Warning

[Teriethien]

Oh yes that was totally expected, thats why the NPO should have been destroyed.

How are you any different to the NPO then?

[Francesca]

b. Francesca...you are tired of all the hate towards NPO? You have been a member for less than a month. You will be dead with an ulcer by the time you get to 3 years like some of the core members. If you do not want to deal with the blind hatred, don't join the biggest target of hatred on Planet Bob.

Oh, I can live with it..... however, it just changes the way that I speak at these [OOC] forums. [/OOC] I don't go out of my way to be nice, anymore.

Teah, really...Wtf is this? I thought you were all about the touted ideals of Vox-Populi and now all of a sudden you're joining NPO and are acting like a stooge? Have I got you confused with someone else?

/me scratches head

Opinions, my friend, are not set in stone. Rather, they are (or should be) maleable to change.... such is the mark of an open mind. [OOC] On these forums, I debate IC, often holding views that are more extreme than those that I hold in real life. [/OOC] I am not ashamed of this, indeed, I wish everyone would reconsider their opinions every once in a while and recognise that perhaps hatred of every member of an alliance, simply because of their alliance affiliation, simply isn't rational. Once you have grasped that basic concept, you progress to friendships with Pacificans (oh the horror.) This is what happened to me, and I found myself with so many friendships in NPO that I found, upon reflection, that I didn't hate them anymore.

[Nintenderek]

There are those in this world who feel safer today than they were yesterday. There are those who feel that the days ahead are brighter than the days behind, that they made a difference in the karma war, that the forces of evil have been dealt irreparable damage and that they will never again rule with an iron fist as they once had. This is a false sense of security.

Do to the incompetence and impotence of the forces of karma to finish the job against the NPO and the Hegemony, and by allowing them to live, allowing the ideology which threatens the security of all by placing unlimited power in the hands of the elitist few, and our future is in jeopardy. The leaders of the forces of karma, in there greed, sought to gain technology, money, land and infrastructure. Thinking they can stay ahead and keep the hegemony in check with such gifts, have forsaken those they were to protect for there own benefit.

The evil forces of the hegemony are once again on the rise. The NPO has gone from number 12 to number ten in a few short weeks, they have issued a new maldavi doctrine which is hidden with under lying messages and open to interpitation, they seek to unite the red sphere economically, which is the first step to conquest. They have always been and always will be a threat. But now our future is even more grim. They will seek there revenge on those who have harmed her.

But let me be clear, the NPO herself is not the threat; the ideal of Francoism in which she enshrines is the true threat, an ideal that is changed from one emperor to the next to suit his needs, an ideal that gives him unlimited power by playing off the laws of nature and other ignorance. The ideal creates a system where conquest is not an option but rather a way of life.

One of the gravest mistakes ever made on planet bob is allowing the NPO, allowing Francoism to survive. The NPO will return to exact its revenge, and may Admin have mercy on us all. Now because of this fault military conquest is no longer an option, now other means must be sought and exploited to bring her down to let freedom reign. The NPO and her minions will return and our mistake will cost us dearly.

The fact that your able to post this with out fear of retribution proves Karma is not as bad as you think. I'm not sure why everyone keeps blaming Karma for everything though, considering it no longer exists. It was a war time coalition people. Wartime is over, therefore Karma no longer exists.

Also, about the bolded part, I have not seen or heard of any such thing. Maybe I've just missed it in all the topics lately, however you would think I would have heard about it on IRC if that was the case.

Oh, I can live with it..... however, it just changes the way that I speak at these [OOC] forums. [/OOC] I don't go out of my way to be nice, anymore.

Opinions, my friend, are not set in stone. Rather, they are (or should be) maleable to change.... such is the mark of an open mind. [OOC] On these forums, I debate IC, often holding views that are more extreme than those that I hold in real life. [/OOC] I am not ashamed of this, indeed, I wish everyone would reconsider their opinions every once in a while and recognise that perhaps hatred of every member of an alliance, simply because of their alliance affiliation, simply isn't rational. Once you have grasped that basic concept, you progress to friendships with Pacificans (oh the horror.) This is what happened to me, and I found myself with so many friendships in NPO that I found, upon reflection, that I didn't hate them anymore.

While I can understand no longer hating them, what you did is much more then just a simple change of opinion. You went and joined the thing you fought most against. It makes very little sense especially considering it's only been a few months since you were a member of Vox Populi, fighting the alliance your now in.

Edited September 6, 2009 by Nintenderek

[PrinceCaspian]

Pacifica's ideal is Francoism; the missile is not invented that can kill an ideal.

[Chancellor Bismarck]

Aragorn turned around. On the bridge there stood Pacifica, with its white staff held high in the air. Before him stood the mighty Karma, a large black figure with a whip in one hand and a flaming sword in the other. Lifting his staff high in the air, Pacifica said, "You shall not pass," loud and echoing throughout the chamber.

Karma attempted to take a step forward, and the bridge collapsed from under him. He began falling into the abyss, and his whip came up and grabbed Pacifica by the ankle. Pacifica slid to the edge of the cliff, and looked at Aragorn, and said, "Fly, you fools!" and fell into the darkening hole.

EDIT: As you can see, Pacifica was later ressurected as a more powerful figure, Pacifica the White. I completely agree with your arguments.

Edited September 6, 2009 by Pacifism

[Ashley Smith]

Power is not taken, it is given. The only power is through people. If it is the people's will to give power in a way that you disagree with, there's nothing you can do about it.

Fascism is only bad if you're wrong.

[muffasamini]

How is it that every member has a choice to fight? and how do they have an influance, the NPO is not a direct democracy that I am aware of.

You dont need to have a direct democracy for every member of an alliance to have effect on the NPO. The NPO is run by people, and by a lot of people. Each person, in their efforts, discussion, opinion, and action, effect the march of the Order. Direct democracy (which there are no large scale even real life examples of since its so unstable) is just a medium for people to whine about what should be done. We prefer that you just do it.

[Francesca]

While I can understand no longer hating them, what you did is much more then just a simple change of opinion. You went and joined the thing you fought most against. It makes very little sense especially considering it's only been a few months since you were a member of Vox Populi, fighting the alliance your now in.

I suppose love is stronger than hate. Forgive the cliché.

[DogeWilliam]

To the OP: You have a point good sir. The largest war to date in CN history will soon be quite meaningless. Sure, NPO was brutally mauled. But, they are still sanctioned and the only way for them to go is up. Meanwhile, many of their main enemies aren't quite growing at the same pace. If you add onto this that we have Frostbite emerge(NSO being more franco'ish than NPO itself), we could see a war sooner rather than later.

The only true hope for peace is in the ability for former NPO allies who have become disassociated with the NPO to partner in some sort of power projection with former NPO enemies. In other words, what will the alliances who left NPO before the war do? What will their allies like IRON during the war do? When the NPO has paid their peace terms, who will they try to ally with? Will SF and C&G choose to hold grudges against others or NPO?

All this is very important to the future of Planet Bob. There will be those who will wish war. If we allow the situation to materialize for them to grab that desire, we will have war.

[silentkiller]

uhh Whats wrong with having a war again? I still need to get 3 mil casualties you know

[Qaianna]

What's wrong with a little radio silence?

And as far as Francesca going from Vox Populi to the New Pacific Order ... why not? If memory serves, there were members of the New Pacific Order who had joined Vox Populi. Why is traffic prohibited from going the other way?

Then again, I wonder. I remember the war before this last one. The New POLAR Order was knocked out of its sanction spot, and rather quickly regained it. While they're not exactly MDAP partners anymore, the two did have their similarities.

[HeinousOne]

What's wrong with a little radio silence?

Nothing, so long as one is not toting around a sign saying "Free Speech here!".

[Hydro]

Opinions, my friend, are not set in stone. Rather, they are (or should be) maleable to change.... such is the mark of an open mind. [OOC] On these forums, I debate IC, often holding views that are more extreme than those that I hold in real life. [/OOC] I am not ashamed of this, indeed, I wish everyone would reconsider their opinions every once in a while and recognise that perhaps hatred of every member of an alliance, simply because of their alliance affiliation, simply isn't rational. Once you have grasped that basic concept, you progress to friendships with Pacificans (oh the horror.) This is what happened to me, and I found myself with so many friendships in NPO that I found, upon reflection, that I didn't hate them anymore.

There's a vast difference between being open-minded and doing a total reversal of what you'd been doing previously. I mean seriously, I remember seeing some of your posts where you seemed to take great pride in fighting against NPO as a Vox-Populi member and yet now you'd have us believe that your an ardent NPO member? This simply makes no logical sense, considering that virtually nothing has changed in the NPO, save for a slight infusion of public humility. The only logical reasons that I can think of for such a change of heart are either you simply lack any real convictions or the NPO has found some way to force you into secret terms. Seens how unlikely it is that the NPO would be able to get away with the latter now, it really only leaves the former option open. While I guess it's good to know that whatever you have to say is a load of bunk, I hope you understand the implications of throwing your lot in with the people you claimed to be diametrically opposed to: you will have lost virtually all credibility that you might've had and all for nothing because you're almost certain to never get into any position of power, because the people running the show will always doubt your loyalty due to your time in Vox.

[Ellis]

I'll consider myself warned, and I'll be on guard for any shenanigans from those evil pacificans.

[jer]

There's a vast difference between being open-minded and doing a total reversal of what you'd been doing previously. I mean seriously, I remember seeing some of your posts where you seemed to take great pride in fighting against NPO as a Vox-Populi member and yet now you'd have us believe that your an ardent NPO member? This simply makes no logical sense, considering that virtually nothing has changed in the NPO, save for a slight infusion of public humility. The only logical reasons that I can think of for such a change of heart are either you simply lack any real convictions or the NPO has found some way to force you into secret terms. Seens how unlikely it is that the NPO would be able to get away with the latter now, it really only leaves the former option open. While I guess it's good to know that whatever you have to say is a load of bunk, I hope you understand the implications of throwing your lot in with the people you claimed to be diametrically opposed to: you will have lost virtually all credibility that you might've had and all for nothing because you're almost certain to never get into any position of power, because the people running the show will always doubt your loyalty due to your time in Vox.

Within the quote you included in your post Francesca explains very clearly the reasons behind the move to NPO. Then for some reason in your reply to said quote, you decided to speculate wildly and unsuccessfully as to her reasons for joining NPO, despite them having already been laid out for you in the very post that you quoted! So I must ask you, Hydro, why did you not read the quoted post and if you did; why are you so ignorant as to dismiss such a reasonable explanation out of hand in favour of your own crackpot theories?

OOC: Is it really that hard for you to comprehend that this is a game and adopting different viewpoints and mingling with different sets of people can be fun? It is not real life and if you choose to sit in with the bad guy for a while you do not have to feel ashamed because guess what, it's just a game! Whilst you may think that adopting one opinion and sticking with that throughout your time in this game is the epitome of fun, Francesca is apparently more open-minded. And being open-minded is really not something to criticise anyone for.

Edited September 6, 2009 by Aimee Mann

[D34th]

I lost 18min through this pages, I want the back please.

Edited September 6, 2009 by D34th

[Baden-Württemberg]

Then you were turned to the darkside.

Yes, she was brainwashed. In fact, she has been a Member of the NPO forever, she was a double agent in Vox, and joined MCXA to hide her real roots, because otherwise Doitzel would have realized it is a trap. Oh god, it's out now. I feel so much better.

Guess why she never sent you the real evil screenshots, Vox?

[Francesca]

Yes, she was brainwashed. In fact, she has been a Member of the NPO forever, she was a double agent in Vox, and joined MCXA to hide her real roots, because otherwise Doitzel would have realized it is a trap. Oh god, it's out now. I feel so much better.

Guess why she never sent you the real evil screenshots, Vox?

Oh, God. One of Sam's [OOC] posts [/OOC] made me laugh. I suppose there's a first time for everything.

[Haflinger]

There's a vast difference between being open-minded and doing a total reversal of what you'd been doing previously. I mean seriously, I remember seeing some of your posts where you seemed to take great pride in fighting against NPO as a Vox-Populi member and yet now you'd have us believe that your an ardent NPO member? This simply makes no logical sense, considering that virtually nothing has changed in the NPO, save for a slight infusion of public humility.

See, this is where you're wrong.

[Alterego]

There are those in this world who feel safer today than they were yesterday. There are those who feel that the days ahead are brighter than the days behind, that they made a difference in the karma war, that the forces of evil have been dealt irreparable damage and that they will never again rule with an iron fist as they once had. This is a false sense of security.

Do to the incompetence and impotence of the forces of karma to finish the job against the NPO and the Hegemony, and by allowing them to live, allowing the ideology which threatens the security of all by placing unlimited power in the hands of the elitist few, and our future is in jeopardy. The leaders of the forces of karma, in there greed, sought to gain technology, money, land and infrastructure. Thinking they can stay ahead and keep the hegemony in check with such gifts, have forsaken those they were to protect for there own benefit.

You need to look up the meaning of Hegemony unless it now means defeated and split former enemies. The mission was to break up the global hegemony, it was achieved.

The evil forces of the hegemony are once again on the rise. The NPO has gone from number 12 to number ten in a few short weeks, they have issued a new maldavi doctrine which is hidden with under lying messages and open to interpitation, they seek to unite the red sphere economically, which is the first step to conquest. They have always been and always will be a threat. But now our future is even more grim. They will seek there revenge on those who have harmed her.

As you now know this is all wrong, so i've removed it from your already weak argument.

But let me be clear, the NPO herself is not the threat; the ideal of Francoism in which she enshrines is the true threat, an ideal that is changed from one emperor to the next to suit his needs, an ideal that gives him unlimited power by playing off the laws of nature and other ignorance. The ideal creates a system where conquest is not an option but rather a way of life.

Best of luck finding a way to defeat an idea, nukes cant destroy that. I dont know if you noticed that this unlimited power you speak of proved to have its limitations just a little while ago.

One of the gravest mistakes ever made on planet bob is allowing the NPO, allowing Francoism to survive. The NPO will return to exact its revenge, and may Admin have mercy on us all. Now because of this fault military conquest is no longer an option, now other means must be sought and exploited to bring her down to let freedom reign. The NPO and her minions will return and our mistake will cost us dearly.

So this bright new world you speak of is one that condones and pursues the extermination of alliances because they moved up two places in the alliance rankings and have francoism as an ideal, you might want to look at Frostbite alliances while you are at it?

Edited September 6, 2009 by Alterego

[kingzog]

I have not seen a member who was in good standing that left during a time of peace that has been harassed.

You must not have been around in the weeks before the noCB war, then. I can think of three people -- and this is just off the top of my head -- who were called traitors for leaving Pacifica because they didn't wish to support a war against the NpO. And, before you say otherwise, the people I'm thinking of didn't publish statements telling the world why they left; they just left.

The point is that the Emperor's and IOs' power is based upon the support of their membership, just as Invicta's power is based on the support of our membership. If that membership leaves or betrays us, then we don't have that power anymore. Thus we try to incorporate at least some of their concerns and beliefs into our practices, because that's how we retain support.

That's just common sense. We live in a world where people can vote with their feet for little or no reason.

Notwithstanding this, I encountered a number of people (during the Red Senate 'thing') who were NPO members, voted for me for the Red Senate and yet stayed in the NPO because they were "afraid" (their words, not mine) to leave.

I can understand why, although I cannot imagine the circumstances under which I might follow their example. An alliance so influential that they could have attacked any individual for just about any reason? Check. An alliance that had a pattern of attempting/succeeding/threatening to [OOC]run people from the game?[/OOC] Check.

Please note, though, that in both of the above I speak in the past tense. I'm waiting to see some of this 'new and improved' NPO that Pacificans and their shills keep talking about. I'm not saying it doesn't exist or will not exist, merely that I haven't seen it. Yet.

(If anything, my one experience with NPO 1.1 showed them to be precisely as they were before.)

EDIT: To be fair, NPO's signing of an agreement with other Red alliances is a very good sign.

About Francesca....

I believe Moo put it best on IRC the other night.

Edited September 6, 2009 by kingzog

[delendum]

I'm not sure what's funnier, the poorly written delusions in the OP or Francesca speaking like a true Pacifican martyr.

[Haflinger]

Notwithstanding this, I encountered a number of people (during the Red Senate 'thing') who were NPO members, voted for me for the Red Senate and yet stayed in the NPO because they were "afraid" (their words, not mine) to leave.

I did mention two options, leave or betray. Those people were undermining NPO power through betrayal rather than leaving.

[Kevin McDonald]

My favourite part of this thread is the number of people who painstakingly rebutted each part.

Ignore people like this... common sense? (And yes, I get the irony of me posting here... I never claimed to be smarter than any of you )

Edited September 6, 2009 by Kevin McDonald

[Gondor]

No sir, my problem with the NPO is not the NPO herself, rather Francoism, an ideoligy that blatantly states it is against freedom of speech (On free speech by Z'ha'dum) and its twisting of the laws of nature to provide only security for loyalty as opposed to equality. Francoism is a system of oppression.

Look I'm no NPO advocate, but honestly...

NPO is ranked 10th. They are just about 8 MILLION NS under The Order of the Paradox total NS. To say they are "COMING BACK< RUN FOR THE HILLS!!!" is way overdone. The system that they had was defeated, but unless you are calling for the total disbandment and EZI of the NPO, if they choose (and I"m not saying they have) it won't do anything. The NPO is a significant part of Cyberverse, it would be a lesser world without them.