Statement of Friendship

[Penkala]

Lord Boris has now officially won this argument by relegating Penkala to the "BUT THEY DID EVIL THINGS" retort. Congratulations.

Umm, what? He said Karma has no moral superiority. I pointed out why Karma does have moral superiority. It's simple, really...

Well said. very well said. Penkala and others, come on guys, everyone is entitled to their opinions and their sentiments, but this is a thread about freindship, dont degrade yourself by trying to derail it. From now on lets see just positive comments, their are other threads and channels for such debate.

We already knew about their friendship, they didn't need to tell us about it again.

Edited August 8, 2009 by Penkala

[Ivellios]

well its their right to publish a freindship announcement, stop the aggression mate.

Edited August 8, 2009 by Ivellios

[Heft]

Umm, what? He said Karma has no moral superiority. I pointed out why Karma does have moral superiority. It's simple, really...

Given that I've seen more arrogance and "We do what we want and the world can $%&@ off" posting from Superfriends than from anyone in NPO in the last month or so, it's difficult to really make that claim.

In any case, it's entirely irrelevant to what they were discussing, which had to do with the NPO's attitude.

We already knew about their friendship, they didn't need to tell us about it again.

You didn't like their announcement therefore they shouldn't have made it. Plenty of announcements are worthless and without substance or meaning. I would say this really isn't one of them, but even if it is, it's not something to get upset about.

[Ragashingo]

Well, here I am, 18+ pages late. I'm sure there's been plenty of controversy and I'll probably take the time to read it later, but for now remember this everyone:

Jorost was correct in his opening post. The NPO has gotten its comeuppance and the war in which we banded together to right their wrongs is over. Do we all have to forget what the NPO did in the past? Of course not. But we should be honest enough to judge them, and by extension their friends, by what they have done since the surrender, not before it. To the best of my knowledge the NPO has not made any significant political moves since it surrendered and this statement of friendship is certainly not some dastardly ploy to seek revenge.

If anything it is a statement of something that all alliances wish to have. Off the top of my head GATO has a real friendship with the IAA. The STA has a real friendship with the NpO. There are of course other examples I'm just not thinking of right now. So is it a bad thing that the NPO has a real friendship with Invicta?

Edited August 8, 2009 by Ragashingo

[Il Impero Romano]

Did you read his post? Did you understand his post? Your response says "No."

Well, I thought my response was self explanatory when combined with my previous posts in this thread, but here, just for you:

You talk of arrogance whilst simultaneously lambasting the NPO as an "abnormality" and placing yourself as the spokesman of what the "normal" community wants?

For the love of Admin, do you even read what you write? Or are you so thoroughly convinced of the impregnability of your character that the thought of self-evaluation never even occurs to you?

I don't place myself as any sort of spokes person, but am just merely relaying my opinion on the matter. My charecter is not what is in question, nor was it the topic of my responses or the posts that I responded too, so any sort of personal self evaluation on my part here would make little to no sense in regards to what I wrote. However, it seems you want to focus on me rather then the content of what I was saying.

To be clear, so your not confused, I was not trying to insult Pacifica, nor do I hate Pacifica (I thought this was reasonably inferred by what I said), so there is no measure of arrogance on my part involved. If anything, I was offering a bit of advice that basically breaks down to "Cut it out, and give other people a chance to like you again", yet you then turn around and and accuse me of being...I don't even know...not a good guy? lol

As far as I am concerned, you completely proved my point.

I suppose that creating your artificial divisions allows your subconscious to better preserve the dissonance between your own beliefs and the desire to rationalize and project them onto the Pacific. Humans don't have to question themselves when the "others" are simply "different".

Oh, if only they could act like normal people indeed.

I believe in an effort to use big words in an angry fashion, you missed what I was trying to suggest (or..erm... allow my "subconscious to better preserve the dissonance between my own beliefs and the desire to rationalize and project them onto the Pacific"...aka suggest something lol) entirely. What I stated, what could help shed you all of this hate, was a very simple concept. If you find not being arrogant, not bullying because you can, or any of the other fundamental concepts that I listed as something that is offensive to suggest, you quite clearly have a problem. If, as a "human" what makes you "different" causes people to "hate you", then you should reevaluate it because its not "normal".

You should equip yourself with a time-machine.

what.

[Penkala]

Given that I've seen more arrogance and "We do what we want and the world can $%&@ off" posting from Superfriends than from anyone in NPO in the last month or so, it's difficult to really make that claim.

Maybe because NPO's in no position to do so anymore? And that's GOD giving all those threats they're lunatics we in MA don't really associate with them

Edit: and I've seen 'do something about it' a lot more from NSO alone in the past month than from SF, so...

Edited August 8, 2009 by Penkala

[Branimir]

Branamir, you are hoping for waaaay too much.

Silly me.

Simple calls for some class and demeanor unfortunately as usual, amounted to nothing.

Rabbit haters will hate, other haters will fake debate only now they come on a high horse. Mighty tumble from that high horse is, I wager. After a while just better to ignore bad rubbish, because reason is lost onto them.

Edited August 8, 2009 by Branimir

[Letum]

Well, I thought my response was self explanatory when combined with my previous posts in this thread, but here, just for you:

I don't place myself as any sort of spokes person, but am just merely relaying my opinion on the matter. My charecter is not what is in question, nor was it the topic of my responses or the posts that I responded too, so any sort of personal self evaluation on my part here would make little to no sense in regards to what I wrote. However, it seems you want to focus on me rather then the content of what I was saying.

To be clear, so your not confused, I was not trying to insult Pacifica, nor do I hate Pacifica (I thought this was reasonably inferred by what I said), so there is no measure of arrogance on my part involved. If anything, I was offering a bit of advice that basically breaks down to "Cut it out, and give other people a chance to like you again", yet you then turn around and and accuse me of being...I don't even know...not a good guy? lol

As far as I am concerned, you completely proved my point.

You can prance around definitions if you like, but stating what the community wants IS placing yourself as its spokesman, even if you put the "I believe" qualifier. Recognizing the subjective nature of your opinion does not grant you immunity from its irrational characteristics.

Likewise, saying we are not acting normal IS lambasting us as an abnormality.

I am not particularly concerned with what your character is like, merely with why you seem to be unable to read your own words.

And finally, claiming I "proved your point" on our perceived character flaws by merely pointing out the inconsistencies of your post says much more about your own head, and how far up in the clouds it is.

I believe in an effort to use big words in an angry fashion, you missed what I was trying to suggest (or..erm... allow my "subconscious to better preserve the dissonance between my own beliefs and the desire to rationalize and project them onto the Pacific"...aka suggest something lol) entirely. What I stated, what could help shed you all of this hate, was a very simple concept. If you find not being arrogant, not bullying because you can, or any of the other fundamental concepts that I listed as something that is offensive to suggest, you quite clearly have a problem. If, as a "human" what makes you "different" causes people to "hate you", then you should reevaluate it because its not "normal".

If the point I am trying to make flies over your head, it is a better strategy to ignore it rather than insert your own preconceptions in my mouth and attempt to counter that.

Before I highlight exactly how ridiculous that was, let me tell you that there is no hate I need to be shed from, because I do not have a very wide or pronounced range of emotions. If I were to describe my state right now, it would be closer to "bored and lazy" than the vindictive demon you seem convinced is lurking inside every Pacifican.

The very fact that you return to the "you have a problem" accusation merely highlights that you did not understand a thing. So I will explain it again:

Your beliefs are wrong. You do not think they are wrong, and therefore attempt to portray Pacificans as the very image of your beliefs (project) and come up with a seemingly based on reason, but ultimately incorrect excuse for it (rationalization). The difference between these two things is a cognitive "dissonance". If you had to confront that, you would have to shatter your beliefs and that is hard for humans to do; therefore your subconscious feels better if you simply define us as "something different", leaving you free to continue without having to evaluate yourself.

In fact, that is the very thing you did in your previous post; you took what I said, completely ignored it by writing it off as incoherent-sounding and hasty "long-words", and then proceeded to project your own beliefs of what I am "someone with hate" onto me, backing it up with a rationalization that "I have a problem" because I might find not being arrogant and a bully offensive (when I, quite curiously, never mentioned any sort of stance on those subjects, which means you quite literally pulled it out of your head and put the words in my mouth). Then you went on to further back if up with a further dose of "you are different", "you should reevaluate" and "its not normal".

what.

I'm pretty sure you know what a Time Machine does. When I say you should get one, It could only be a metaphor for looking more closely at the past for the sort of behaviour you describe. Come on, you should be able to get that.

[WarriorConcept]

What in the world are you people arguing? The statement of friendship or some other nonsense no one on the opposite side of you cares for?

[HeinousOne]

What in the world are you people arguing? The statement of friendship or some other nonsense no one on the opposite side of you cares for?

Yeah, this thread should have had about three pages of hails and then died. Unfortunately there are some folks that think no one should like the people that they themselves do not like. Why do people care so much and why are they giving this such a massive arena to be displayed in?

[King Hobbs]

Lovin the love!

o/Invicta

o/Pacifica

[AnCapistan]

And that's GOD giving all those threats they're lunatics we in MA don't really associate with them

You realize your tied to GOD via 4 treaty blocs right?

One being SF 0.0

[WarriorConcept]

Yeah, this thread should have had about three pages of hails and then died. Unfortunately there are some folks that think no one should like the people that they themselves do not like. Why do people care so much and why are they giving this such a massive arena to be displayed in?

Probably boredom.

[Eamon Valda]

From the creation and response of this thread, I think one can ascertain a few key facts.

First off, the work itself was completely unneeded. New Pacific Order and Invicta both, or any one with a half-rational mind, would easily recognize that a statement of friendship is such unless that statement was to point out it out definitively. Ok, so you, Pacifica, have a friend and wish to show it off. To me, and perhaps others, pointing this out seems to signal that your are on your way back up the ranks and plan to gain more allies. Not only is this implication in violation of the spirit of the surrender terms, but it does not seem kind in nature. I imagine that is why many people are in an uproar over this declaration. In the end, I really have to question why this was necessary at all, though.

As for the opposition, the Karma War is clearly over and this alliance has been soundly defeated. Whilst the intent of its message with this thread may be ominous and unnecessary, I don't feel it warrants such a harsh and outright attack. This defensive feel exactly, in my mind, follows what Corinan stated earlier in the thread: there is fear - or the appearance of it. Some posts advocated that the NPO has 'to learn as others have' but, mind you, you are well aware that 'learning' means conformity to the sanction of the power of others and to relegate its own spirit underneath the will of others (though he exaggerated, I think Heft pointed this out well). Regardless of whether that is the right or wrong course, it is obvious that an alliance with a history and strong bond as Pacifica is not going to 'learn' in the same way nor to the same degree. I think they will play with the rules to minimise their loses and maintain as much as their former position as possible. Obviously, for both ethical and practical reasons, they will not do what they have in the past - lest they be smashed to a bloody pulp. In this sense, I think the message I would give to the opposition to this thread is, 'chill out; you and I know this thread is pretty much worthless.'

Edited August 8, 2009 by Eamon Valda

[keltoi]

Nice to see friendships endure through the hard times

[scythegfx]

I'm not even going to read this thread, I'm just going to laugh at it.

I'm not even going to make a thought out response to this, I'm just going to laugh at you.

[Il Impero Romano]

You can prance around definitions if you like, but stating what the community wants IS placing yourself as its spokesman, even if you put the "I believe" qualifier. Recognizing the subjective nature of your opinion does not grant you immunity from its irrational characteristics.

Likewise, saying we are not acting normal IS lambasting us as an abnormality.

I am not particularly concerned with what your character is like, merely with why you seem to be unable to read your own words.

And finally, claiming I "proved your point" on our perceived character flaws by merely pointing out the inconsistencies of your post says much more about your own head, and how far up in the clouds it is.

You did not point out any inconsistencies, just merely accused me, like you did just now once more, of not reading my own words? Sorry, that dosent quite cut it if you want to try and sound intelligent. Back it up, explain your statement.

The characteristics of my opinion are not irrational, they are very simple in the best kind of way. Hell, I don't know what could possibly have a problem with out of what I said, but the fact that you do speaks volumes about your attitude, and the fact that you cant even point out what it is speaks volumes about your argument.

Believe me, my head is not in the clouds here. I made a reasonable statement and a fairly friendly suggestion, you basically responded with "HOW DARE YOU IM OFFENDED YOUR BAD AND WRONG AND I AM RIGHT". In a nutshell, that was my point, and the kind of thing you and your peers need to get away from.

If the point I am trying to make flies over your head, it is a better strategy to ignore it rather than insert your own preconceptions in my mouth and attempt to counter that.

Before I highlight exactly how ridiculous that was, let me tell you that there is no hate I need to be shed from, because I do not have a very wide or pronounced range of emotions. If I were to describe my state right now, it would be closer to "bored and lazy" than the vindictive demon you seem convinced is lurking inside every Pacifican.

What are you talking about? I addressed your words, none of it went over my head (sorry to disappoint you), and did not insert any preconceptions into your mouth. Your the one here who is completely not addressing the issue at hand, and your argument, which is entirely centered around nothing particular, hardly makes any sense.

Also, it seems your having a bit of an issue understanding. I was not speaking of you having hate, but the hate others have for you. I don't see a vindictive demon inside every Pacifican, but the contrary...I see the potential to not be seen as vindictive and bitter if only they would stop acting like it.

The very fact that you return to the "you have a problem" accusation merely highlights that you did not understand a thing. So I will explain it again:

Your beliefs are wrong. You do not think they are wrong, and therefore attempt to portray Pacificans as the very image of your beliefs (project) and come up with a seemingly based on reason, but ultimately incorrect excuse for it (rationalization). The difference between these two things is a cognitive "dissonance". If you had to confront that, you would have to shatter your beliefs and that is hard for humans to do; therefore your subconscious feels better if you simply define us as "something different", leaving you free to continue without having to evaluate yourself.

You understand this entire paragraph is based off of this sentence: "Your beliefs are wrong." right? lol

Here's the thing, my assessment on your pass behavior is well documented and based entirely on fact...you simply saying that it is false does not make it false. There is nothing for my subconcious to confront, no "cognitive dissonance", no attempt to portray your alliance as the image of my beliefs. Its far simpler then that, if you dont believe me do some reaserch into your alliances' history.

However, none of that was my point, and the fact that your fixating on it makes me think you did not actually read before responding. My point was, in essence, let the past go and move on to the future with a new reasonable attitude. You clearly have a problem with this suggestion, and once again that is telling.

In fact, that is the very thing you did in your previous post; you took what I said, completely ignored it by writing it off as incoherent-sounding and hasty "long-words", and then proceeded to project your own beliefs of what I am "someone with hate" onto me, backing it up with a rationalization that "I have a problem" because I might find not being arrogant and a bully offensive (when I, quite curiously, never mentioned any sort of stance on those subjects, which means you quite literally pulled it out of your head and put the words in my mouth). Then you went on to further back if up with a further dose of "you are different", "you should reevaluate" and "its not normal".

No, clearly I was correct earlier. Like I said, I fully understood your post, and concluded that your having trouble understanding because, quite plainly, you are. Not only is your argument (if you can call it that) based on denial and a warped sense of non-applicable human psychology, but you literally did not understand, or misunderstood, my posts. Because of this, your responses are seemingly random in regards to the topic at hand and my opinion on it. Go back, reread, re respond and I'll try to answer before I go out.

I'm pretty sure you know what a Time Machine does. When I say you should get one, It could only be a metaphor for looking more closely at the past for the sort of behaviour you describe. Come on, you should be able to get that.

Not sure why I would need to be the one looking at past behavior here...

Edited August 8, 2009 by Il Impero Romano

[scythegfx]

From the creation and response of this thread, I think one can ascertain a few key facts.

First off, the work itself was completely unneeded. New Pacific Order and Invicta both, or any one with a half-rational mind, would easily recognize that a statement of friendship is such unless that statement was to point out it out definitively. Ok, so you, Pacifica, have a friend and wish to show it off. To me, and perhaps others, pointing this out seems to signal that your are on your way back up the ranks and plan to gain more allies. Not only is this implication in violation of the spirit of the surrender terms, but it does not seem kind in nature. I imagine that is why many people are in an uproar over this declaration. In the end, I really have to question why this was necessary at all, though.

As for the opposition, the Karma War is clearly over and this alliance has been soundly defeated. Whilst the intent of its message with this thread may be ominous and unnecessary, I don't feel it warrants such a harsh and outright attack. This defensive feel exactly, in my mind, follows what Corinan stated earlier in the thread: there is fear - or the appearance of it. Some posts advocated that the NPO has 'to learn as others have' but, mind you, you are well aware that 'learning' means conformity to the sanction of the power of others and to relegate its own spirit underneath the will of others (though he exaggerated, I think Heft pointed this out well). Regardless of whether that is the right or wrong course, it is obvious that an alliance with a history and strong bond as Pacifica is not going to 'learn' in the same way nor to the same degree. I think they will play with the rules to minimise their loses and maintain as much as their former position as possible. Obviously, for both ethical and practical reasons, they will not do what they have in the past - lest they be smashed to a bloody pulp. In this sense, I think the message I would give to the opposition to this thread is, 'chill out; you and I know this thread is pretty much worthless.'

Your logic fails due to the fact that Invicta Posted this, not NPO.

[Eamon Valda]

Your logic fails due to the fact that Invicta Posted this, not NPO.

I don't see how that changes things unless you're suggesting that Invicta did all of this without the consent of the NPO. In that case, not only is this thread unneeded but friggin' hilarious. Tell me, which way is it?

[scythegfx]

I don't see how that changes things unless you're suggesting that Invicta did all of this without the consent of the NPO. In that case, not only is this thread unneeded but friggin' hilarious. Tell me, which way is it?

Come now, are you seriously suggesting that we did this without telling NPO and the Moo still managed to be the first to see it?

Really, The man isn't Mogar.

You are saying that NPO posted this to show the world the have friends and go "haha we still have friends lollolol".

I am saying you're wrong, We posted this to tell the world that we are friends with NPO and that we love them, that's all really.

besides, how many topics in the OWF are actually "needed"? How is this announcement any less important than an alliance 1 million NS announcement or 200 members announcement, or even MK's 200 nukes announcement?

[Branimir]

Ok, so you, Pacifica, have a friend and wish to show it off.

I am always flattered by those that view the world Pacifica centric, for good or bad, but honestly this is not more about Pacifica then Invicta.

Actually, it sounds to me more about Invicta. They are saying that although they are getting closed doors and mockery for being our friends, from people they have nothing against, and although it would be easier and trendier for them to as such leave us, their principles do not allow them.

In a way it is a message against such mentality they outlined and they are trying to overcome it.

To me, and perhaps others, pointing this out seems to signal that your are on your way back up the ranks and plan to gain more allies.

Again, flattering is this fear contained in "maybe ominous" comments, but honestly common now,...We have a long 6 months and then some ahead of us. People need to chill, as you say, we are defeated and only starting to start recovering.

I do feel that some who waste a lot of energy here, concentrating on NPO, should waste it elsewhere before its too late for them,...

I think the message I would give to the opposition to this thread is, 'chill out; you and I know this thread is pretty much worthless.'

Not worthless to us. I know that because of many alliances out there, and their many statements of friendship in treaty or other form, it can become to some tiresome and thus seem worthless, but it isn't as friendship between entities shouldn't be considered worthless by anybody, friends or foes.

If you meant by "worthless" nothing to fear of, then you are more correct in your message. This is a statement of friendship, not a threat to anybody or even a show of force. And yet as you correctly outlined, so many flipped over it. It is silly.

[Waterana]

First and most important, Invicta.

Second, I want to comment on this 'change' and 'acting humble' rubbish I've been reading in this thread. I'll use myself. Pre this war, concerning the 18 alliance that fought and defeated NPO, I was barely aware of half of them (GOD, The International, RnR to name a few), indifferent towards others (Athens for one), and actually liked a couple (VE and =LOST=). Now, thanks only to this war, and not just the smashing of our alliance and harsh reps but also the attitude from members of those alliances, and constant spewing forth of venom and bile aimed at us and our allies, treatment of allies like Echelon, not to mention levels of arrogance that puts what we supposedly display to shame, both during the war and after, I have fostered a healthy anger and hate towards all of them. I sincerely hope to see each and every one of them crushed over the next 12 to 24 months. Not necessarily at our hands either.

That attitude wasn't born out of arrogance, I used to be one of the mildest tempered forgiving people in the game, but that has changed big time, thanks only to the attitudes and actions of karma members. I don't know if any other NPO members have gone down the same road as I have, but if any of you expect me in sackcloth and ashes begging for forgiveness, forget it. It ain't gonna happen. I despise you all to much to even consider it (you as in alliances, not individuals).

Maybe when the arrogance and hate on your side fades, mine will too. Who knows. Won't hold my breath waiting for that to happen, as the attitudes displayed from some of you in this thread, a thread simply reaffirming a close friendship between two allies that had their treaty cancelled by force by outsiders, has shown me no matter what happens, no matter what we do, no matter how hard we try, there will always be those that will never let go of their hatred. So give me one good reason why I should, and please don't mention being humble, it will just make me laugh again.

[Eamon Valda]

Come now, are you seriously suggesting that we did this without telling NPO and the Moo still managed to be the first to see it?

Really, The man isn't Mogar.

You are saying that NPO posted this to show the world the have friends and go "haha we still have friends lollolol".

I am saying you're wrong, We posted this to tell the world that we are friends with NPO and that we love them, that's all really.

besides, how many topics in the OWF are actually "needed"? How is this announcement any less important than an alliance 1 million NS announcement or 200 members announcement, or even MK's 200 nukes announcement?

Nah, I was just asking if that is what you meant. I see that our idea of the intention of the thread disagrees. I don't think that there's any point in arguing a difference of opinion. So, let's just agree to disagree and let things play out.

@ Brainmir: Again, I think we disagree in the intent of the thread. I understand that part of the original message, from a moral standpoint, has little or nothing to do with the practical issues I mentioned. Also, when I say 'chill out' I mean that to the people who are flat out against this thread, not people such as yourself (to whom I recognise it does matter, or so I think). As with scy, no point is arguing opinion further since I'll just keep reusing the same arguments. Good day, sir.

[NEWBert]

Much love, Invicta. If I was a person who hugged, I would hug you. Maybe.

...I can't believe these words just came out of Mary's mouth. Not that I doubt the NPO/Invicta love, but Mary...hugging someone?

[menwearpink135]

I'm not even going to make a thought out response to this, I'm just going to laugh at you.

But by quoting me, you do make a response, and bring me back to this thread. And now I will say why I am laughing. Invicta has been a close follower of the NPO for a long time. They meant a lot to you, but um seeing as the way they treated a strong militaristic alliance like TORN, it all came true that they are just looking out for themselves. Now they are desperate because everyone has abandoned them. Who do they go to that will still listen? Invicta. The fact that people like IRON have decided to move on yet you haven't it the reason I am laughing.