Carthage Announcement of Transgressions

[President S O]

I wonder how RyanGDI will get out of this; looks like its time to consult the Magic8Ball

***SHAKES***

***SHAKES SOME MORE***

Magic8Ball knows all! I wonder if Ryan would have thought of that one

Happy hunting AUT

You won this thread

Good luck and lets hope for a happy outcome to everyone involved, the post were getting too long so I stopped reading the dribble.

[Stumpy Jung Il]

1. Ashamed? Not really. It was mildly entertaining for a while. It also brought up some important points regarding ghosting of alliances that deserved to be aired out. The knee jerk reaction when seeing RyanGDI come up as a topic in a thread is to yell, "KILL IT!" and assume that RyanGDI did something wrong again. Nine times out of ten, that would be the correct reaction.

Now Hal, you should know by now that I am just joking when I say things like that.

2. Standard operating procedure is to immediately contact the AA being ghosted to make sure that alliance is aware of what you are doing, then attack. If you are unable to attack, it is proper to ask for help with the rogue--through private channels. Frequently the alliance being ghosted by a rogue will want to attack them anyway. Providing this assistance is voluntarily, though to be honest if it were requested and refused, I might be a bit miffed. Then again, I wouldn't be asking the alliance behind the rogue's AA for help unless I were desperate and couldn't get an ally to assist.

Basically exactly what I was saying.

[The Reccesion]

You won this thread

Good luck and lets hope for a happy outcome to everyone involved, the post were getting too long so I stopped reading the dribble.

I agree with you he did win the thread, and they came to a peaceful resolution.

[Salmia]

I just have to say this about the entire thread: I like you Aut, but this isn't a good reason in my opinion to issue an ultimatum. As much as it hurts to be on the same side as Ryan, the guy wasn't actually a member and he was a ghost. You don't have a right to demand how they handle their ghosts. You can attack the alliance over it if you wish to but it is a ghost. They can't force him off the AA. Jarkko knows exactly what I'm talking about. Alliances have ghosts that won't leave, in fact some ghosts are too small to attack. Alliances are not responsible for ghosts on their AA. While I believe it is a good sign of faith for the alliance to attack them if they can, they're not responsible for the action of someone on their AA who is not a member and it isn't up to another alliance to demand that they have to "clean" their AA. Most alliances try to but in the end, it is almost impossible to make a ghost who wants to stay leave.

Edited October 2, 2009 by Salmia

[Coven]

I just have to say this about the entire thread: I like you Aut, but this isn't a good reason in my opinion to issue an ultimatum. As much as it hurts to be on the same side as Ryan, the guy wasn't actually a member and he was a ghost. You don't have a right to demand how they handle their ghosts. You can attack the alliance over it if you wish to but it is a ghost. They can't force him off the AA. Jarkko knows exactly what I'm talking about. Alliances have ghosts that won't leave, in fact some ghosts are too small to attack. Alliances are not responsible for ghosts on their AA. While I believe it is a good sign of faith for the alliance to attack them if they can, they're not responsible for the action of someone on their AA who is not a member and it isn't up to another alliance to demand that they have to "clean" their AA. Most alliances try to but in the end, it is almost impossible to make a ghost who wants to stay leave.

While I'm not completely in agreement with the way this situation was handled, I do believe that no one course of action is more correct than another. In AUT's defense, people need to consider this from a different perspective. Consider your last name in real life. If someone is going around breaking into peoples homes, stealing, assaulting, all while blatantly displaying your name on their shirt as they do it. It really brings a bad image upon your family name. Now, one would think that to correct the issue, the true bearers of the name would seek out and solve the issue, whether by forcing the person to stop, or by asking them to. This really does seem quite logical to me. Now going back to the CN situation at hand, based off of what I have said, TFA is responsible for maintaining their name, and if their name is being used for crimes against others, they should be responsible for correcting those actions.

Now, I do realize that this could have been handled differently, maybe better. Yes, I agree talking in private firstly is and always should be the first course of action, followed by a possible "private warning", before taking it public, and if all else fails a military response. But who is to say what diplomatic course is more right than any other? I see people bashing AUT for his choice of actions here, but.. The situation was resolved successfully, and whether we agree with the tactic used or not, in the end, it worked. I am not defending AUT necessarily on his approach to fixing the situation, just merely the fact that there is no right or wrong approach to solving a situation like this, only what you feel is best given the circumstances, all about choices. Just my thoughts.

Anyway, I was glad to see this dispute settled peacefully. Best of luck to both AUT and Ryan.

Edited October 3, 2009 by Airikr

[Penkala]

Consider this, if rogues and bandits are camped on your side of a border, wear your insignia or claim to be sanction by you, who then attack a nation on the other side of the border, is it not reasonable for the aggrieved nation to demand that you do something about it?

If a terrorist uses your good name to commit atrocities, and continues to do so, at what point are you obligated to stop just saying "He's not one of ours" and to start working to eliminate this threat and protect your reputation?

Consider this. You lead a small nation with 6 or 7 soldiers. Across the border is a country with 25 soldiers, and their ally with 300 soldiers and their friends with hundreds more. Someone jumps into your nation and attacks. Rather than the larger nation just handling it, they demand that your one soldier in marching distance of the rogue attack him, or your country will be rolled.

[Kzoppistan]

Consider this. You lead a small nation with 6 or 7 soldiers. Across the border is a country with 25 soldiers, and their ally with 300 soldiers and their friends with hundreds more. Someone jumps into your nation and attacks. Rather than the larger nation just handling it, they demand that your one soldier in marching distance of the rogue attack him, or your country will be rolled.

In which case I would have to do some rather quick thinking, and instead of lamenting what a cruel world it was and how much of a bully my neighbor was for insisting I take care of those bandits, I would set my course thus: convene with my neighbor and suggest that my one lone soldier act as a guide to lead the way for my neighbor's troops where we could converge on those rebels that caused so much disruption for both our forces. They can have a larger share of the loot. Plus, to convince them of this course of action I would state that social norms suggest that rogues should be handled by the aggrieved party and that his approach would not gain him international sympathy but ire, however, considering the circumstance of my neighbors insistence, that we should work together. Then I would point out that in regards to international relations, we would both gain the esteem of the world by displaying our cooperative powers. Furthermore, I would attempt to use that minimal amount of good press as leverage towards gaining an ally that would help cover up the fact that I was too weak to keep pesky bandits from over-staying their welcome in the first place. Later that night I would go to sleep praying that nobody else noticed how weak the control over my lands was and decides to invade on that principal alone. That next morning over eggs and coffee but not before the paper I would reflect on how well reasoned my neighbor was in working with me and begin planning how to strengthen my lands and name.

All that said, I understand the point you are making. I sympathize with Ryan's plight in that his alliance was too stretched out, and I'm glad to see The AUT taking that in stride.

Really, Airikr said everything better than I could.

While I'm always an advocate of peace and diplomacy, sometimes the threat of force can be an effective motivator. The AUT's approach may have been unconventional, and others may not agree with it, but if they are both happy with the end result, well... there you have it.

Edited October 3, 2009 by Kzoppistan

[Trinite]

I just have to say this about the entire thread: I like you Aut, but this isn't a good reason in my opinion to issue an ultimatum. As much as it hurts to be on the same side as Ryan, the guy wasn't actually a member and he was a ghost. You don't have a right to demand how they handle their ghosts. You can attack the alliance over it if you wish to but it is a ghost. They can't force him off the AA. Jarkko knows exactly what I'm talking about. Alliances have ghosts that won't leave, in fact some ghosts are too small to attack. Alliances are not responsible for ghosts on their AA. While I believe it is a good sign of faith for the alliance to attack them if they can, they're not responsible for the action of someone on their AA who is not a member and it isn't up to another alliance to demand that they have to "clean" their AA. Most alliances try to but in the end, it is almost impossible to make a ghost who wants to stay leave.

Get your dirty logic out of here Mia. Go snap and whistle.

[Keve69]

NO NO NO! RyanGDI youve got it all wrong! Leading an alliance isn't like golf, the goal is to be as FAR away from 0 as possible.

Why is it Ryan that you insist on everything you do ending in getting yourself rolled? I suppose its some sort of RP trait Ryan likes his characters to have...

*sigh*

[Fernando12]

NO NO NO! RyanGDI youve got it all wrong! Leading an alliance isn't like golf, the goal is to be as FAR away from 0 as possible.

Why is it Ryan that you insist on everything you do ending in getting yourself rolled? I suppose its some sort of RP trait Ryan likes his characters to have...

*sigh*

Read it and you'll see that RyanGDI was not wrong here.

Don't skim the topic or see one name and assume things.

[Louisa]

Consider your last name in real life. If someone is going around breaking into peoples homes, stealing, assaulting, all while blatantly displaying your name on their shirt as they do it. It really brings a bad image upon your family name. Now, one would think that to correct the issue, the true bearers of the name would seek out and solve the issue, whether by forcing the person to stop, or by asking them to. This really does seem quite logical to me.

I am sure that at some time, some person named Jenkins broke the law in Kansas City so now I urge the Jenkins' of Melbourne to travel across the glittering sea to redress this horrible affront to their common last name. This really does seem quite logical to me.

[Keve69]

Read it and you'll see that RyanGDI was not wrong here.

Don't skim the topic or see one name and assume things.

Dang Fernando you caugh me in an excess period of lazyness I read the first 3 pages then gave and posted....

Excuse me... my bad

[Proximus]

I am sure that at some time, some person named Jenkins broke the law in Kansas City

Way more common occurrence than you would think >_>

[Un4Gvn1]

Now I have to wonder why a nation that wore the TGE Immigrant AA as recently as October 2nd is now wearing the Task Force Alpha AA and is attacking UPN nations?

war screen

Utopia, do you have a beef with RyanGDI and are trying to cause him trouble?

Edit: I just saw this thread. Kevin McDonald gave you good advice, RyanGDI.

Edited October 4, 2009 by Peggy_Sue

[AllenKalashnikov]

Now I have to wonder why a nation that wore the TGE Immigrant AA as recently as October 2nd is now wearing the Task Force Alpha AA and is attacking UPN nations?

war screen

Utopia, do you have a beef with RyanGDI and are trying to cause him trouble?

Edit: I just saw this thread. Kevin McDonald gave you good advice, RyanGDI.

I have already approached UPN and warned them of that ghost they have already handled it, Thank you and have a nice day.

[Thomas Jackson]

/thread

Please do so Ryan...maybe then, you can give the world a reason to crush pink by somehow getting into government and do something like this!

If plans like this are what we have to worry about, then I don't believe we have any reason for worry.

[Ellis]

I am sure that at some time, some person named Jenkins broke the law in Kansas City so now I urge the Jenkins' of Melbourne to travel across the glittering sea to redress this horrible affront to their common last name. This really does seem quite logical to me.

WOOOOSH!