Overrated Alliance Government

[AlmightyGrub]

"You"? I was under surrender terms (signed by yourself) at the time these events took place.

You = VE.

Sexy terms no doubt.

[Lord Brendan]

You = VE.

Sexy terms no doubt.

My signature is pretty old, time for a new one.

Actually the terms weren't that great, I think we paid reps to you despite not attacking you at all (same with some other alliances but it hurt especially from Polar since we had had a treaty). And MCXA made us vote for their senator, that pissed a lot of us off. Other than that, decent enough terms.

Edited October 8, 2009 by Lord Brendan

[Gopherbashi]

Going back to the original point (which itself was a bit of a tangent), do we all agree that VE was at least reasonably justified in canceling on Polar and as such can be excluded from the list of those who just dropped them just because they sensed war was coming?

I really don't believe that was the original point. "A bit" would make that tangent, well, underrated.

[Penkala]

Are you kidding? This has to be the dumbest statement I have ever heard on here in awhile. Fundamental aspects of CN policy? Which are what? Private channels ftw? Win PR points? Screw that, I did what I felt was the neccessary course of action at the time. I could care less about your laws of Cyber Nations, I got enough laws to worry about, not random CN etiquette BS.

Which is that you don't threaten an alliance because of their inability to remove someone from an AA which is, you know, impossible. You know full well you didn't do it because you thought it was necessary, you did it because you wanted to pick on someone for once rather than be picked on, and thought the world would back you up because it's 'only RyanGDI'.

[Il Impero Romano]

I'd like to point out that attempting to ambush any Emperor of the New Polar Order with a band of motivated cronies and unrelated entities will result in a similar response. You were in their pocket, they were in your ambush room and Sponge, whilst abrupt, gave you a response similar to what I would even in my most calm and sensible mood. Rest assured, the current Emperor of Polaris despises you (VE) in particular and will continue to do so until you apologize for being a Class-A !@#$% and acknowledge that your deliberate provocation of Sponge led to his somewhat inappropriate response to you. You attempting to gain some mileage by bringing it up now confirms my opinion.

Also hello.

I am a long standing member of the Viridian Parliament, and although I was not such at the time of the incident to which you are referring, I have obviously done my research on the matter and the details that comprised it. All in all, the events leading up to that conversation and the words exchanged therein were neither of our alliances finest moments, and as far as I'm concerned that's all that needs to be said.

However, I can definitively tell you this. The vast majority of Viridia, both in the membership and in Parliament, hold no contempt for your alliance, and on the whole have a great deal of respect for your actions and progress since that seemingly irrecoverable low point in our relationship. Your remembered as those who protected us at our reformation, not those who attacked our treaty partner without the fair and just warning an ally is due. Both of our alliances have clearly changed a great deal since that day, and it is truly a shame that you still despise us so much as to warrant your irascible attitude above. Now, I cannot in good conscience apologize for the actions of another, in particular one who is no longer with us, but what I can do is tell you honestly that whatever contempt you still hold is not shared by Virdia towards yourself nor towards Polaris, it left us long ago.

Neither Sponge nor Ardus conducted themselves admirably in the CZ situation. Ardus was my mentor and friend, and he still is, but I was around at the time, I read the logs, and I can tell you both men did not act as maturely as they could have.

Take your own advice :x

Edited October 8, 2009 by Il Impero Romano

[AlmightyGrub]

I am a long standing member of the Viridian Parliament, and although I was not such at the time of the incident to which you are referring, I have obviously done my research on the matter and the details that comprised it. All in all, the events leading up to that conversation and the words exchanged therein were neither of our alliances finest moments, and as far as I'm concerned that's all that needs to be said.

However, I can definitively tell you this. The vast majority of Viridia, both in the membership and in Parliament, hold no contempt for your alliance, and on the whole have a great deal of respect for your actions and progress since that seemingly irrecoverable low point in our relationship. Your remembered as those who protected us at our reformation, not those who attacked our treaty partner without the fair and just warning an ally is due. Both of our alliances have clearly changed a great deal since that day, and it is truly a shame that you still despise us so much as to warrant your irascible attitude above. Now, I cannot in good conscience apologize for the actions of another, in particular one who is no longer with us, but what I can do is tell you honestly that whatever contempt you still hold is not shared by Virdia towards yourself nor towards Polaris, it left us long ago.

Take your own advice :x

Whilst de-railing the topic further, thanks for that post, it makes a lot more sense compared to the nonsense received in query. Perhaps moving on from the tangent is appropriate.

[The AUT]

I'd just like to point out that the VE was the first to drop Polar prior to the WotC (a month before actually) and for reasons entirely unrelated to the incident that eventually sparked the war. I could provide any clarification from the incident if asked.

You were also fully backed by IRON and knew about the plans to isolate Polaris long before it happened.

[Doitzel]

I'd like to point out that attempting to ambush any Emperor of the New Polar Order with a band of motivated cronies and unrelated entities will result in a similar response. You were in their pocket, they were in your ambush room and Sponge, whilst abrupt, gave you a response similar to what I would even in my most calm and sensible mood. Rest assured, the current Emperor of Polaris despises you (VE) in particular and will continue to do so until you apologize for being a Class-A !@#$% and acknowledge that your deliberate provocation of Sponge led to his somewhat inappropriate response to you. You attempting to gain some mileage by bringing it up now confirms my opinion.

Also hello.

Why do my friends always have to hate each other?

[AlmightyGrub]

Why do my friends always have to hate each other?

Such is life?

[Gopherbashi]

Why do my friends always have to hate each other?

I suppose it's better than your enemies all liking each other.

[Doitzel]

Such is life?

Why you gotta be like that, man? ;_;

I suppose it's better than your enemies all liking each other.

Not at all.

[Fallen Fool]

And by jump ship, you mean canceled on you after you put them in an impossible position by declaring on their MDP partner. You guys made mistakes, they made mistakes. You made the mistake that caused them to do what they felt they had to, though, so saying they 'jumped ship' is laughable.

Two wrongs don't make a right?

Now, I cannot in good conscience apologize for the actions of another, in particular one who is no longer with us

Part of Polar's crucible to become another alliance was apologizing vehemently and continuously for the errors and mistakes of Sponge, despite the fact that he was both inactive and out of our alliance. It was expected of us by most of CN, including your own alliance.

Are you now saying that it was impossible for us to do so in good conscience, or are you admitting that such requirements were both immoral and an act of petty pride aimed at getting Polar to bend knee for the sake of it?

Why do my friends always have to hate each other?

You're worth fighting over. Edited October 8, 2009 by Fallen_Fool

[SiCkO]

Woah now. Don't be hatin'. Just because my masterpieces were not adopted does not mean they were bad. It's not my fault The Legion was bitter about our stewardship and didn't take my advice for this improvement of their flag:

Bite me.

Edit: Oh yeah, and I'm way overrated. Seriously not saying that for the faux-modesty thing either. Silver tongue, that's about it.

its not in purple

put it in purple and we will do it

[Cornelius]

Just to clarify, Ardus and I were the only ones talking to Sponge immediately after FIST got hit. Yeah, we might have probed a bit, but our ally had just been attacked by another ally, so we were wondering what was up. Sponge basically felt it was no big deal because he had helped us reforming, so the alliance decided to cancel on them. Then 1V approached us and said they were dropping NpO for the same reason (which honestly I doubt now but at the time we didn't care) and there you had the initial cancellation. Say whatever you wish about the CZ thing, which admittedly Ardus thought that having mutual allies there would help and not hurt but was wrong, but the fact is we didn't cancel on Polar for ulterior reasons. We canceled because Sponge hit FIST. That's all. We hold nothing against Polar, as far as we're concerned the situation was resolved when Sponge left the NpO.

And the rest of you, say what you will, but we didn't take part in isolating Polar. We were offered a chance to fight in the beginning of the WotC, but turned it down because we didn't agree with GGA's reasoning. And when we did fight, it was to defend a protectorate of former members with two MADP allies.

Sorry, felt the need to explain myself. If you have specific questions, feel free to PM me.

Edit: now not know

Edited October 8, 2009 by Cornelius

[Heft]

Just to clarify, Ardus and I were the only ones talking to Sponge immediately after FIST got hit. Yeah, we might have probed a bit, but our ally had just been attacked by another ally, so we were wondering what was up. Sponge basically felt it was no big deal because he had helped us reforming, so the alliance decided to cancel on them. Then 1V approached us and said they were dropping NpO for the same reason (which honestly I doubt now but at the time we didn't care) and there you had the initial cancellation. Say whatever you wish about the CZ thing, which admittedly Ardus thought that having mutual allies there would help and not hurt but was wrong, but the fact is we didn't cancel on Polar for ulterior reasons. We canceled because Sponge hit FIST. That's all. We hold nothing against Polar, as far as we're concerned the situation was resolved when Sponge left the NpO.

And the rest of you, say what you will, but we didn't take part in isolating Polar. We were offered a chance to fight in the beginning of the WotC, but turned it down because we didn't agree with GGA's reasoning. And when we did fight, it was to defend a protectorate of former members with two MADP allies.

Sorry, felt the need to explain myself. If you have specific questions, feel free to PM me.

Edit: now not know

I've generally felt that VE was never a complicit partner in isolating Polar, but more of a surprisingly convenient and useful source of excuses (mainly with the CZ thing and Sponge's little blow up). For example, it was Ardus that set up that conversation, but it wasn't VE that exploited the aftermath in order to initiate the cascading cancellations that followed. I'm not exactly a huge fan of VE these days and don't necessarily think VE made all the right decisions then, but if we're going to start assigning blame for all of that I'm pretty sure VE isn't at the top of the list, and going down that whole list would be extremely tedious.

[zzzptm]

I've generally felt that VE was never a complicit partner in isolating Polar, but more of a surprisingly convenient and useful source of excuses (mainly with the CZ thing and Sponge's little blow up). For example, it was Ardus that set up that conversation, but it wasn't VE that exploited the aftermath in order to initiate the cascading cancellations that followed. I'm not exactly a huge fan of VE these days and don't necessarily think VE made all the right decisions then, but if we're going to start assigning blame for all of that I'm pretty sure VE isn't at the top of the list, and going down that whole list would be extremely tedious.

To be sure, VE's always been a strong ally of NV, despite people getting confused over Vidians and Viridians.

[Virillus]

Thanks. Except I'm not an alliance leader and I don't think anyone would rate me very highly in the first place. I knew when to quit when RL took over.

*high five!*

Also: Thank you, Maddhatter.

I think the concept of an "overrated" leader is a contradiction in terms. If people like/respect the crap out of you for *whatever* reason, then you're succeeding, at least partially. Look at Ivan, whether he was/is a good elader or not, because of the admiration he got, he was able to come back and create a second mostly successfull alliance.

If enough people respect/ed you that you can be considered "overrated" than you're doing well enough that being called as such would be a gross exxageration, at best.

In my experience, there are far to many good leaders that don't get the credit they deserve due to not being a big enough troll or dynamic poster on the OWF.

Ilselu1, Drai, Arsenal, Kestral.

Some of the most amazing leaders I've met in this game were nothing more than company commanders I served with in a war who then vanished when it was over.

Who here remembers the sheer brilliance that was InfernoMDM? The Diablo company leadership? Nick Danger? Winstonopia?

To many good people for me to fit into one post, really.

[SunnyInc]

By the time Grub was thrust into the position, the die had been cast. The only reason they weren't attacked yet was because the OoO was still intact. Despite Grub's best efforts, the OoO was eventually cancelled and thats when the hyenas pounced, there was no amount of leadership in the world to have been able to prevent that war. Circumstances don't define the leadership, they reveal it and Grub showed he was the highest quality leader around. If you think you can make an honest case for him being overrated then lets hear it, but i don't think you'll be able to make one

I'm not here to make an honest case, I figured seeing as your Polaris chums were bent on making poorly informed comments about one of ours I would return the favour

Edited October 8, 2009 by SunnyInc

[AlmightyGrub]

I'm not here to make an honest case, I figured seeing your Polaris chums were bent on making poorly informed comments about one of ours I would return the favour

Who are you? At least you can spell correctly. It would help if you wore some kind of clear alliance affiliation then I could troll you for appropriate reasons

I see...TSO. For the record I would not express my true feelings about your leadership on this forum or I would be insta banned. It is a well informed, accurate and non-subjective viewpoint that transcends even an opinion.

Edited October 8, 2009 by AlmightyGrub

[SunnyInc]

Who are you? At least you can spell correctly. It would help if you wore some kind of clear alliance affiliation then I could troll you for appropriate reasons

I see...TSO. For the record I would not express my true feelings about your leadership on this forum or I would be insta banned. It is a well informed, accurate and non-subjective viewpoint that transcends even an opinion.

For the record, I am almost positive the feeling is mutual. Regardless, I'm not particularly fussed whether you like them or if you are still sore about events long past. What does concern me is when you and your chums confuse your grudges against our leadership group with their actual ability as leaders.

Edited October 8, 2009 by SunnyInc

[AlmightyGrub]

For the record, I am almost positive the feeling is mutual. Regardless, I'm not particularly fussed whether you like them or if you are still sore about events long past. What does concern me is when you and your chums confuse your grudges against our leadership group with their actual ability as leaders.

I am sure it may well be. I am not sore, I am disgusted and will remain so. The passage of time will not diminish the contempt I feel for your leader and your allegiance to him does not deter me from my stand. Sore you say? I don't feel contempt for TOP or Gramlins, I signed a treaty with Valhalla, have talked to many of the others who paid my alliance a visit last year so where is the sore if that was what this is about? You are kidding me right?

Their ability as leaders you say? I have so much respect for an alliance leader who loses so much control of his own alliance, that he has run with his corrupt cronies forever and a day, that he packs his bags, takes his mates and forms a new alliance to the massive detriment of his former alliance lying to his brothers the whole time he did. Knowing full well he has a target the size of a small Pacific Island on his back, he chooses to hide behind the one alliance that at the time nobody (read Polaris) wanted to mess with. Of course later he buys his way out of it after the massive wave of public opinion starts to engulf him.

Yes, my respect is high for that kind of behaviour, it shows a real talent.... for dodging responsibility. Couple that with my previous experiences with said leader, his ability to back stab and sell out his friends and allies for any piece of the big time he could, which of course his lack of actual talent is exposed even further. Then tipped off by his mates in high places, scarpers out of the way of the massive wave called Karma, knowing full well it was coming down the mountain... awesome.

Of course add in tagging into the righteous side of the war by virtue of his association with his well chosen protector, feigning moral outrage at the treatment of someone or other and withdrawing without so much as a scratch... impressive dodge ball techniques. Considering he was at the heart of BLEU, enthusiastically committing the alleged crimes in concert with those he later blamed for them and rolled, considering he was in both tC (and 1V later) for the entire period of their reign of terror, but he saw fit to roll into the war on Karma's side, forgive me if I don't have one scintilla of respect for him.

Overrated is probably harsh, he has the best instinct for survival, the best instinct for when to invoke the flee reaction, and an incredible ability to lie directly to people and have them believe him, I guess I will score him highly right there. For basic human respect, loyalty to friends and allies and for common decency when in the superior position, he rates as low as you could possibly score it. If there was a negative score card, I would be holding it high.

Overrated, nah. I rate him spot on. Coward, opportunist and plenty more besides.

IF you want to know what I really think, please feel free to ask.

[WildThing]

For the record, I am almost positive the feeling is mutual. Regardless, I'm not particularly fussed whether you like them or if you are still sore about events long past. What does concern me is when you and your chums confuse your grudges against our leadership group with their actual ability as leaders.

I'm not anyone's chum and probably especially not Grub's.. But leadership ability? Sam?

[SunnyInc]

I am sure it may well be. I am not sore, I am disgusted and will remain so. The passage of time will not diminish the contempt I feel for your leader and your allegiance to him does not deter me from my stand. Sore you say? I don't feel contempt for TOP or Gramlins, I signed a treaty with Valhalla, have talked to many of the others who paid my alliance a visit last year so where is the sore if that was what this is about? You are kidding me right?

Their ability as leaders you say? I have so much respect for an alliance leader who loses so much control of his own alliance, that he has run with his corrupt cronies forever and a day, that he packs his bags, takes his mates and forms a new alliance to the massive detriment of his former alliance lying to his brothers the whole time he did. Knowing full well he has a target the size of a small Pacific Island on his back, he chooses to hide behind the one alliance that at the time nobody (read Polaris) wanted to mess with. Of course later he buys his way out of it after the massive wave of public opinion starts to engulf him.

Yes, my respect is high for that kind of behaviour, it shows a real talent.... for dodging responsibility. Couple that with my previous experiences with said leader, his ability to back stab and sell out his friends and allies for any piece of the big time he could, which of course his lack of actual talent is exposed even further. Then tipped off by his mates in high places, scarpers out of the way of the massive wave called Karma, knowing full well it was coming down the mountain... awesome.

Of course add in tagging into the righteous side of the war by virtue of his association with his well chosen protector, feigning moral outrage at the treatment of someone or other and withdrawing without so much as a scratch... impressive dodge ball techniques. Considering he was at the heart of BLEU, enthusiastically committing the alleged crimes in concert with those he later blamed for them and rolled, considering he was in both tC (and 1V later) for the entire period of their reign of terror, but he saw fit to roll into the war on Karma's side, forgive me if I don't have one scintilla of respect for him.

Overrated is probably harsh, he has the best instinct for survival, the best instinct for when to invoke the flee reaction, and an incredible ability to lie directly to people and have them believe him, I guess I will score him highly right there. For basic human respect, loyalty to friends and allies and for common decency when in the superior position, he rates as low as you could possibly score it. If there was a negative score card, I would be holding it high.

Overrated, nah. I rate him spot on. Coward, opportunist and plenty more besides.

IF you want to know what I really think, please feel free to ask.

I see little point in trying to disprove an arguement built on a foundation of speculation, spin and outright deceit. You have clearly demonstrated your understanding of our motives for forming TSO are about as comprehensive as your prehension of our selection of allies. If you're looking for some measure of justification to my claim, I suggest you mull over the countless threads that have served as the battle grounds of the accusations you've raised in your post; I've got better things to do than beat a dead horse.

Edited October 8, 2009 by SunnyInc

[Gopherbashi]

I see little point in trying to disprove an arguement built on a foundation of speculation, spin and outright deceit. You have clearly demonstrated your understanding of our motives for forming TSO are about as comprehensive as your prehension of our selection of allies. If you're looking for some measure of justification to my claim, I suggest you mull over the countless threads that have served as the battle grounds of the accusations you've raised in your post; I've got better things to do than beat a dead horse.

Actually, I'd have to say that he's got it spot-on. And considering how many conversations I've had with TSO leaders about this, I think I'd be one person who might just have a bit of knowledge on the subject.

Nevertheless, I personally have to say that Sam is one of the most underrated leaders of all time. As much as he is widely criticized for being a scheming, deceitful, lying, shameful, ignorant, backstabbing idiot, Sam nevertheless has an uncanny ability to predict the political future of Planet Bob and realign himself to whatever side will emerge victorious - an ability which should scare any alliance to hell and back again if they are ever on the receiving end of a treaty cancellation from him. The "efficiency" with which he accomplishes this - by so quickly and thoroughly adopting the prevailing political climate as his own, and fooling his newfound allies so completely as to his true intentions - can only be described as genius.

I frankly don't know how much more praise I can heap upon a man who, after two years of continuous rule, considered nearly ten whole percent of his alliance not to be an abject failure. At least it can be said that, before they left for their new alliance, I never had discussions with all of TSO's future commanders about how best to keep Sam under control.

Edited October 8, 2009 by Gopherbashi

[Doitzel]

Actually, I'd have to say that he's got it spot-on. And considering how many conversations I've had with TSO leaders about this, I think I'd be one person who might just have a bit of knowledge on the subject.

Nevertheless, I personally have to say that Sam is one of the most underrated leaders of all time. As much as he is widely criticized for being a scheming, deceitful, lying, shameful, ignorant, backstabbing idiot, Sam nevertheless has an uncanny ability to predict the political future of Planet Bob and realign himself to whatever side will emerge victorious - an ability which should scare any alliance to hell and back again if they ever be on the receiving end of a treaty cancellation from him. The "efficiency" with which he accomplishes this - by so quickly and thoroughly adopting the prevailing political climate as his own, and fooling his newfound allies so completely as to his true intentions - can only be described as genius.

I frankly don't know how much more praise I can heap upon a man who, after two years of continuous rule, considers nearly ten whole percent of his alliance not to be an abject failure. At least it can be said that, before they left for their new alliance, I never had discussions with all of TSO's future commanders about how best to keep Sam under control.

I don't care much about any of that. It's hard to rate someone highly when they're ... well, let's just say there's nothing kind to be said about him. I've been here a long time and encountered some truly abhorrent people, and even the GOONS and LUEsers would be hard-pressed to find someone I'd want to deal with less.