Zhadum reveals NPO information: organized logs

[Sequoia Throne]

How about you DO read the logs again so you're not talking out of your $@!?

<+Zhadum> Well, Grub hates the NPO according to the posts Ursarkar keeps leaking out of their forums, same with most of their leaders

And you trust an individual who particularly hates you and has every reason to sow discord between Polaris and Pacifica over... what seems to be common sense? How could Ursarker have gained access to private areas of your forums by himself? He has been a Pacifican for quite a long time now. I admit that there could be more that I'm not privy to, but based only on Zha's statements, I don't see how Ursy could have been a master spai.

[Branimir]

Because giving NPO screenshots of posts from private NpO forums, even not the leadership ones, would be OK, right?

Well if there are from areas he has legitimate access to now, or before, well its not kosher but hey its not really spying.

But you must realize I am from NPO, alliance spied upon constantly and ex members saying all kinds of things from the day they were members so hey, if its ok for them, then its ok here.

Edited September 28, 2009 by Branimir

[Proko]

And you trust an individual who particularly hates you and has every reason to sow discord between Polaris and Pacifica over... what seems to be common sense? How could Ursarker have gained access to private areas of your forums by himself? He has been a Pacifican for quite a long time now. I admit that there could be more that I'm not privy to, but based only on Zha's statements, I don't see how Ursy could have been a master spai.

Ursarkar is quite talented with computers, and I am sure if he wanted access to our membership areas he could get them.

It's not that I believe everything Z'ha'dum says. He lies about a lot of things in his logs. However, the comment about Ursarkar came unprovoked. No one said, "Hey Z'ha'dum, does Ursarkar spy on Polaris?" He is a former member, that under (OOC) a previous account was expelled from Polaris. He has motivation, and he always knows the password to our private channel.

There are certainly lies among Z'ha'dum's logs. But we know Pacifica has spied on us in the past (Griswalds), and Zha admits they are continuing to "receive" information to this day, something your alliance has destroyed others for.

[WarriorConcept]

Well if there are from areas he has legitimate access to now, or before, well its not kosher but hey its not really spying.

Have you ever read all of your alliances CBs?

[Seerow]

I know I'm a few pages late. Some of us actually slept last night. I'll edit this post if I see anything else in the next few pages I want to comment on.

It makes sense I think.

I mean, NPO didn't ACTIVELY try to recruit traitors, but obviously the largest alliance, one hated by many, at the top of the world for so long, will have people trying to dismantle it from the inside.

It's a little ridiculous, especially since most "traitors" have been exonerated by now, but I could see what he's getting at.

I think you misunderstand what the traitors are. Most of us are considered traitors not because we joined with the intention of destroying Pacifica. Those people aren't traitors. You can't betray an alliance you never truly wished to be a part of or help. The traitors are far more tragic in that they joined and earnestly did their best to serve, but then upon their leaving are villainized by the alliance they had dedicated so much time and effort to.

Not at all. Many of those branded traitors refused to turn traitor even after being labeled as such and tossed on the street (hi musso, kat, ivan). Most of these so-called traitors are fabricated. In fact all they did was dissent (or in Seerow's case ... well, I still don't know what he did).

To be honest it took me years to figure out what I did. In the end I decided it was just leaving. After Anthony was expelled I left, many other Military Command left, but it somehow got spun that I organized the whole shebang, and as such am a traitor who tried to pull the rug out from underneath Pacifica's feet.

Of course by the time I had left my problems were more than just a friend being expelled, I had enough other gripes with the Order and was vocal about them. But nothing I said wasn't something that was pretty commonplace a year or so down the line. I never went and log dumped or posted anything sensitive. Mostly I criticized the Order for its activity levels and organization. It's just the timing with which things happened that really got me caught up and transformed into the traitor.

But hey, the "$%&@ Seerow" thread came out of the whole ordeal and that makes it worth it. B)

[Branimir]

There are certainly lies among Z'ha'dum's logs. But we know Pacifica has spied on us in the past (Griswalds), and Zha admits they are continuing to "receive" information to this day, something your alliance has destroyed others for.

Hey man, you do what you want, really at this point I couldn't care less. That usurkar is spying is not the only possible explanation from Zha logs, but is one.

So you handpick it however you like, its not like anybody else but you can form your opinion.

I await your DoW then, while when we defend against spying is not a valid CB, I am sure if you twist this one into that, its gonna pass as a good one for you.

Cheers mate.

Edited September 28, 2009 by Branimir

[Proko]

Hey man, you do what you want, really at this point I couldn't care less. That usurkar is spying is not the only possible explanation from Zha logs, but is one.

So you handpick it however you like, its not like anybody else but you can form your opinion.

I await your DoW then, while when we defend against spying is not a valid CB, I am sure its gonna pass as a good one for you.

Cheers mate.

Grub will deal with the situation himself. I'm retired leadership making an argument out of information everyone has, except that Ursarkar frequently knows the password to our private channel. I am making no claims about the actions of Polaris, the intent of Polaris, or even Grub's opinion on the issue. This is all me, not Polaris.

[Branimir]

This is all me, not Polaris.

We are all speaking here for ourselves, as I dont see any real leadership around currently then Grubs post.

I was just kind of trying to extrapolate from what I see here though, from reactions of some. Of course, I could be wrong, but hey, I know how bad some want NPO to be gone and dead (although they will never see the day) so my extrapolation is not that off base here.

Edited September 28, 2009 by Branimir

[Azrael Alexander]

Nah, we would have still attacked had they invited us and still hit during our negotiations.  Really, any sort of attack given that CB was inappropriate and hypocritical and would not have garnered much support from us (on top of completely incompetent).

I reckon if they had played it smartly they could have got you guys on side. Althought you would more about it with regards to TOP

[Haflinger]

I said I was going to stop posting here, but this is getting silly.

Look, the biggest problem with Z'ha'dum's information is that it's terribly out of date. Ursarkar has been in NPO for over six months now. That he might have done a bit of logdumping when he arrived seems to me not only possible, but actually likely. Or possibly in the time before he switched. That would actually be pretty consistent with Z'ha'dum's other revelations, most of which were old already in 2008.

But... If you think he's used electronic invasion techniques to get access to the private parts of your forums, that's a whole other issue which isn't born up by the Z'ha log. Honestly I doubt that Z'ha is aware that Ursarkar is now a member of Pacifica. He seems remarkably out of touch with current affairs.

[Proxian Empire]

I'm glad that NPO finally confesses to the fact that they sought to undermine and kill us in the No CB War. To think they actually thought we'd back them up after that is hilarious.

Ursarkar, you are scum and you will get what's coming for you. I promise you that.

[Sequoia Throne]

Ursarkar is quite talented with computers, and I am sure if he wanted access to our membership areas he could get them.

It's not that I believe everything Z'ha'dum says. He lies about a lot of things in his logs. However, the comment about Ursarkar came unprovoked. No one said, "Hey Z'ha'dum, does Ursarkar spy on Polaris?" He is a former member, that under (OOC) a previous account was expelled from Polaris. He has motivation, and he always knows the password to our private channel.

There are certainly lies among Z'ha'dum's logs. But we know Pacifica has spied on us in the past (Griswalds), and Zha admits they are continuing to "receive" information to this day, something your alliance has destroyed others for.

If you don't know the nature of the supposed leak and admit that there are a lot of lies in Zha's logs, don't you think it's a little bit of a stretch to infer that Ursarker is now hacking into your forums and taking whatever he wants. Zha may have made the comment unprovoked, but he does have a largely suspect motive. Here's an alternative scenario: Zha hates Polaris, he hates the Officers that just kicked him out, and he's looking to damage both. Perhaps Ursy is friends with some Polars that gave him the info, but that's not proven and it's probably not the case.

[Rebel Virginia]

Yes, NPO was sadly mistaken about her treaties before the OV DoW. Big surprise there, omg, omg.

For what is worth, it will be very very hard to sell to BR some treaties now, hopefully that way we avoid having so much useless treaties.

Do you really still believe that the BR has any say (or for that matter, ever did) in the policies of the IOs?

[RandomInterrupt]

Well if there are from areas he has legitimate access to now, or before, well its not kosher but hey its not really spying.

But you must realize I am from NPO, alliance spied upon constantly and ex members saying all kinds of things from the day they were members so hey, if its ok for them, then its ok here.

It is worth noting that Polaris does not give any additional access to former members. The Former Member mask is just a Visitor mask with a different tag. A former member should be able to see nothing more than what a newly registered account can see.

[Branimir]

I'm glad that NPO finally confesses to the fact that they sought to undermine and kill us in the No CB War.

Well I don't see a statement in official capacity from NPO, but only an irc convo of a ex NPO IO left on bad terms who also basically implied how NPO was just returning a favor to NpO in no CB war.

I still think your best evidence of your view of the war are Doitz logs. Zha does not really support your view of that war, he is saying how Sponge intentionally killed of our allies so he got some back.

To think they actually thought we'd back them up after that is hilarious.

Well Grub said that he was genuine in backing us "after that", but that our IOs continued to rub him the wrong way so yeah,...now he could be lying and you never had any intentions of backing us ever which would go in line with what Zha said.

Ursarkar, you are scum and you will get what's coming for you. I promise you that.

That is what I am talking about from couple of pages. Its all good drama but lacks some hate.

Now we are getting somewhere , RAAAAGEEE

[Branimir]

Do you really still believe that the BR has any say (or for that matter, ever did) in the policies of the IOs?

It has no say, but its gonna be a !@#$%* to introduce some new treaties to BR, now.

Things are a bit different you know RV. Its cool when everything is cool and we are at the top. But once you screw up badly, and there are no longer results to back you, people become more demanding and stop continuously support everything. You can already feel this, as such, selling some treaties to BR would be really just to much hassle now then they are worth, as such, I am sure lesser amount of dead treaties will be had if not for any other reason, then because of that.

Edited September 28, 2009 by Branimir

[cookavich]

Branimir, no offense, but stop while you're ahead... well that would have been a few pages ago, so, just stop before you make yourself look any more ignorant.

Edited September 28, 2009 by cookavich

[D34th]

Very interesting I would say, really very interesting.

[Branimir]

Branimir, no offense, but stop while you're ahead... well that would have been a few pages ago, so, just stop before you make yourself look any more ignorant.

You say it, as I would care,...

Honestly, I don't know what is that "ignorant" which I posted, maybe because I had the audacity not to interpret things the same way as some. So like, whatever really.

No offense of course.

Edited September 28, 2009 by Branimir

[Doitzel]

As much as I enjoy calling Xha'dam a liar myself, I really doubt he's intentionally lying, per se. I think he's telling what he believes to be the truth and that he's had just a little too much coloured sugar-water over the years. Everyone knows NPO spied in the beginning -- Ivan admits it regularly -- and Xha wasn't in a position to know then and he never has been. Such would be dealt with at the highest levels.

Also I've got to remark on the irony of Pacific saying accepting information from an insider in Polar isn't spying considering the cause of the war they recently lost: lol.

[Branimir]

Also I've got to remark on the irony of Pacific saying accepting information from an insider in Polar isn't spying considering the cause of the war they recently lost: lol.

Nobody said that actually. Hardly Pacifica as such as nobody speaking in the name of it posted recently.

If that is the case and Usurkar had a "inside" access to NpO which he shouldn't have had any longer, then that is spying. Now of course, that needs to be proved.

But hey man, you can always make this type of general incorrect comments.

Edited September 28, 2009 by Branimir

[Doitzel]

Nobody said that actually. Hardly Pacifica as such as nobody speaking in the name of it posted recently.

If that is the case and Usurkar had a "inside" access to NpO which he shouldn't have had any longer, then that is spying. Now of course, that needs to be proved.

But hey man, you can always make this type of general incorrect comments.

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?s...t&p=1869597

Ummm... I'll defer to cookavich's suggestion above.

[HeinousOne]

Have you ever read all of your alliances CBs?

He doesn't even have to go back very far, he can just go back to his alliance's Latest CB.

You say it, as I would care,...

Honestly, I don't know what is that "ignorant" which I posted, maybe because I had the audacity not to interpret things the same way as some. So like, whatever really.

No offense of course.

You really should care. You are getting alot of people wound up again over NPO as I am sure there is probably an investigation going on now about this spying case.

Seriously, you really should care.

[Branimir]

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?s...t&p=1869597

Ummm... I'll defer to cookavich's suggestion above.

Listen, man, you are just not putting any effort into it lately.

I have noticed this when you went to post how NPO did not expel Nosey when he was discovered to be a spy, in a recent thread we had here.

To say something that is so well known wrong, was a bit funny, but also showed me you are just now randomly going around posting some stuff just right out of your $@!.

Like here this, how Pacifica is claiming how accepting info from a insider in NpO isn't spying. Now, lets disregard that it still to be proved how Usurkar is definitely a spy, lets just hang on to how we didn't see any statement to that extend from a representative of goverment of Pacifica who only have the authority to speak in behalf of it.

You just made that statement right out of your $@!, just so to make some really weak shot at NPO. And I mean really weak. You are just not putting any effort into it any longer,...common man.

[Lord Fingolfin]

*wipes the sweat off his brow*

23 pages. Took long enough.

*proceeds to toss around some witty banter about old times. Dismissively utters "Nothing new here, I've heard it all" to try to play himself up as someone totally in the know and informed, far superior to all the other peons. Insults a few people, question their intelligence, motives, and competence*

Rinse, Wash, Repeat

Edited September 28, 2009 by Lord Fingolfin