Adam Suttler Posted September 1, 2009 Report Share Posted September 1, 2009 (edited) You and your friends are the only ones who think they're in a cluster$%&@ of anything. They already said this was based on circumstantial evidence. It's good to know coming to logical conclusions from decent information available is currently beyond your comprehension. You might, might have a point if Athens were to claim they were absolutely, rock solid sure that TSI had passed on information. Unfortunately for you, no such statement was made. If they're not 100% sure that we did it, why publicly incriminate us? Edit: I see, Matthew Conrad, that you may be a dear friend to Athens. However, why are you digging their grave for them, especially with this comment? Edited September 1, 2009 by Adam Suttler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tromp Posted September 1, 2009 Report Share Posted September 1, 2009 You opened this can of worms Londo. You made public claims and you knew you had nothing to back them up with. Maybe Planet Bob has gotten soft and let such things go unchallenged as of late. If that is the case, then things have just changed. The Bad is back baby and their is going to be hell to pay. You amuse me. Good luck to all parties involved though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crushtania Posted September 1, 2009 Report Share Posted September 1, 2009 That's rather unfortunate to hear. Very much so. Good luck to our Athens brothers, KoC and TSI. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyperion321 Posted September 1, 2009 Report Share Posted September 1, 2009 (edited) If they're not 100% sure that we did it, why publicly incriminate us?Edit: I see, Matthew Conrad, that you may be a dear friend to Athens. However, why are you digging their grave for them, especially with this comment? I see no shovel. edit: An explenation of your statement would be appreciated. All I see is us backing up our friends against the "We hate Londo" club. Edited September 1, 2009 by Hyperion321 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AgentofChaos Posted September 1, 2009 Report Share Posted September 1, 2009 I see no shovel.edit: An explenation of our statement would be appreciated. All I see is us backing up our friends against the "We hate Londo" club. I don't hate Londo. Is there a club for me? Now I feel left out because I'm not in a club! I HATE YOU LONDO LET ME IN THE GOD DAMN CLUB! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bjornoya Posted September 1, 2009 Report Share Posted September 1, 2009 (edited) This is exactly what Londo had to gain from making the accusation in the first place with or without proper evidence. Alliances that otherwise had a neutral or non-opinion of us are now feeling compelled to take sides based on how Londo has drawn the lines. Its not enough that he doesn't trust us, the world must not either. And it is safe to say TSI is 'unhappy' with the way Londo approached this situation, but our dissatisfaction with Londo does not reflect entirely on Athens as well. Edited September 1, 2009 by Kaiser Kevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Rune Posted September 1, 2009 Report Share Posted September 1, 2009 but our dissatisfaction with Londo does not reflect entirely on Athens as well. This is the most encouraging thing I've seen in this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivan III Posted September 1, 2009 Report Share Posted September 1, 2009 I have yet to locate the truth in this statement. You never call, we barely talk; this long-distance relationship can't go on like this, Londo. To accuse us of sharing information that you trust us with is simply low, as I have no heard anything of Athenian affairs since the start of the war in general; being a member of government, I can only assume that we are constantly informed of this private information, which we did not receive too often. We honor our allies and their privacy, as others can vouch, so this is rather out of the blue.Let me make this clear, so that everyone understands what's going on. We at TSI have recently voted on dropping our treaty with Athens simply because there was a lack of communication between the both of us; simply put, it wasn't working out. For Athens to have the balls to fabricate such an excuse as us giving away their private information is both unsavory and ludicrous. I assume we are both basing it on the same lack of communication, and that we were separately planning the same thing, except that you beat us to the post. I'm fairly disappointed that things turned out this way; when we started the treaty, we were all around good friends. But this whole lack of communication, along with the Karma War, forced our two alliances apart. But seeing the accusations that Athens so ungraciously laid upon us, it is now no wonder to me as to why things are the way they are now. ^^This was not needed at all. If you wanted to rebuttal, there's no way you should have put that here. Now, it's either me making sense or it's my cold.... DON"T ANSWER THAT! yea, that part was the cold..... I don't know what they've told you about us but I'm not gay. Of coarse not, that would be the Romans; just joking. You know I like both sides of the Roman-Greek thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Bad Posted September 1, 2009 Report Share Posted September 1, 2009 I see no shovel.edit: An explenation of your statement would be appreciated. All I see is us backing up our friends against the "We hate Londo" club. I don't hate Londo, I always liked the guy. That does not change the fact that he is wrong and he knows it. TSI was killing the treaty and Athens decided to beat them to it. Thats fine. But tossing in an accusation that attempts to destroy an alliances reputation is wrong. And if anyone on Planet Bob thinks that it is ok, then this place sure has fallen on hard times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coven Posted September 1, 2009 Report Share Posted September 1, 2009 (edited) I find this all ironic... Some people will never be happy. So many treaty cancellations, and everyone always cries for reasons... We give reasons, you cry for proof... If we give you proof, you will STILL cry about something. So what is the point? I am sorry to see treaty cancellations, as it marks a change in the relationship that was once there, but sometimes they are more necessary than others. I believe this is one of those times. Good luck to all in the future. The reason for the "call of proof" has nothing to do with the treaty cancellation itself, even TSI said they were ready to part ways with Athens, it was all just based on lack of communication. The real problem lies in that TSI has had its name dragged through the mud over baseless accusations, to which even after a couple dozen shout outs for proof in this thread from various individuals, there still has been no government officials within Athens to put forward any evidence to support their claims. Therefore, TSI has every right to demand a response, and demand that either proof is given, or the accusations are dropped. Again, the treaty cancellation has nothing to do with the uproar that this has caused, it has to do with slandering an alliance, and having no proof. And that is a big "no-no" Athens. I will admit that I stopped reading after page seven, but I can still see this hasn't been resolved, and that proof still needs to be given, or the accusation dropped (hopefully with an apology from Athens). However that is not my place to further comment on, and the specifics of this have nothing to do with myself, and I know TSI is more than capable of handling that all on their own. I just wanted to put into words my thoughts, and the thoughts of those asking for proof, as some of the heads of the accusing side seem to be a bit dense on the subject. Good day. Edited September 1, 2009 by Airikr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyperion321 Posted September 1, 2009 Report Share Posted September 1, 2009 (edited) I don't hate Londo, I always liked the guy. That does not change the fact that he is wrong and he knows it. TSI was killing the treaty and Athens decided to beat them to it. Thats fine. But tossing in an accusation that attempts to destroy an alliances reputation is wrong. And if anyone on Planet Bob thinks that it is ok, then this place sure has fallen on hard times. Wait wait wait. You are saying that Londo is throwing out baseless accusations in an attempt to destory an alliances' reputation? You are saying that Londo's accusations are an indications of hard times? That little group called Hegemony which you were a part of threw out baseless accusations against Sparta that we destroyed Q from the inside. Those accusations are far worse than anything in this thread, and they too were in an attempt to destroy our reputation. How can you possibly claim Londo's actions are an indication of hard times when you yourselves practiced the same thing agianst us. Edited September 1, 2009 by Hyperion321 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coven Posted September 1, 2009 Report Share Posted September 1, 2009 (edited) Wait wait wait. You are saying that Londo is throwing out baseless accusations in an attempt to destory an alliances' reputation? You are saying that Londo's accusations are an indications of hard times?That little group called Hegemony which you were a part of threw out baseless accusations against Sparta that we destroyed Q from the inside. Those accusations are far worse than anything in this thread, and they too were in an attempt to destroy our reputation. How can you possibly claim Londo's actions are an indication of hard times when you yourselves practiced the same thing agianst us. I'm not trying to drag an old conversation about Hegemony, and the Karma War, etc., into this, but since the door was opened, I think it need be shut. Old acts from Hegemony have no bearing in this discussion, what was done by Hegemony was punished for in the Karma war, there can be no more "But your side did it, so its ok if we do!". No, Hegemony paid for the past, and what was done in the past has no bearing here. After Karma promised change, and promised to the world that the old ways would end, it seems quite funny that a blind accusation would come from Athens. Kind of double talk, no? What I believe the BigBad was referencing, is that it is just "more of the same", and that if this is indeed the direction that Athens follows, then we should just welcome the new Hegemony right here and now. Edited September 1, 2009 by Airikr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haflinger Posted September 1, 2009 Report Share Posted September 1, 2009 Wait wait wait. You are saying that Londo is throwing out baseless accusations in an attempt to destory an alliances' reputation? You are saying that Londo's accusations are an indications of hard times?That little group called Hegemony which you were a part of threw out baseless accusations against Sparta that we destroyed Q from the inside. Those accusations are far worse than anything in this thread, and they too were in an attempt to destroy our reputation. How can you possibly claim Londo's actions are an indication of hard times when you yourselves practiced the same thing agianst us. Hyperion... Sparta had been on the "karma" side of this war for months before it even happened, back when the war looked like it was going to be dead even (More NS on the Hegemony side, but more nukes on the Karma side). Our government and scope as an alliance has changed quite a bit, much like the government and scope of the New Polar Order has. I guess they have a patent on change, though, and no one else is allowed to do so. Shucks. :\ George said it, not Hegemony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyperion321 Posted September 1, 2009 Report Share Posted September 1, 2009 (edited) I'm not trying to drag an old conversation about Hegemony, and the Karma War, etc., into this, but since the door was opened, I think it need be shut.Old acts from Hegemony have no bearing in this discussion, what was done by Hegemony was punished for in the Karma war, there can be no more "But your side did it, so its ok if we do!". No, Hegemony paid for the past, and what was done in the past has no bearing here. After Karma promised change, and promised to the world that the old ways would end, it seems quite funny that a blind accusation would come from Athens. Kind of double talk, no? What I believe the BigBad was referencing, is that it is just "more of the same", and that if this is indeed the direction that Athens follows, then we should just welcome the new Hegemony right here and now. Except that those accusations were thrown around both during and after the Karma war, and ever since then the trolls never miss an opporunity to say it, regardless of how stupid it sounds. Karma punished Hegemony for everything in the past, but that doesn't mean their idiot count just goes back down to zero and they get more leeway to say stupid !@#$. Lies are lies, no matter how many times they get beaten down for it. George said it, not Hegemony. [ooc]All of you guys must have that quote saved on your comps don't you[/ooc]. He's explained his statement countless times before, and I'm not going to do it again just because I know that there are fresh [ooc]players[/ooc] viewing this that never saw the conversations about that quote the first 9,000 times. If they really want to know Sparta's position, they can ask for it. If they want to take your word for it and believe we're evil...well...good for them. Our allies and friends know what happened, and that's good enough for us. Seriosuly, Hal. I know we've already talked about that quote with you on these forums before. You bringing it up agian just shows that rather than having a real conversation you want to take meaningless pot shots that have already been talked about to death. I'm more than happy to respond to posts with substance, so I would like to request that your responce contain some. Edited September 1, 2009 by Hyperion321 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coven Posted September 1, 2009 Report Share Posted September 1, 2009 (edited) Except that those accusations were thrown around both during and after the Karma war, and ever since then the trolls never miss an opporunity to say it, regardless of how stupid it sounds. Karma punished Hegemony for everything in the past, but that doesn't mean their idiot count just goes back down to zero and they get more leeway to say stupid !@#$. Lies are lies, no matter how many times they get beaten down for it. That's grand and all, but as I said, has no bearing in this accusation. Even if accusations were said by others before and after the war, it still doesn't give Athens the excuse to follow suit. As I said, if we truly are apart of this wonderful new age that Karma promised, than there can be no more "Your side did it, so therefore we can to!". That is not only childish, but also proves that there was no change, only a shift in power, and that the coalition of Karma (now gone), but that the alliance's whom were involved, are now the new Hegemony, and are allowed to justify what they deem fit, and break their own promised change. If that's real change, than Webster failed. Athens needs to supply proof, or drop the accusation. Edited September 1, 2009 by Airikr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyperion321 Posted September 1, 2009 Report Share Posted September 1, 2009 That's grand and all, but as I said, has no bearing in this accusation. Even if accusations were said by others before and after the war, it still doesn't give Athens the excuse to follow suit. Athens is not following suit with any Hegemonic behavior. Athens has come to a reasonable conclusion based on the evidence in front of them, whereas the Hegemony had absolutely no grounds to claim that Sparta betrayed them in any sense of the word. Athens has not used this situation as propoganda or in an attempt to destroy TSI's morale, while the Hegemony contstantly harrased Spartan representatives on these forums and turned their every word into propoganda. No sir, Athens is nothing like Hegemony. As I said, if we truly are apart of this wonderful new age that Karma promised, than there can be no more "Your side did it, so therefore we can to!". Again, I have not seen any repetitions of Hegemonic behavior from Athens. Athens has, for lack of a better term, probable cause while the Hegemony did not. If you can point out where any Athenian said "Hegemony lied about us, so we're going to lie about them", I'll eat my shoe. That is not only childish, but also proves that there was no change, only a shift in power, and that the coalition of Karma (now gone), but the alliance whom were involved, are now the new Hegemony, and are allowed to justify what they deem fit, and break their own promised change. If that's real change, than Webster failed.Athens needs to supply proof, or drop the accusation. There has been change. If there wasn't any change, Athens would have blitzed TSI to hell. Instead, they just cut off relations. How cruel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Suttler Posted September 1, 2009 Report Share Posted September 1, 2009 I see no shovel.edit: An explenation of your statement would be appreciated. All I see is us backing up our friends against the "We hate Londo" club. I'd like to point out his statement about Athens not being entirely sure about us being the ones passing on this information. If what MC said is true, then he just managed to damn Athens down just that bit more, thus making my comment relevant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyperion321 Posted September 1, 2009 Report Share Posted September 1, 2009 I'd like to point out his statement about Athens not being entirely sure about us being the ones passing on this information. If what MC said is true, then he just managed to damn Athens down just that bit more, thus making my comment relevant. Painting a statement in this way requires at least a link or a quote to back it up. Do you have one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Suttler Posted September 1, 2009 Report Share Posted September 1, 2009 ^^This was not needed at all. If you wanted to rebuttal, there's no way you should have put that here.Now, it's either me making sense or it's my cold.... DON"T ANSWER THAT! yea, that part was the cold..... I'm really not sure what you mean by this. This was a direct response to Londo's OP. He blatantly smeared TSI's credibility, and this is a response addressing the truth of the situation. I don't see what you see wrong with this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Suttler Posted September 1, 2009 Report Share Posted September 1, 2009 (edited) Painting a statement in this way requires at least a link or a quote to back it up. Do you have one? I have only his words to back it up, same as he had Londo's. Now you know what it feels like to get inconclusive evidence. Whether there is truth in that statement, I suggest you contact Matthew Conrad regarding that. Edit: Sorry for double post. Arguing with one argument after another :S Edited September 1, 2009 by Adam Suttler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyperion321 Posted September 1, 2009 Report Share Posted September 1, 2009 I have only his words to back it up, same as he had Londo's. Now you know what it feels like to get inconclusive evidence. Whether there is truth in that statement, I suggest you contact Matthew Conrad regarding that. Edit: Sorry for double post. Arguing with one argument after another :S That's just it isn't it. We have some people's words vs the words of others. This conversation is doomed to end up like all the ones before it. Everyone comes in hear puffing their chest saying the other side is wrong. Ex Heggos come in here talking about lack of change. Ex Karmas come in here telling the ex Heggos to shut the hell up. Bad jokes are made by both sides talking about the faults of other players that may or may not have happened years ago. [ooc]Mods will come in and tell everyone to stay on topic, and when that doesn't happen, this thread will get locked.[/ooc] It's all rather pointless, and yet we do it every day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coven Posted September 1, 2009 Report Share Posted September 1, 2009 That's just it isn't it. We have some people's words vs the words of others. This conversation is doomed to end up like all the ones before it. Everyone comes in hear puffing their chest saying the other side is wrong. Ex Heggos come in here talking about lack of change. Ex Karmas come in here telling the ex Heggos to shut the hell up. Bad jokes are made by both sides talking about the faults of other players that may or may not have happened years ago. [ooc]Mods will come in and tell everyone to stay on topic, and when that doesn't happen, this thread will get locked.[/ooc]It's all rather pointless, and yet we do it every day. Then have the accusation revoked, and we can lower our puffed out chest, and have real change for once. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Suttler Posted September 1, 2009 Report Share Posted September 1, 2009 This thread isn't about the Hegemony or Karma. This is about TSI and Athens. They can't prove that we did anything wrong. If that's the case, our question is why our alliance's name had to be slandered when there's no concrete reason to do so? If there's a reason, how come it has not been given for the past 20 pages? This is all based on cause and effect. Proof = point made. No proof = severe backfiring of intent (which is happening now, because Athens still can't seem to figure out why they decided TSI should take the hit for something that went on during the war. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyperion321 Posted September 1, 2009 Report Share Posted September 1, 2009 Then have the accusation revoked, and we can lower our puffed out chest, and have real change for once. I can't have anything done, nor do I want anything to be done. I'm sure you didn't intend to mean that Sparta should pressure Athens into doing anything, so I'll leave it at that. I am one of over 600 Spartans that both stand with and agree with Athens in their decision, which is exactly what it is...their decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivan III Posted September 1, 2009 Report Share Posted September 1, 2009 (edited) This thread isn't about the Hegemony or Karma. This is about TSI and Athens. They can't prove that we did anything wrong. If that's the case, our question is why our alliance's name had to be slandered when there's no concrete reason to do so? If there's a reason, how come it has not been given for the past 20 pages?This is all based on cause and effect. Proof = point made. No proof = severe backfiring of intent (which is happening now, because Athens still can't seem to figure out why they decided TSI should take the hit for something that went on during the war. Actually, this thread is about Athens only. What you are putting in here SHOULD NOT be in here. this thread is about ODP cancellations, not about who is right or wrong or proof/no proof. Get real or GET YOUR OWN THREAD. Sheesh, people Edited September 1, 2009 by Ivan III Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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