The Phoenix Federation Response to war.

[AirMe]

I honestly can launch a defense for either side in this argument but the stupidity that TPF and friends are basing their current defense on is making it very easy to me to side with Athens.

[Triyun]

how is my argument ridiculous? the terms for FAN was to be destroyed and suffer war for as long as NPO wanted..... that is nothing like the terms that TPF got.

i never once stated that ya'll did not have reason to pursue those nations, i know those reasons. i simply stated that what iamthey's argument of they could have simply re-rolled being false, since regardless of whether they would actually get MPs or not did not matter, since the threat was still there.

as for using a months old CB, i do remember 1V vs GATO and that old $@! CB that NPO foamed at the mouth to use. so how do you find it astounding?

as for no info being exchanged, so a failed spy attempt is okay now? hardly.

as for the "cheering" over TWiP- again no one said a thing when Vox was declared on for spying so you point is what exactly? oh that is right, you really do not have one. you are just attempting to use this to make your side look better or to make Karma seem worse than it is.

i love how the old Heg people keep spouting off at the mouth about things that Karma stood for that were never stated by Karma and has only been stated by the old Heg people.

I can tell you that its simply not true. In private conversations and public radio shows on CN radio, I distinctly remember Moo say that the terms to end the FAN War were FAN coming out of peace mode and fighting the war. Now either Moo was lying about this to his own government (in which case let me buy you a new tin foil hat), or its very similar to Karma's surrender terms to the NPO. These were the terms for Karma to accept the surrender of the NPO. As TPF stood by its ally (hardly a crime, unless you've changed another aspect of your supposed morality while I wasn't looking). TPF during this time looked into developing a contingency predicated on the NPO not getting peace. FAN's plans were predicated on FAN not getting peace. How is this different other than the parallels are inconvenient for you at this moment?

The NPO did not use an old CB in terms of the GATO War. The NPO had a specific clause in the terms of GATO's surrender at the end of the war where Chris Kaos could not be part of any new post war government. He was, we can argue whether or not that clause should have been lifted if asked by GATO over a year after the end of hostilities but that is not the same thing. This is in stark contrast to TPF being punished for discussing but not implementing covert operations in a wartime environment for which it had already been given peace and then not implementing those plans. Its apples and oranges.

And yes, people did go on about how Vox was not given peace while it was still engaged in active spying. Secondly, Vox declared war on the New Pacific Order in its declaration of existence. So really you are twisting history around for convenience sake, sorry

[2burnt2eat]

That argument again? Do you read before posting or do you just like to hear yourself talk? Athens didn't fight TPF during the Karma War. So, tell me how are the Karma War, Athens and TPF related in that matter?

What argument again? I don't believe I brought up this peace treaty that everyone is loving playing semantics with, I'm pretty sure I brought up the time all of this occurred. The only reference I made to the Karma War was that it was in the same time period. What I'm bringing up is how old this issue is.

Do you read before posting or do you just like to hear yourself talk?

[Bob]

post here

I'd like to see a reply to my post here.

Did Pacifica spy during the war or actively plan to?

Or are you just defending TPF by saying its alright to, when your own alliance was unwilling?

[ChairmanHal]

Ok, I am going to say it and only say it once you dumb arses.

The information WASN'T STORED AWAY! In the DoW from Athens, they didn't know about it until a few days ago.

Now that we have THAT FACT. You can proceed with accusing Athens of having a time machine and telling them they should have used it to go ahead in time to discover the threat that they didn't know about until 3 days ago.

Also basing the defense the surrender terms being signed by "Karma" is LOL. Go get a real defense and come back.

Thank you come again.

You understand that whether Athens knew all along or Athens found out this morning over breakfast is an irrelevant point to most people who are in opposition to their current CB, right?

[Bob]

You understand that whether Athens knew all along or Athens found out this morning over breakfast is an irrelevant point to most people who are in opposition to their current CB, right?

You do realize that 2burnt2eat was saying that Athens had stored up the CB and that's why AirMe flipped out because 2burnt2eat was being ridiculous.

[Alterego]

Also basing the defense the surrender terms being signed by "Karma" is LOL. Go get a real defense and come back.

Does repeating the lie make it easier to swallow?

Do I feel as though this is justified? Not particularly. To me it's a wartime offense that was cleared.

[Triyun]

I'd like to see a reply to my post here.

Did Pacifica spy during the war or actively plan to?

Or are you just defending TPF by saying its alright to, when your own alliance was unwilling?

Pacifica did not spy during the war or actively plan to. I am explaining that TPFs actions were undertaken in a wartime environment during which it was defending its ally.

[Moridin]

Secondly, Vox declared war on the New Pacific Order in its declaration of existence. So really you are twisting history around for convenience sake, sorry

No we did not. We never declared war on NPO, the state of war existed after you took offense to our possession of a senate seat. So really you are twisting history around for convenience sake, sorry.

Edited December 27, 2009 by Moridin

[junkahoolik]

You are wrong. Learn your history before resorting to insults.

NPO had a much smaller version of this happen, and they tried to handle it diplomatically and messed it up quite terribly. No one has condemned NPO for attacking ODN during the Citrus War or PWII attacking NAAC during Karma, because there was proof of spying.

There is proof here. There is no justice but war for those alliance leaders who spy in the Cyberverse.

but everyone condemned NPO for attacking OV when the negotiations failed. i'm not saying that npo did a great job during these negotiations, they sucked really badly, but the fact remains: you jumped in for the defense of a spy. argue what you want, a spy is a spy is a spy is a spy.

[AirMe]

You understand that whether Athens knew all along or Athens found out this morning over breakfast is an irrelevant point to most people who are in opposition to their current CB, right?

You realize that I realize that. Does that mean we agree that the CB really is valid? Because I don't know if I can handle agreeing with you and Xiphosis in the same month.

[Farrin Xies]

Good luck to you, TPF. Your friends wish you the best.

[Dochartaigh]

I did not forget.

I confess I do not have all the information and while I have read most of the relevant threads there is some issue with time that I do not understand, and it is perhaps the nature of our disagreement. It is agreed by all parties (I think) that Zero Hour defected and the plot was foiled. What does not seem agreed is when Zero Hour forfeited its mission, and for what span of time TPF was involved in the plot to destabilize Athens. At least, this is not clear to me.

in all honesty, it is not that clear to me either. but what is clear is that TPF knew of the intentions of ZH and did nothing to forewarn Athens.

There are any number of reasons TPF might not have gone to Athens with this information, and fear seems most likely to me, although you could be correct that they wanted to continue their plot. Mhawk must have realized the embarrassing hypocrisy in setting up an alliance to spy on Athens while condemning Ordo Verde for something far more innocuous, and he may not have wanted anyone to see that, or might have feared for his status as a result of that information being made public. Yes, it could have been because TPF wanted to continue to try and undermine Athens, or it could have been an attempt to save face after a war that cost them PR. I do not know.

either way, they actively (yes actively) allowed for the actions of ZH to take place. if it was just to save face, i would say they would have saved more face coming forward and having ZH take the lumps than by hiding it and allowing ZH to continue (regardless of whether they did or did not continue does not matter as according to mhawk's story, contact stopped in July, thus TPF could only have assumed that the plan was still on).

I would disagree with your hypothetical, and instead say this is more like Polaris attacking TOP six months later for a plot destroy it. The span of time is important to this conflict: GATO is not going to attack NPO if it found conclusive evidence that NPO spied on them during GWII. Similarly, Athens probably would not have attacked TPF over this if this information was discovered a year from now. I understand I am simply drawing arbitrary lines, but when the plot is long since dismantled, there is no urgency about a conflict like this. I still would have preferred diplomacy.

didn't Polaris attack GATO for a CB that was over 6 months old?

i would say that the urgency is ensuring that a precedent is not set about spying during war-time. as it stands if TPF and friends get their way, spying will become normal during war-time and acceptable. i would say this war is partly to ensure that that precedent is not set but mostly about TPF's actions and their lack of actions.

i am unclear why an arbitrary length of time honestly matters? 5 months (july-Dec= 5 months) is not that long of a time.

[AirMe]

Does repeating the lie make it easier to swallow?

Opinions are like buttholes, we all have them.

[Felix von Agnu]

well the difference between you and me, is if my old friends did something i found despicable, yes i would "tattle-tale" on them, why, because my code of conduct is obviously much more reliable than yours.

Friends come first with me. That doesn't make my code of conduct less reliable than yours. Nice try at a personal attack though. Great job!

from all the outrage about spying done by Vox and FAN, i would think that spying on any alliance regardless of ties, would be given the same outrage by TPF but that is obviously not the case. thus, your word is quite useless as why is it awful when done to you but not when done to Athens?

so, now you are saying that Athens cannot spy on TPF's allies unless those allies jump into the war? what happened to spying being okay under wartime conditions? Athens is at war, thus, it is a war time situation for them regardless of the status of TPF's allies being in or not in the war.

Athens was at war when it was "spied" upon. Its not rocket science.

i am not dizzy in the least. i am simply trying to figure out why TPF thinks it is okay to spy on Athens when they so obviously felt differently when it happened to them? once the war was over with, you would figure that TPF would have come forward since ya know, it was only war-time actions and thus no big deal, amirite???????

why then did TPF never come forward if all this was such a minor nothing? could it be that it is a major something and TPF and friends are only using the "war-time"actions as a way to stop TPF from getting the punishment it deserves?

that is the way i feel it is. if it was no big deal, TPF should have come forward but didn't. so obviously it is a much bigger deal than ya'll want to let on.

Why didn't TPF come forward about this when the war was over? If you really need to ask this question, I guess the several DoWs don't provide a good enough answer.

[Felix von Agnu]

Opinions are like buttholes, we all have them.

And they all stink.

[Bob]

but everyone condemned NPO for attacking OV when the negotiations failed. i'm not saying that npo did a great job during these negotiations, they sucked really badly, but the fact remains: you jumped in for the defense of a spy. argue what you want, a spy is a spy is a spy is a spy.

A spy?

He accepted information from a spying alliance, he did not actively spy.

And yes, they defended their allies, as I hope TPF's allies are planning to do and not be cowards.

You have not shown one ounce of hypocrisy here.

[Dochartaigh]

but everyone condemned NPO for attacking OV when the negotiations failed. i'm not saying that npo did a great job during these negotiations, they sucked really badly, but the fact remains: you jumped in for the defense of a spy. argue what you want, a spy is a spy is a spy is a spy.

actually that dude in Blackstone was the spy not OV. OV accepted info from Blackstone. something that NPO and others have done since CN began essentially.

so, OV never spied, nor did they actively send out spies into NPO and thus, your argument fails.

[potato]

Does repeating the lie make it easier to swallow?

LM is in TOP. And I don't think he's gov't. He's not in Athens, that's for sure.

Athens, who didn't directly fight TPF during Karma (although they were on opposing fronts), don't feel the matter is resolved. In fact, they heard about it 3 days ago. They're acting upon it now. In the way THEY feel is adequate. Not LM. Not TOP. Not anybody else.

Edited December 27, 2009 by potato

[Triyun]

No we did not. We never declared war on NPO, the state of war existed after you took offense to our possession of a senate seat. So really you are twisting history around for convenience sake, sorry.

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=30981

Tl;dr: Vox Populi reforms, and we are signing an MDP with Andromeda. We looked in their direction and they said we had nice eyes, so we allied. Then I remembered what Diplomacy was. Vox Populi hereby cancels the MDP with Andromeda and declares on Valhalla, GGA, all our others who seek to crush freedom, and those who force you to live in fear.

I believe we qualified as "others" and even if we didn't you declared war on Valhalla which under the Collective Defense Clause of the Mobius Accords was taken as a declaration of war on all signatories, therefore counter as an attack on Pacifica itself. And even if that didn't qualify as a declaration of war on the New Pacific Order, your attack on GGA was considered a declaration of war based on the One Vision Accords.... so yeah, you declared war the day you did your DoE.

[Bob]

Why didn't TPF come forward about this when the war was over? If you really need to ask this question, I guess the several DoWs don't provide a good enough answer.

I think I do need an answer actually. They were already at war, why not use full disclosure? The alliances against them would have let them off eventually for it, and this would not have happened. They basically just got to take a breather from the war, because they were unwilling to admit to their actions during the war against uninvolved parties.

[JBone]

A simple coming clean about this all those months ago could have avoided this, considering the rumors of that "falling out" one should have assumed at some point bad would come of it.

I hope everone takes notes, when peace comes in a war and you are on the losing end, come clean on all war time activities. End the war.

MM....if we had to have a come to Jesus thread about all the things we plotted/planned/talked about during that war we would put Londos little I'm Sorry fest to shame.

Most reasonable folks would think what went down during war ends when.............. that war ends.

[bigwoody]

There is proof here. There is no justice but war for those alliance leaders who spy in the Cyberverse.

Lets be honest here, its not the CBs that matter, its who is backing you. Whether this CB is valid or not, thats always been the case.

[Bob]

Most reasonable folks would think what went down during war ends when.............. that war ends.

Its unfortunate that you were not at war with Athens or RoK, or this argument would stick.

Please keep it up

[potato]

What argument again? I don't believe I brought up this peace treaty that everyone is loving playing semantics with, I'm pretty sure I brought up the time all of this occurred. The only reference I made to the Karma War was that it was in the same time period. What I'm bringing up is how old this issue is.

Do you read before posting or do you just like to hear yourself talk?

Again, Athens only heard about 3 days ago.