TGE Aggression

[nosoup4you]

*sigh* I had hoped to save all involved parties from further displays of idiocy but I see you are intent on continuing this bit of bad PR for your alliance.

[Captain Flinders]

Red: That came off very very rude and disrespectful.

You brought up his ego. I don't see how it is rude to expand on the topic you brought up and prove your point wrong. You certainly didn't prove your point enough.

Blue: So, if an alliance tried to bait another alliance into war or whatever, what is the best policy? Not talking to an alliance so that no "Heated arguments" (Noticed how I said arguments and not debates) and no more "Hostilities" happen, I find that is an ok thing to do. If this stops all uncivilly and disrespect for at least a while, along with stopping the "No-U" arguments, ok fine. I really don't want a "Heated Debate" to turn into a war; so to speak.

It was merely a fraction of my point as to your freedom to speak in TGE. But it should be noted that one cannot really "bait" someone to war. The decision to go to war is always under one's control as is their conduct with others.

[Vijaya]

For the record, as my friend JAM says, above, I did (through our MoFA, Elfriede Riotte), ask Michigans Own not to post this thread. :y

Without commenting on the relative merits of any arguments presented herein, I will say to you, Ivan, you have latched onto some bizarre ideas. It was never the desire of RoA (or any of our allies, for that matter) to "bait" TGE into anything, and whoever has been telling you that is pulling your leg.

As Elfriede says, I do wish we could just put this to bed. Whatever the issue is between Michigans Own and TGE, I cannot pretend to know. Whatever issues exist between TGE and RoA will, in good time, be resolved (or not), but no resolution will come in the hallowed halls of OWF, but rather in private channels, which is where this entire argument should have begun and ended.

Private channels FTW.

Edited August 29, 2009 by Valdemar

[kingzog]

I just want to saw something,

Kingzog, you present with all the same "Facts" as you did months ago. Your "Debates are nothing but worthless pieces of spam (I mean spam as in food but both ways work). You use the same arguments and they never change, the only thing that changes are you sarcastic tones. If you can't say anything new, you don't have to be here.

I find it unlikely that I am presenting the same facts I did months ago, when one of the points I raised involved something that happened only a few weeks ago.

But hey, maybe I'll stop when someone from TGE either apologizes for them or even acknowledges that they happened.

Your Kaiser attempted to bully me into telling Kaiser Martens that he was not welcome in Nordreich. That is a fact, and can be confirmed by Nordreich's former protector. The incident stems from a more than two-year-old grudge that K-Fred has against Martens (this is according to your Kaiser himself, lest I be accused of putting words in his mouth) and is an ideal example of the quality of your leader's character.

The incicdent with RoA and the "Nordreich plant" accusation happened only a few weeks ago. If your Kaiser genuinely believed it, he should have said so publicly instead of beginning a whispering campaign against Valdemar. Of course, doing so would have revealed him as a lying snake and had him laughed at even more than usual, so I can understand why he did not take this course of action. I should like to add that, if he genuinely believed it, he would have had an ideal CB to instigate a war against Nordreich. Thus I am to some extent torn as to whether your Kaiser is a liar, a fool, a coward or some ghastly mix of all three. If you can illuminate me on this point, please do.

You have decided to take advantage of this thread to parrot some rather obvious nonsense about your alliance and its leader. You have been called on it repeatedly. I do not care if this hurts your feelings. I do not care if it sends you into such a rage that you say all sorts of insulting things that make your alliance -- not just yourself -- look terrible. If anything, I want you to post more on the subject. Let it all out. You'll feel better, and we'll all get a good laugh at your expense. Win-win, right?

You are correct about one thing, though. I don't have to be here. Then again, mine are not the half-baked ravings of some lunatic who cannot keep his temper under control. Everything I am presenting has the advantage of being the irrefutable truth, which may be why it stings so much and why you are so eager to dismiss it.

Regardless, please continue.

[Alfred von Tirpitz]

Wait what? Valdemar? a Nordreich plant??

[Augustus Autumn]

Wait what? Valdemar? a Nordreich plant??

One of the more amusing falsehoods planted along the way.

[Reinhard Scheer]

Again, in accordance to the wishes of others, I'll intervene here again.

I heard it in passing and discussed it with Fred. This was a gross error of judgment on part because I normally never spoke to him about speculation but only things that had some logical probability. I dismissed it as not even I couldn stretch my mind around that one. But as Valdemar said to me:

Whatever your reasons for indulging Fred in this crackpot theory, I cannot believe that a man of your intelligence could have done so unaware of the harm it would cause.

He is quite correct. As one of the main conduits to Fred, being that he was away for the summer, I would send reports on to him about how TGE were faring and this was basically tacked on as a footnote. He obviously took it at face value. I'm normally a lot more conscientious about things. I have apologized about this to RoA, here in this thread and on private channels. It was a most hurtful rumor about someone who had given much time, energy and passion for the cause of the Empire and I should not have humored it. It made my position untenable and I am heartened by the fact that RoA are willing to move on and start talking again. For that reason, I see some hope for the future if such overtures are acted upon as I believe they will be.

On other matters that persist in this thread:

Ivan, I mentioned to you that this was obviously a hack job as Mada has confirmed. GraniteKnight has got his wish so I think it best you take the sound advice offered by RoA and leave this now for private channels. It might be the only way it gets resolved.

La Hire I know quite well and he is a very understanding guy. I was part of the initial discussion group engaged in setting up a deal with the EU. He offered funding, I accepted. They are a neutral alliance and their protectorate was more complex than others that I was dealing with - there is no doubt that it needs to be revised but that is not for me to argue about anymore.

The blackout, as I mentioned before, needs to end. My way is not the best way for TGE and I think everyone realizes that now. RoA are sincere and gracious in their offer and I can but hope it turns a corner. I wish them the best with that.

As for the attacks on Fred - to be honest, from my understanding of the man, he couldn't care less. I don't think he is going to address any of the criticism repeated ad nauseam in this thread. I think he will act on the RoA offer. If I don't like somebody in RL, I give them a smack in the mouth. In a game, go ahead and try to ZI his alliance. But all this standing behind a wall and throwing taunts back and forth - well at this stage, it looks like a Mod edited my post because it was inappropriate.

Edited August 29, 2009 by Harry Tuttle
Inappropriate language/flaming.

[kingzog]

If I don't like somebody in RL, I give them a smack in the mouth.

lol

[OOC]It's not a real thread until an 'Internet tough guy' shows up.[/OOC]

[Reinhard Scheer]

lol

[OOC]It's not a real thread until an 'Internet tough guy' shows up.[/OOC]

Sorry, trying to put the point across that its what anyone would normally do when provoked. You know, do something tangible about it. I answer most of your questions and you simply change the question or get a little snitty. And its hard enough to answer anything when all I've heard you say is, "That mean and nasty 'ol Kaiser, twied to tell me who to put in my alliance but I outsmarted him. He's a paranoid weglomaniac I tells you" - yes, hard to do anything with a straight face in this thread.

[kingzog]

Sorry, trying to put the point across that its what anyone would normally do when provoked. You know, do something tangible about it. I answer most of your questions and you simply change the question or get a little snitty. And its hard enough to answer anything when all I've heard you say is, "That mean and nasty 'ol Kaiser, twied to tell me who to put in my alliance but I outsmarted him. He's a paranoid weglomaniac I tells you" - yes, hard to do anything with a straight face in this thread.

It wasn't a matter of outsmarting him but rather of telling him that it wasn't his place to dictate who could or could not belong to the alliance I led. When asked why this was so important to him, he revealed that it stemmed from an extremely old grudge that he would not let go of. The details are irrelevant. What is/was important was that it had transpired more than two years before.

In short, he was displaying the emotional level of a small child, and I believe that this is something that both TGE's supporters and detractors need to be reminded of. At one time or another I have spoken with all of TGE's allies (current and former) and nearly all of them have described dealing with K-Fred as something of a surreal experience. Thus I'm not surprised TGE is slowly but surely finding itself isolated on the world stage, while bleeding members as well.

I fail to see how this would make me an Elmer Fudd-like character, since by your own standards one ought to "do something about it" when provoked, and K-Fred's intervention with respect to the alliance I led was clearly provocative. And, frankly, I think you're hardly in any position to mock anyone, since you have already admitted to being the person responsible for spreading the idiotic rumor about Valdemar. Your own credibility is approaching zero courtesy of your own actions and admissions. I'm sorry if this makes you so upset that you feel compelled to go smack someone in the mouth because of it.

It does seem, however, that the matter raised in the OP has been addressed, so I can take my leave until the next time someone with the marvelous skills of an Ivan III or yourself comes along in a laughable attempt to rescue K-Fred from himself.

[La Hire]

I feel this whole thread has been blown way out of proportion, I would like to clarify what occurred for everyone... from the very beginning.

I founded the European Union along with Neron3, who is not very active on these forums (and neither am I for that matter). When creating the alliance, Neron3 and I both agreed that forming the alliance without a protector would not be wise. We contemplated the various options, we both have connections and many friends at TGE and after considering other alliances we decided to go with TGE. As I have stated before, this occurred at the precise time TGE was recovering from damages sustained during the Karma War. TGE was not in a position where they could not provide protection to us, however they had lost a lot of their strength.

When I first joined Cybernations (over 2 years ago), TGE was my very first alliance, they taught me how to play the game, supported me when I was attacked, and gave me aid to build my nation. I was a member at TGE for almost 2 years (I was briefly a member of Ordo Arcana, before rejoining TGE) so when coming back to my old home for protection for our new alliance, I could not bare to rely off of TGE without giving something in return, not only because of the Karma War, but also because it is my true home and I wanted to do for them what they had done for me. So I spoke to various members of TGE's government and asked if I could help provide aid to their members. The aid was given by me to TGE, nobody else at The European Union gave any aid to TGE. The aid was an act of charity, not of payment for services.

Roughly two weeks after The European Union was formed, Graniteknight joined our alliance. He became our Minister of Foriegn Affairs, and did a magnificent job at it for several months. It was not until after these months, that I learned of Graniteknight's hatred for TGE, he refused to speak to them and was displeased with them being our protectors. Then, TGE approached us about the subject of the RoA. At the time, I had never heard of "The Republic of Aquisgrana". They informed us that they were severing all ties with RoA and explained their reasons for doing so.

The way our government works, we have 3 leaders (MoFA, an Economic Leader and a Military Leader) we are a triumvarate with me being the Economic Leader, Neron3 being the Military Leader and Graniteknight was our MoFA. 2/3 people have to agree on a desicion for it to pass. I discussed the RoA situation with Neron3, and after delibarating we decided by ourselves, and without obligation by TGE that we would also proceed with a blackout of RoA. Since the two of us had already agreed on the desicion, it was already final and did not need the approval of the MoFA. As I mentioned, Graniteknight has a large hatred of TGE, and (as I then learned) has many friends at RoA, so I thought that rather than hearing of this news from me or Neron3 it would be better if he heard it directly from TGE. When the blackout was explained to him he lashed out in anger and swore several times at TGE diplomats. This is the second time he had done this to foriegn diplomats as an official represntative of The European Union (I can produce chat logs of what happened on both occasions to prove this). I then told him that we could not tolerate that sort of language and behaviour and asked him to leave the alliance.

Edited September 1, 2009 by La Hire

[Fernando12]

Good explanation La Hire. I hope all this ends now. It is doing no one any good to just keep at it. And most of it is repetitive.

Everyone... let it go now. Your alliances need you to focus on much more important things than a he said this but they did that topic that has gone in circles several times now.

Let it go please.

[Vijaya]

Thanks for the explanation, LaHire.

That being said, we (RoA) have extended the hand of friendship to TGE in hopes that all this foolishness can be put behind us all, since in reality this is not an issue with the EU at all, but between RoA and TGE, and based on our conversations with TGE, it is my hope and belief that cooler heads on all sides, ours included, will eventually prevail.

Edited September 1, 2009 by Valdemar

[auto98]

nvm - question answered

Edited September 1, 2009 by auto98

[Ivan III]

Thanks for the explanation, LaHire.

That being said, we (RoA) have extended the hand of friendship to TGE in hopes that all this foolishness can be put behind us all, since in reality this is not an issue with the EU at all, but between RoA and TGE, and based on our conversations with TGE, it is my hope and belief that cooler heads on all sides, ours included, will eventually prevail.

I think we both will, Vald.

[Iosif]

Great show as always, TGE. Totally great.

[William]

My thoughts exactly.

And I still want that monkey.

Uh... does it help to tell you that the monkey was crunchy and good with ketchup?

[The Eye]

Does it help that you gravedug this topic? ... no, no it doesn't.