and they chose at the moment of surrender not to disclose that to the Karma Coalition and thus robbing them of their chance to determine whether or not punishment should be given.

Zero Hour was certainly in the wrong for taking so long to disclose and their treaty with Athens should be considered voided due to violating Article 4 of their protectorate agreement. While I am not going to weigh in on the rationale for waiting so long to disclose what had happened, the fact that Athenian/ZH relations up till December 24th were based upon a lie (well, rather an omission) should be more than enough reason for that to be dropped and actions be taken against ZH.

I am not sure where I stand on the issue of attacking without warning. Frankly, I can see good points and am having a hard time deciding which side of the fence I agree with most.

[/thread]

Anyway.... As my final plea, I ask you all to stay on topic and not continue to argue some of the crap I've been seen thrown around in AP.

Edited December 30, 2009 by tamerlane

[Prime minister Johns]

Let's not forget Vox Populi, when discussing spies.

[janax]

It's all good. I expect the surrender terms this war to involve disclosure of ALL DISCUSSIONS of attacking other alliances. When someone doesn't give one up and logs are found later, they'll have a valid CB.

Welcome to the brave new world.

[Anu Drake]

Love you Tam, very well said. Disagree on many points, but enjoyed the read anyway.

[Nobody Expects]

I agree that there is a PR war to be fought, but I have conversed with several prominent members of alliances who would step in to defend those arrayed against TPF. All of them have acknowledged privately that the CB is noCB, but they don't want to let that fact get in the way of a good war.

So MK et al can make thread after thread trying to justify it, but most of CN knows the CB doesn't stand up, CN also doesn't really care because they just want their war.

So can we all just give these threads a rest now, agree the CB sucks, and war well hey who knows......

Edited December 30, 2009 by Nobody Expects

[tamerlane]

It's all good. I expect the surrender terms this war to involve disclosure of ALL DISCUSSIONS of attacking other alliances. When someone doesn't give one up and logs are found later, they'll have a valid CB.

Welcome to the brave new world.

Did you just see this thread and post without reading its content?

[tamerlane]

double post :-\

Edited December 30, 2009 by tamerlane

[Rush Sykes]

I think that one other fact of note was omitted in the time line. Well, at least I think it is of note.

TPF held fast to the notion that they believed they were in a never-ending war. As they stated over and over, they "heard" that NPO would never receive peace, and by their own doctrine of not abandoning NPO on the battlefield, they too would never receive peace. However, NPO achieved peace on July 16th. ZH, NOT TPF, opted out of this operation on August 2. The is 17 full days of TPF sticking with this plan, even though they now KNEW they were not in an eternal war. For ME, this is the most important factor in my belief of this CB as valid.

[janax]

No, I read it. If something has been ended either by a peace settlement or falling out, it's still ended. No acts carried on past the war validating a new CB in my mind.

You say it does, or a least are defending Athens in saying it does.

We'll agree to disagree on that point.

However, I do think planning for a war and making target lists without a proper DoW is plotting the demise of another alliance as well. So that should also all come out in any peace agreement or be the basis for a cb in the future if they "lie by omission" and don't confess to all possible sins.

[tamerlane]

Let's not forget Vox Populi, when discussing spies.

Yes, VP is another issue of note but they did not stick around as an alliance and Im not sure if I would agree they ever were an alliance, per se. Then again, that would be semantics. So yes, VP should be discussed and I apologize for not including them... Feel free though to bring them into the discussion.

Edited December 30, 2009 by tamerlane

[Petrovich4]

The CB is justified and if I were in Athens shoes I would have rolled asap as well.

The only issue I have is the way Athens has conducted themselves in the MASH thread - other then that, TPF should be rolled due to this CB (outlined in the OP and in previous posts).

GL C&G

[tamerlane]

No, I read it. If something has been ended either by a peace settlement or falling out, it's still ended. No acts carried on past the war validating a new CB in my mind.

You say it does, or a least are defending Athens in saying it does.

We'll agree to disagree on that point.

However, I do think planning for a war and making target lists without a proper DoW is plotting the demise of another alliance as well. So that should also all come out in any peace agreement or be the basis for a cb in the future if they "lie by omission" and don't confess to all possible sins.

Thats a strawman argument and you know it. The issue is spying not alliances plotting war or carrying out war.

[Prime minister Johns]

Yes, VP is another issue of note but they did not stick around as an alliance and Im not sure if I would agree they ever were an alliance, per se. Then again, that would be semantics. So yes, VP should be discussed and I apologize for not including them... Feel free though to bring them into the discussion.

Well Francesca did manage to infiltrate the MXCA so successfully that she managed to get elected as minister of foreign affairs. link

But this spy incident was brushed under the carpet since they happened to end up on the winning side of the war.

It would seem that its more appropriate to say that spying is unforgivable only if you lose the war, but it is perfectly acceptable for the wining side to use them.

[janax]

The issue is attempted spying during an active global war. If there was any proof it continued after the peace was signed, I'd not be even having this argument, but we have ZH's own admission that they called it off before TPF got peace.

edit: since people like to bring up the attempted murder angle, planning a murder (making up target lists and enlisting allies) is also a crime in the nation of Krymson, and many others, just like trying and failing to kill someone is. If Alliance X plans a pre-emptive strike on Alliance A, but calls has it called off because Allliance Y won't take part, I think it's JUST as valid a threat as attempted spying.

Edited December 30, 2009 by janax

[ChairmanHal]

Interesting analysis, however some points that you seemed to miss:

1. While there was agreement between TPF and ZH regarding carrying out the op, there is no evidence that ZH actually did anything to "sabotage the community of Athens". If anything, it appears that ZH "went native" almost from their departure and the whole op was a complete failure.

2. Let's assume that the Karma War had not been fought and the op had been carried out--and the result was the same. I would argue that the case for war would still be rather weak (time, result, etc.), but TPF would have a rather difficult time finding defenders and TPF would be a laughing stock. Ah, but that's the rub. If there was not a war, there would be no op nor any valid reason for the op. You cannot separate the two as some are attempting.

3. What then, assuming that one feels they should be punished, is a fit punishment for TPF's actions? Heavy reps? They paid them. A crushing war? They went through that too over the summer. Public ridicule? Had war not been declared this month, there would have been volumes of it and as stated above once everything came out, and few defenders willing to do more than engage in 40+ pages of OWRP thread banter. But remember back to the summer, they went through a significant amount of ridicule then as well.

We're left with a puzzling spectacle of an unjustified war, being propped up by rhetoric that better supports a couple weeks of public forum humiliation and an apology thread at the end by TPF. We're left with a war bred of boredom and militancy. That would be fine 2 years ago...in certain circles...but wasn't there supposed to be a higher standard set for warfare by those that fought against Electron Sponge and for Karma? Or was that, like much of everything else, so much talk on the way to accomplishing a goal?

Edited December 30, 2009 by ChairmanHal

[Arthur Blair]

I don't care how long ago it was or what circumstances the offending alliance was under.

If someone initiates plans to destroy my alliance when I'm not even at war with them, they fail and never own up to it, and then I learn of it later... I will attack. How is that not a primary case for war?

Anyone who does NOT attack must be out of their minds.

It would be my responsibility to protect my alliance POSTHASTE against an enemy that I didn't even know existed up until that point. Any delay could further solidify a defeat I didn't even see coming.

[Qaianna]

The issue is attempted spying during an active global war. If there was any proof it continued after the peace was signed, I'd not be even having this argument, but we have ZH's own admission that they called it off before TPF got peace.

edit: since people like to bring up the attempted murder angle, planning a murder (making up target lists and enlisting allies) is also a crime in the nation of Krymson, and many others, just like trying and failing to kill someone is. If Alliance X plans a pre-emptive strike on Alliance A, but calls has it called off because Allliance Y won't take part, I think it's JUST as valid a threat as attempted spying.

I guess the line's a little awkward. Many alliances I think would at least plan out what to do in case of war, whether or not it is on their doorstep. Even if nothing more than an exercise in war planning, it would happen. Would this be considered a casus belli?

It appears that Prime Minister Johns has rather accurately summed up some people's opinions of spying in that it is prohibited unless it's on your side. There's another word for this, of course.

[ChairmanHal]

Additional Note: I find completely amusing the notion that a few people could actually "sabotage the community of Athens", as if the community that makes up the Athens alliances would be that fragile. I recall OcUK stating PUBLICLY that they had infiltrated Rok with the intent of of sabotaging the Rok community from the inside. Our response? Sarcastically present the leader of OcUK (by then a 1-2 member "alliance") with a Recruiter medal, complete with a OWRP award ceremony.

Point being, there were many, many ways this whole affair could have been handled differently short of war. That war has come now speaks more about the mindset of Athens and Co. than it does about TPF.

[Lord Brendan]

Time passing doesn't really diminish guilt; if it was a valid CB the day they did it and they never accounted for it, it's a valid CB years after if somebody discovers it. There is a lot of precedent for this interpretation, and most if not all of the current detractors have agreed with it.

For example GATO was attacked for a 7-month old infraction of year old surrender terms. That war was supported by IRON, MCXA, NATO, TOOL, Echelon, Legion, TORN and TPF itself, among others.

I guess the important point is whether or not TPF's surrender terms accounted for actions TPF had not come clean about, or for actions against alliances not party to the surrender terms.

[Merrie Melodies]

Additional Note: I find completely amusing the notion that a few people could actually "sabotage the community of Athens", as if the community that makes up the Athens alliances would be that fragile. I recall OcUK stating PUBLICLY that they had infiltrated Rok with the intent of of sabotaging the Rok community from the inside. Our response? Sarcastically present the leader of OcUK (by then a 1-2 member "alliance") with a Recruiter medal, complete with a OWRP award ceremony.

Point being, there were many, many ways this whole affair could have been handled differently short of war. That war has come now speaks more about the mindset of Athens and Co. than it does about TPF.

For the love of all that is holy, please don't include us as Athens "Co."

We rolled for RoK and RoK only.

[Kalabac]

I am not normally one to post actual topics on this board -mostly out of my own distaste for the quality of posts that are made here- I find myself

So, what you are saying is that you are smug and style yourself superior to people on this board? Ah, cool.

[Lenex]

I don't care how long ago it was or what circumstances the offending alliance was under.

If someone initiates plans to destroy my alliance when I'm not even at war with them, they fail and never own up to it, and then I learn of it later... I will attack. How is that not a primary case for war?

Anyone who does NOT attack must be out of their minds.

It would be my responsibility to protect my alliance POSTHASTE against an enemy that I didn't even know existed up until that point. Any delay could further solidify a defeat I didn't even see coming.

I would die to know why people keep ignoring this fact, it keeps being brought up and it continues to be ignored.

[HalfEmpty]

TPF held fast to the notion that they believed they were in a never-ending war.

Lucky for us that wasn't the ummmm, case.

Karma cat is purring somewhere.

[Rush Sykes]

TPF held fast to the notion that they believed they were in a never-ending war.

Lucky for us that wasn't the ummmm, case.

Karma cat is purring somewhere.

I suppose that could I not come up with a valid reason that the op carried on for 17 days after TPF finally KNEW that their entire reason for believing the war would never end was no longer present, I would make a snide comment about one snippet of text too.

[King Chill I]

Spying is fun and should be an integral part of the politics of the game.

Of course when caught, on the case by case basis id fully support ZI of the entire gov and spies involved.