Nevar Fergit

[WarriorConcept]

FAN wasn't, and GATO only was after a far longer time at war than \m/. It took FAN almost a year and a half and GATO three months. \m/ fought for 10 days. GPA went longer without terms than \m/.

FAN did have terms the whole time, if you talked to Moo like I did you would have heard so yourself. FAN was just very selective about what kind of peace they wanted.

[Chief Savage Man]

The Unjust War was a bloody and confusing travesty. Rivalry became hatred, dedication became zeal and I got banned. Not the best of times.

[Rebel Virginia]

FAN did have terms the whole time, if you talked to Moo like I did you would have heard so yourself. FAN was just very selective about what kind of peace they wanted.

They would take nothing less than a white peace, and for good reason too. The terms they got the first time were made to be broken - by the NPO. We deliberately failed to protect them, and we fabricated violations at the end so we had an excuse to attack them. And you know something, had they been given terms a second time the NPO would have attacked them again. FAN terrified the NPO, so we wanted a way to get them out of peace mode and disarmed so we could have an easy slaughter.

As for \m/, had you guys been a worthwhile alliance you would have made it. You folded in just over a week. You could have gotten terms, but not after at least another round or two of wars, and you know what else? Polar, unlike the Pacific, would have been respectable enough to uphold whatever sort of bargain you two came to. Because aside from a few such as myself, NPO government was full of dishonest people. So really, there is no comparing \m/ to FAN. That alliance doesn't even deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as the latter.

[Fallen Fool]

Remember, we're just here to tell interesting stories, not have the same arguments we've had for the last 2 years.

The most interesting story from that time period is the story of how events unfolded and why they ended up the way they did. That's pretty much what we've been discussing since Hal jumped up on his soapbox

Actions in the viridicide? You mean where we said we specifically did not want to attack VE?

I mean when you chose to jump on GGA's anti-Green bandwagon and assist in the forcible eviction of alliances from their home sphere.

The actions about our leaders being banned then unbanned because we really didn't do anything wrong?

Whether they were guilty or not, their behavior was atrocious during the incident in question, and in the weeks following it. So atrocious in fact that they were once again removed from this world.

As for the rest of WUT bailing, well they were survivor oriented and didn't care about fighting for their true friends. They showed their true colors by lying to our faces and planning against us behind our backs while having a treaty with us. They got what they deserved eventually.

And you say I'm spewing propaganda designed to make themselves feel better

Just fixing the history revision, my bad.

How can you fix the truth? Unless of course your referring to your own revisionism, in which case the truth becomes "truth."

One final point on this topic before moving on: the Old Regime of NpO was removed from power as a result of the War of the Coalition. That was the primary objective of the war, along with reducing BLEU in power and influence. It was mission accomplished all around. The True Polaris Believers would like people to think that because Polaris didn't disband that *they* won a victory. They "won" nothing, they lost everything. If Polaris survived, it was because those attacking it had no desire to kill it as an alliance. Those that remained at Polaris post-war were survivors, not winners.

Where have I claimed that the SPW was a victory? Where has any Polar claimed that the SPW was a victory?

The Second Patriotic War was a loss. A real and damaging loss that we have only very recently recovered from materially, and which took us a long time to recover from psychologically. I will admit that here. I will admit that there. I will admit that anywhere.

I was pleased with how Polaris moved on from that war. Grub did a wonderful job. Such a good job, I personally pushed through a MDoAP between Ragnarok and NpO. The world had changed. Sadly, all too often old war veterans don't.

I am well aware of the fact that the world has changed and, contrary to your assertions, I have sought to change with the times. [OOC] After all, if you get to be the Nixon of the RoK-Polar treaty, then I get to be at least half of Zhou Enlai.[/OOC]

That doesn't change the fact, however, that at heart I believe in Polar. I believe in the justness of (almost) all of our causes, and I am more then willing to fight to protect my community regardless of the circumstances. That's what makes me a true believer. Not the fact that I still really hate \m/ and GOONS from the UJW period.

FAN did have terms the whole time, if you talked to Moo like I did you would have heard so yourself. FAN was just very selective about what kind of peace they wanted.

So you agree with me. \m/ decided not to fight for real terms like FAN did, and instead chose to give up.

Well I'm glad we got that disagreement out of the way!

[Mussolandia]

snip

Hey, Mr. Shadows, thanks for the memories. This should help prove to the peanut gallery that I know what I am talking about, or as Hal would put it, a "true believer". I believe in reality, which I helped shape.

That conversation alone shows what the NPO's strategy in that war was. The NPO saw its future One Vision bloc as more reliable allies than the erratic UJP, which had had half its leaders [ooc]eliminated from the game[/ooc] a few weeks prior.

I suggest everyone ignore WC's and Hal's protestations of loyalty. Had we not supported Polar's side, the NPO's influence would have been greatly eroded and we would have been GOONS' next succulent target. They were in it to win, just like we were. Those people could sniff weakness and, by golly, the NPO was really week in September 2007. \m/ and all the other UJP allies would have gone with them all the way in taking us down.

It was messy, but it was the right choice to make. Remaining neutral would have ensured NPO was disliked by both sides. Attacking Polar's side was political (and probably military) suicide. At the same time, the NPO hoped for limited engagement, considering the alliance was damaged and demoralized after taking on FAN basically on its own. The war was indeed won before it was fought, but NPO's position tipped a number of allies to Polar's side. MHA is the glaring example in that conversation, but I can also think of the Ring Cycle fellows off the top of my head. This fact was sadly long forgotten by Sponge and Random, despite my several reminders of how substantial the NPO's contribution to ~ victory was.

I'm proud of having played a small part in history and of having defended the interests of my alliance at this time. Had the NPO not reinterpreted the outcome of the war as wrongly as it did and continued its allegiance to the Polar side of the world, it might not find itself in the position it is in today. But that's a matter for another thread and another time.

Again, Mr. Shadows, thanks for the memories.

[OneBallMan]

I suggest everyone ignore WC's and Hal's protestations of loyalty. Had we not supported Polar's side, the NPO's influence would have been greatly eroded and we would have been GOONS' next succulent target. They were in it to win, just like we were. Those people could sniff weakness and, by golly, the NPO was really week in September 2007. \m/ and all the other UJP allies would have gone with them all the way in taking us down.

I can speak for TPF, and there is no doubt that we wouldn't have played any part in an attack on Pacifica. Not that that would have made much of a difference, with our relative size and lack of military strength and prowess. The loyalty towards GOONS was greatly impacted by the leadership change in the weeks previous and the general lack of respect of GOONS members to us.

[Bob Janova]

At that time, if in the Unjust War NPO had fought against ~ and won, leaving Polar and IRON out of the way, GOONS would probably then have been able to destroy them alone. GOONS just before the Unjust War were larger in NS and score than NPO, and materially much better prepared for war (FAN had been nuking NPO for some time by that point). They had 200 nations at 3999 infra or better to NPO's 150, meaning many more nuke-capable nations, although NPO had an advantage at the very top end. (Yes, I have top end target lists for all the major alliances just pre-war, as I imagine a lot of people from that time do.)

I think Musso is right though that by entering on the UjH side, they'd probably just have lost immediately, although if they had brought MHA, IRON and TOP with them then perhaps not.

[janax]

UjW, I was an irrelevant 6K nation in an MHA flight with RustyNails and AnAgent. We stomped on a bunch of Goons.

All 3 of us had joined the MHA less than 2 weeks before it started, and got into our first war immediately.

2 years later, Regent, ViceRegent and Minister of War for Argent.

[WarriorConcept]

The most interesting story from that time period is the story of how events unfolded and why they ended up the way they did. That's pretty much what we've been discussing since Hal jumped up on his soapbox

I mean when you chose to jump on GGA's anti-Green bandwagon and assist in the forcible eviction of alliances from their home sphere.

Whether they were guilty or not, their behavior was atrocious during the incident in question, and in the weeks following it. So atrocious in fact that they were once again removed from this world.

And you say I'm spewing propaganda designed to make themselves feel better

How can you fix the truth? Unless of course your referring to your own revisionism, in which case the truth becomes "truth."

Where have I claimed that the SPW was a victory? Where has any Polar claimed that the SPW was a victory?

The Second Patriotic War was a loss. A real and damaging loss that we have only very recently recovered from materially, and which took us a long time to recover from psychologically. I will admit that here. I will admit that there. I will admit that anywhere.

I am well aware of the fact that the world has changed and, contrary to your assertions, I have sought to change with the times. [OOC] After all, if you get to be the Nixon of the RoK-Polar treaty, then I get to be at least half of Zhou Enlai.[/OOC]

That doesn't change the fact, however, that at heart I believe in Polar. I believe in the justness of (almost) all of our causes, and I am more then willing to fight to protect my community regardless of the circumstances. That's what makes me a true believer. Not the fact that I still really hate \m/ and GOONS from the UJW period.

So you agree with me. \m/ decided not to fight for real terms like FAN did, and instead chose to give up.

Well I'm glad we got that disagreement out of the way!

Let me tell you something about how a treaty, in this case an MADP, works. An ally asks you for help and you help them. If NpO was so against it maybe they shouldn't have stayed treatied to GGA for so long?

And what behavior are you even talking about regarding \m/ leaders? Were you even around for it? Let me fill you in, LE and banned member just happened to reach 100% forum ban on the forums, it built up slowly and took a bait troll get them to it. Please stop speaking as some higher moralist power.

Also sorry if I didn't want to submit our people, living breathing people who play this game for fun, to do basically nothing for about 2 years. That's basically not allowing the players to play, the equivalent of PZI. And as most people here know I'm pretty against it.

I can speak for TPF, and there is no doubt that we wouldn't have played any part in an attack on Pacifica. Not that that would have made much of a difference, with our relative size and lack of military strength and prowess. The loyalty towards GOONS was greatly impacted by the leadership change in the weeks previous and the general lack of respect of GOONS members to us.

You really think we were ever going to attack NPO? Even NPO has already admitted that we would not have attacked them, there was no reason to.

Edited September 24, 2009 by WarriorConcept

[OneBallMan]

You really think we were ever going to attack NPO? Even NPO has already admitted that we would not have attacked them, there was no reason to.

FF referenced that he thought GOONS were going to attack Pacifica next, and claimed that the rest of the UjP were going to be on board. I too doubt that \m/ would have played a part, based on my memory of things, but I can only speak for TPF's mindset at the time.

[WarriorConcept]

FF referenced that he thought GOONS were going to attack Pacifica next, and claimed that the rest of the UjP were going to be on board. I too doubt that \m/ would have played a part, based on my memory of things, but I can only speak for TPF's mindset at the time.

Fair enough, thanks for the clarification.

[Freelancer]

Thank You Shatt for bringing back some memories.

Cybernations for me is strictly for lol, I love the forum drama, especially when something unexpected happens, however I have stepped backed from OWF posting a loved one has intervened and I am now seeking treatment.. More on that later..

During this particular time in history, I was working with some serious personalities to launch our own radio show, Technically we had everything in place to do this, however it always came down to a time thing.

We did a few demo shows and the weekend after MoD gate some players got together and did there thing, during the recording UJP was announced and one of my favorite clips during that interview was Nezzer, to anyone who doesn’t know him, he happens to be Goose’s brother, you got it CSN’s head of state..

I threw this together rather quickly, however his view on shark week and TI is epic in its entirety.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffYSnDwlKwQ

Hopefully the old timers can laugh at this at I did many times.

To some of you new players who have no idea what Sharkweek was I suggest hitting the CN wiki, it was controversial and funny both at the same time.

[Doitzel]

You really think we were ever going to attack NPO? Even NPO has already admitted that we would not have attacked them, there was no reason to.

"Admitted" it in a vain attempt to win allegiance and disavow their ties to the outcome of the UJW, the Polar Order, and the rabid sponge-hate. I dare say that Musso's credibility on the issue is a bit stronger than the Moo clique's, given the former's preference for outright honesty now that he doesn't have much political stake in the matter. Actually Musso is about the only one around anymore who gets it right when it comes to Pacific foreign policy at the time.

Honestly now, the fact that the NPO sided with ~, visibly led by sponge who they were severely at odds with, should be an indicator in itself of just how great a threat the GOONS were perceived to be.

[King Srqt]

"Admitted" it in a vain attempt to win allegiance and disavow their ties to the outcome of the UJW, the Polar Order, and the rabid sponge-hate. I dare say that Musso's credibility on the issue is a bit stronger than the Moo clique's, given the former's preference for outright honesty now that he doesn't have much political stake in the matter. Actually Musso is about the only one around anymore who gets it right when it comes to Pacific foreign policy at the time.

Honestly now, the fact that the NPO sided with ~, visibly led by sponge who they were severely at odds with, should be an indicator in itself of just how great a threat the GOONS were perceived to be.

I can't speak to what the NPO thought at the time but I can say that GOONS would never have had the needed support to launch a successful offensive against Pacifica.

If they tried they would have walked into an even bigger slaughter than the one they faced in the UJW.

[Penkala]

This is a beautiful post. Like poetry.

I think it is hilarious to see anyone compare \m/'s situation to Polar's. Mostly because \m/ folded as soon as they had a real challenge and their only legacy is former members whining for years. Where's Polar again?

Unfortunately it seems Polars are the only ones still living a propaganda life. I am an outsider and probably would have supported ~ during the war, had I been there. \m/ disbanded because of the enemies they were facing and the time they were in. It wasn't like today when you're guaranteed peace after you lose, back then Polar could and simply would not give you peace. Though Polar got beaten down, nobody ever tried to kill you off. So no, you didn't stand in the face of what \m/ stood in the face of (death), you stood in the face of losing a year's worth of growth and getting beaten down, but you knew if you took it it'd be over soon enough. \m/ may well have stayed around had they seen a light at the end of the tunnel like Polar always saw.

If you can't even acknowledge this fact then you're just so blinded that we can't discuss this rationally. Do you at least concede that Polar knew they would be given peace eventually and that \m/ were told they would never be given reasonable peace?

Edit: and yes I agree, Polar and \m/ were attacked for the same basic reasons, though part of Polar's was it was felt that you were a threat. With \m/ people were mad at what they had done, and frankly, they had a right to be. \m/ did some pretty bad stuff.

Edited September 25, 2009 by Penkala

[Rebel Virginia]

You really think we were ever going to attack NPO? Even NPO has already admitted that we would not have attacked them, there was no reason to.

Actually, as head of intelligence back then and one of the top military officers, I had \m/ (along with GOONS) listed as future enemies. I didn't trust you one bit. Your loyalty was to GOONS. My only regret is that NPO did not engage either GOONS or \m/ or MK directly. You have no idea how much I hated you guys, and still do. Especially GOONS. I had kept an extensive watch on your activities for months. Kept on advocating taking you guys out early. But then again, no one else in the government took me seriously. They always were incompetent, as you can see. History has proven me right.

I can't speak to what the NPO thought at the time but I can say that GOONS would never have had the needed support to launch a successful offensive against Pacifica.

If they tried they would have walked into an even bigger slaughter than the one they faced in the UJW.

If Polar was taken out, along with their allies, Pacifica would have been vulnerable. Several allies would have defected to the GOONS side, and several former enemies as well would have relished in the idea of finally taking us out. Polaris was a key pillar in Pacifica's survival, as the War of the Coalition has proven. As soon as Polar was finished, people started eying the NPO.

Edited September 25, 2009 by Rebel Virginia

[Penkala]

Actually, as head of intelligence back then and one of the top military officers, I had \m/ (along with GOONS) listed as future enemies. I didn't trust you one bit. Your loyalty was to GOONS. My only regret is that NPO did not engage either GOONS or \m/ or MK directly. You have no idea how much I hated you guys, and still do. Especially GOONS. I had kept an extensive watch on your activities for months. Kept on advocating taking you guys out early. But then again, no one else in the government took me seriously. They always were incompetent, as you can see. History has proven me right.

If Polar was taken out, along with their allies, Pacifica would have been vulnerable. Several allies would have defected to the GOONS side, and several former enemies as well would have relished in the idea of finally taking us out. Polaris was a key pillar in Pacifica's survival, as the War of the Coalition has proven. As soon as Polar was finished, people started eying the NPO.

I generally agree, GOONS probably would have turned on Pacifica a month or two after the UjW. However, I don't think \m/ would have backed them in it. WC has no reason to lie, it's been two years. \m/ was damn close to NPO. They would have probably sat the war out.

[Rebel Virginia]

I generally agree, GOONS probably would have turned on Pacifica a month or two after the UjW. However, I don't think \m/ would have backed them in it. WC has no reason to lie, it's been two years. \m/ was damn close to NPO. They would have probably sat the war out.

I would have pushed to kill off \m/ regardless. You truly have no idea how overjoyed I was to see them go. I was always in favor of keeping a small amount of allies, and I never did like NPO signing a ton of treaties following the war. \m/ was an inferior alliance anyway. Didn't have it in it to survive when things got rough. It took them all but ten days to disband. Really, for an alliance that thought of itself as tough, I am not the least bit impressed.

[Penkala]

I would have pushed to kill off \m/ regardless. You truly have no idea how overjoyed I was to see them go. I was always in favor of keeping a small amount of allies, and I never did like NPO signing a ton of treaties following the war. \m/ was an inferior alliance anyway. Didn't have it in it to survive when things got rough. It took them all but ten days to disband. Really, for an alliance that thought of itself as tough, I am not the least bit impressed.

At least they fought unlike most people on the losing side of curbstomps now-a-days?

Edited September 25, 2009 by Penkala

[kerschbs]

At least they fought unlike most people on the losing side of curbstomps now-a-days?

A 10 day war? Thats about a nose bleed for what some alliances have gone through. FAN was kept in war mode for what, a year?

[Rebel Virginia]

At least they fought unlike most people on the losing side of curbstomps now-a-days?

Actually the UJP was fairly confident it was going to win. Hence why the had Genmay attack BotS (either that or they were just completely incompetent when it came to foreign affairs). But yes, they did fight. So what? What is the point of fighting when you only disband when mean old Sponge gives you harsh terms? Had \m/ stuck around slightly longer, like any decent alliance would, they would have managed to get peace. I am sure of it.

[Delta1212]

Actually the UJP was fairly confident it was going to win. Hence why the had Genmay attack BotS (either that or they were just completely incompetent when it came to foreign affairs). But yes, they did fight. So what? What is the point of fighting when you only disband when mean old Sponge gives you harsh terms? Had \m/ stuck around slightly longer, like any decent alliance would, they would have managed to get peace. I am sure of it.

I'm pretty sure UJP was incompetent when it came to foreign affairs, actually.

[Rebel Virginia]

I'm pretty sure UJP was incompetent when it came to foreign affairs, actually.

And I completely agree. I just take pleasure in sullying their memory. They were not proponents of fun. They were bullies and cowards to the last of them, and reject alliances, such as the RIA back in the day. A remnant of Aegis, and an NPO hating alliance. I still wonder why you were given peace (same with ASC as well). Or even why alliances formed by former members of UJP alliances, such as RoK or Umbrella, were allowed to form. I'll tell you this, if had had my way none of this would have happened. But no, most leaders haven't what it takes to get the job done right. You need a certain kind of fortitude. That's right. Unfortunately most don't have the stomach for a real man. Makes them feel insecure with themselves you see. Why else was I held back? Because people are jealous, that's why. But my knowledge of my own greatness has always been my comfort, thus I am, as always, content with my own superiority. And that is why you lost the war.

[Comrade Goby]

And I completely agree. I just take pleasure in sullying their memory. They were not proponents of fun. They were bullies and cowards to the last of them, and reject alliances, such as the RIA back in the day. A remnant of Aegis, and an NPO hating alliance. I still wonder why you were given peace (same with ASC as well). Or even why alliances formed by former members of UJP alliances, such as RoK or Umbrella, were allowed to form. I'll tell you this, if had had my way none of this would have happened. But no, most leaders haven't what it takes to get the job done right. You need a certain kind of fortitude. That's right. Unfortunately most don't have the stomach for a real man. Makes them feel insecure with themselves you see. Why else was I held back? Because people are jealous, that's why. But my knowledge of my own greatness has always been my comfort, thus I am, as always, content with my own superiority. And that is why you lost the war.

I agree as well. Kill the piddling peasant alliances so that great, glorious alliances could prosper untarnished by such vagabonds.

[Delta1212]

And I completely agree. I just take pleasure in sullying their memory. They were not proponents of fun. They were bullies and cowards to the last of them, and reject alliances, such as the RIA back in the day. A remnant of Aegis, and an NPO hating alliance. I still wonder why you were given peace (same with ASC as well). Or even why alliances formed by former members of UJP alliances, such as RoK or Umbrella, were allowed to form. I'll tell you this, if had had my way none of this would have happened. But no, most leaders haven't what it takes to get the job done right. You need a certain kind of fortitude. That's right. Unfortunately most don't have the stomach for a real man. Makes them feel insecure with themselves you see. Why else was I held back? Because people are jealous, that's why. But my knowledge of my own greatness has always been my comfort, thus I am, as always, content with my own superiority. And that is why you lost the war.

I love you too, RV.