At Long Last, the End of the Karma War

[Azaghul]

Had TORN led off alone against OV, MK would have certainly had the option, although I believe that treaty has a non-chaining clause.

We would have had the option, but it's a non-stacking and optional offense with the clear understanding that counter attacks to an offensive attack fall under offense, like all our treaties outside of C&G, so we wouldn't have been obliged to enter. If the rest of C&G and/or our other allies were going one way or strongly wanted to go one way, there's no way we would have gone in optionally in support of TORN.

I guess you should ask around for some IRC logs of #collective, read them and you would instantly know that Karma wasn´t prepared at all. Note: #collective was a hell of a leak and i won´t wonder if your gov has enough logs.

You can thank Liquid Mercury and enderland for your military defeat as the two were the main coordinators but don´t forget LM got into that position, if memory serves right, right after NPO declared.

There was clearly no detailed plan prior to the war, just the usual guessing and tossing around what could happen, who would be with whom and who could fight who.

Ask around, Grämlins had less or no contact to VE or any other C&G and superfriends alliance except for FARK and MK.

There was no masterplan, it´s a myth or you were feed propaganda.

I remember all my talks with you during that time and this is definitely true. I miss seeing you on IRC

There were of course rumors and anticipation of a war, but there was not any organized effort and the anticipation was based on the (correct) assumption that someone on "our side" would be attacked.

I doubt CnG would have stood by as SF was being crushed; the implications of that in the future would be obvious. As for Citadel, Umbrella and Gromlins would have gotten in regardless as we are both MDPed to Fark.

MK's connections with Citadel and Vanguard's with Superfriends and close associates basically insured that we would come to the defense of either of those two blocks, and that any war involving one of the 3 blocks was likely to involve all 3. Even if Q had tried to use OUT to keep Vanguard out of any immediate response, we would have committed ourselves. Even if Archon was/is good friends with some in NPO and wanted neutrality, the general membership of MK and all the other C&G alliances were very strongly against Q in any potential war. The Q&A and highly lopsided vote against an NPO MDP should have made NPO aware of the general membership's feeling in MK.

Honestly, we never expected to make it past January without a war starting, until January rolled around and nothing happened, anyway. Personally, I think that was the tipping point. A lot of vulnerable spots started disappearing around February, and a lot of cracks started really cropping up in Continuum.

I think Vox's biggest victory, more than any information they actually managed to obtain, was making certain parts of the Continuum side of the web so fiercely paranoid and indecisive that they didn't know which end was up and ultimately defeated themselves. Quite frankly, I was always just a bit stupefied at the reaction many people had to Vox in the back channels. It was odder than the public reaction in a lot of ways. And, for the most part, that started showing up after January.

Vox's leaders were very smart and I am sure then as now that their primary goal with most of the spying and TWiP was to create paranoia in NPO's and Qs ranks.

[Bower3aj]

The last time an Orange alliance attacked another, it was GLOF, and we all know what happened there. It wasn't good for GLOF.

meh, I wasn't around back then, but it got us into OUT in the end. Which was something that we had been trying very hard to do but couldn't succeed at until we attacked TORN. We got moderate terms and a extension of friendship from OUT for being willing to defend our allies no matter what. We're stronger now than ever. I'd say it worked out just fine for us. If anything we're better for it.

[TrotskysRevenge]

you are greatly misinformed here, Tyga.

NPO was stonewalling us. We were trying to get answers from them, they weren,'t answering the phones. When something this serious arises, the message of "We're the NPO, don't question us" doesn't cut it.

No. Just no.

Maybe that is what you were told, but it is hardly the truth. No one queried me, no one spoke with me, no one asked a single question, of me or my leadership. All we were given was silence; I don't think anyone wanted answers.

[Sileath]

No. Just no.

Maybe that is what you were told, but it is hardly the truth. No one queried me, no one spoke with me, no one asked a single question, of me or my leadership. All we were given was silence; I don't think anyone wanted answers.

I'm trying to stay out of this thread as much as possible, but I'll just say that in my experience, I've always found the NPO IO's, including Moo, to be incredibly forthcoming concerning NPO actions and positions, so I'll have to endorse this quoted version of events.

[Tygaland]

No. Just no.

Maybe that is what you were told, but it is hardly the truth. No one queried me, no one spoke with me, no one asked a single question, of me or my leadership. All we were given was silence; I don't think anyone wanted answers.

We have certainly had our differences of opinion of late but I find your version of events with regards to communication to be more believable.

If your allies came to you that night to ask what was happening with reference to what TORN had told them about the NPO seeking peace behind TORN's back, I find it impossible to believe you'd ignore their questions. It just makes no sense at all for the NPO to do that as putting your side of the story across would have been far more beneficial for you as an alliance than stonewalling as is alleged by Lord Levistus.

I have no idea who is telling the truth but, look at things logically, NPO stonewalling at that point in time seems highly improbable.

[HeinousOne]

I'm trying to stay out of this thread as much as possible, but I'll just say that in my experience, I've always found the NPO IO's, including Moo, to be incredibly forthcoming concerning NPO actions and positions, so I'll have to endorse this quoted version of events.

What???

Look, I believe what Revenge is stating but to go so far as to say NPO IO's are incredibly forthcoming concerning NPO actions and positions? I would ask you to whom are they so open to and thus how would you know?

[ChairmanHal]

You are completely correct from where I stand. Neither I, nor my allies to my knowledge, had any sort of plan to orchestrate a grand offensive war. We expected war to come every day, yes - but a war of aggression designed to ensnare and destroy us. That was what we sometimes discussed, and that was all. An offensive war against Hegemony would never have gained the support of the Citadel alliances, for instance, who were key elements in securing victory in the Karma War.

Funny, that's not at all the impression I got from a convo I had with one of the leadership in what would become known as Karma on March 14, 2009. Indeed, this individual was rather specific that something was in the works and that the launch date was sometime between the end of March and the end of April.

Why yes, I do have logs...now that the war is safely over and much of the backroom stuff is coming out. As I have not spoken with the individual about revealing the logs, let's call him 'Joe'.

[23:27] {<joe>} I'd like for you to keep quiet

[23:27] {<joe>} We've got some stuff in the works

[23:28] {<ChairmanHal>} ahh....not something that depends on Sparta or some alliance that will get a case of the weak knees I hope

[23:28] {<joe>} No

[23:28] {<joe>} Not at all

[23:28] {<ChairmanHal>} like what time frame...just bought my WRC ya see and well...warchest isn't the greatest

[23:28] {<joe>} We will do it our way, and we'll leave it up to ourselves so no stuff ups happen

[23:28] {<joe>} heh

[23:29] {<joe>} I was considering getting a MP, but the damned warchest

[23:29] {<ChairmanHal>} ahhh...gotcha

[23:29] {<joe>} I'd like to think we'd be getting very hot by the end of March, Latest end of next month

[23:30] {<ChairmanHal>} ok, so then a couple of weeks

[23:30] {<joe>} yes

[23:32] {<ChairmanHal>} I can tell you that what you have doesn't need to be over the top great to get your fight

[23:33] {<ChairmanHal>} look on the bright side though....

[23:33] {<ChairmanHal>} war is a feature of the game XD

[23:33] {<joe>} Oh, I know

[23:33] {<joe>} You need to understand that we need a few more things done before we'll be ready

[23:34] {<ChairmanHal>} ok

Regarding the reference to Sparta. No disrespect to them, but at one point while I was still with Rok, we were hoping that they would pursue what appeared to be a valid CB over an issue and they let NPO talk them straight out of it. In the end it didn't matter, NPO was simply outplayed in the foreign policy arena.

[Shodemofi-NPO]

I see you there, lurking there mhawk, come say hello!

[Ch33kY]

All good things must come to an end.

[Sandwich Controversy]

I see you there, lurking there mhawk, come say hello!

I would certainly like to hear his take on this turn of events!!

[Rafael Nadal]

meh, I wasn't around back then, but it got us into OUT in the end. Which was something that we had been trying very hard to do but couldn't succeed at until we attacked TORN. We got moderate terms and a extension of friendship from OUT for being willing to defend our allies no matter what. We're stronger now than ever. I'd say it worked out just fine for us. If anything we're better for it.

I wouldn't consider the BS GLOF was subjected to, a rite of passage into OUT.

[rsoxbronco1]

Funny, that's not at all the impression I got from a convo I had with one of the leadership in what would become known as Karma on March 14, 2009. Indeed, this individual was rather specific that something was in the works and that the launch date was sometime between the end of March and the end of April.

Why yes, I do have logs...now that the war is safely over and much of the backroom stuff is coming out. As I have not spoken with the individual about revealing the logs, let's call him 'Joe'.

[23:27] {<joe>} I'd like for you to keep quiet

[23:27] {<joe>} We've got some stuff in the works

[23:28] {<ChairmanHal>} ahh....not something that depends on Sparta or some alliance that will get a case of the weak knees I hope

[23:28] {<joe>} No

[23:28] {<joe>} Not at all

[23:28] {<ChairmanHal>} like what time frame...just bought my WRC ya see and well...warchest isn't the greatest

[23:28] {<joe>} We will do it our way, and we'll leave it up to ourselves so no stuff ups happen

[23:28] {<joe>} heh

[23:29] {<joe>} I was considering getting a MP, but the damned warchest

[23:29] {<ChairmanHal>} ahhh...gotcha

[23:29] {<joe>} I'd like to think we'd be getting very hot by the end of March, Latest end of next month

[23:30] {<ChairmanHal>} ok, so then a couple of weeks

[23:30] {<joe>} yes

[23:32] {<ChairmanHal>} I can tell you that what you have doesn't need to be over the top great to get your fight

[23:33] {<ChairmanHal>} look on the bright side though....

[23:33] {<ChairmanHal>} war is a feature of the game XD

[23:33] {<joe>} Oh, I know

[23:33] {<joe>} You need to understand that we need a few more things done before we'll be ready

[23:34] {<ChairmanHal>} ok

Regarding the reference to Sparta. No disrespect to them, but at one point while I was still with Rok, we were hoping that they would pursue what appeared to be a valid CB over an issue and they let NPO talk them straight out of it. In the end it didn't matter, NPO was simply outplayed in the foreign policy arena.

Drats!

Hal has torn down the curtain hiding our maniacal plan to have NPO attack OV in the middle of negotiations over something the NPO has resolved privately and without war when it concerns allies of allies need.

Edit: let this be a lesson to OV...make sure you treaty alliances the NPO values as treaty partners.

Edited August 6, 2009 by rsoxbronco1

[ChairmanHal]

Drats!

Hal has torn down the curtain hiding our maniacal plan to have NPO attack OV in the middle of negotiations over something the NPO has resolved privately and without war when it concerns allies of allies need.

Edit: let this be a lesson to OV...make sure you treaty alliances the NPO values as treaty partners.

Actually, I'm being rather serious, whatever sarcasm you feel necessary to push. To this day I do not know the exact plan "Joe" was talking about. Depending on when Athens came on board, your leadership may not have been aware of what it was either.

It is however clear that Karma was never some last minute thrown together coalition that saw OV about to get beat up and decided that enough was enough. The roots of the planning for this war go back several months, whether it was a potential Q attack in December that never happened or something strictly on Karma's terms later on.

[HeinousOne]

Actually, I'm being rather serious, whatever sarcasm you feel necessary to push. To this day I do not know the exact plan "Joe" was talking about. Depending on when Athens came on board, your leadership may not have been aware of what it was either.

It is however clear that Karma was never some last minute thrown together coalition that saw OV about to get beat up and decided that enough was enough. The roots of the planning for this war go back several months, whether it was a potential Q attack in December that never happened or something strictly on Karma's terms later on.

Wow, duh?

[rsoxbronco1]

Actually, I'm being rather serious, whatever sarcasm you feel necessary to push. To this day I do not know the exact plan "Joe" was talking about. Depending on when Athens came on board, your leadership may not have been aware of what it was either.

It is however clear that Karma was never some last minute thrown together coalition that saw OV about to get beat up and decided that enough was enough. The roots of the planning for this war go back several months, whether it was a potential Q attack in December that never happened or something strictly on Karma's terms later on.

I'm not saying we weren't always planning for round 2, but I think Karma came together more rapidly than anyone in the former hegemony would like to admit.

[HeinousOne]

I'm not saying we weren't always planning for round 2, but I think Karma came together more rapidly than anyone in the former hegemony would like to admit.

The idea of forming up against the NPO should they continue on the same path was no new idea. Vox's success is proof of that. We don't need special logs of Hal speaking to his morning coffee to understand that.

[ChairmanHal]

Wow, duh?

Wow duh, at one point I was told I was wearing a tinfoil hat for even suggesting that what would become Karma existed as a collection of alliances prior to April 2009. Now all the sudden it obvious?

[Rafael Nadal]

Actually, I'm being rather serious, whatever sarcasm you feel necessary to push. To this day I do not know the exact plan "Joe" was talking about. Depending on when Athens came on board, your leadership may not have been aware of what it was either.

It is however clear that Karma was never some last minute thrown together coalition that saw OV about to get beat up and decided that enough was enough. The roots of the planning for this war go back several months, whether it was a potential Q attack in December that never happened or something strictly on Karma's terms later on.

We've all admitted that there were "sides" well before Karma came around; that's not breaking news. It's also quite obvious, considering the ties between Citadel, SF, and CnG. The only semblance of balance in CN was centered around those three blocs being together. I'm pretty sure both SF and CnG knew that it was only a matter of time before it was their turn, if one or the other had let the other be defeated. So yes, CnG and SF had been "together" for a while. Citadel was certainly not with us to the same extent, but ended up with us for a variety of reasons. One or a few people might have thought they had some genius plan to create a winnable offensive war, but I can pretty much guarantee the wide overall support needed would not be there.

There was no Karma months before the OV issue

[Kaiser]

Wow duh, at one point I was told I was wearing a tinfoil hat for even suggesting that what would become Karma existed as a collection of alliances prior to April 2009. Now all the sudden it obvious?

So what do you see happening in the future, oh wise prophet?

[Essenia]

So what do you see happening in the future, oh wise prophet?

“The dark side clouds everything. Impossible to see the future is.”

[HeinousOne]

Wow duh, at one point I was told I was wearing a tinfoil hat for even suggesting that what would become Karma existed as a collection of alliances prior to April 2009. Now all the sudden it obvious?

Wait...you are trying to say that all these alliances were ready to do this that many months ago? No, they were not organized together in this, they were just feeling similiar when it comes to such. The fact that so many people worked with Vox proves that. It really did take the NPO making an absolutely disasterous move at the most inopportune time to bring all those alliances with similiar views towards the hegemony together to actually do what happened.

There is a difference.

[fireguy15207]

We've all admitted that there were "sides" well before Karma came around; that's not breaking news. It's also quite obvious, considering the ties between Citadel, SF, and CnG. The only semblance of balance in CN was centered around those three blocs being together. I'm pretty sure both SF and CnG knew that it was only a matter of time before it was their turn, if one or the other had let the other be defeated. So yes, CnG and SF had been "together" for a while. Citadel was certainly not with us to the same extent, but ended up with us for a variety of reasons. One or a few people might have thought they had some genius plan to create a winnable offensive war, but I can pretty much guarantee the wide overall support needed would not be there.

There was no Karma months before the OV issue

You're quite correct. During the Q era, we knew that we were going to get a war, and it was probably going to kill us. Hell, Hal was a leader of SF, he knew that it's our suicide pact. He's talking like this is some sort of state secret that he's just now showing to the world. Anyone who's tied into the political scene knew that NPO liked to crush alliances and blocs that seems to threatened their position. SF believed that we were becoming that threat, even though we weren't being threatening. But there really was no grand plan set up months and months before the war even happened. It really did just come together. The number one reason why it fit together so perfectly was because NPO had pissed off so many people during the past two years. So, thanks NPO, for engineering your own destruction.

[Essenia]

You're quite correct. During the Q era, we knew that we were going to get a war, and it was probably going to kill us. Hell, Hal was a leader of SF, he knew that it's our suicide pact. He's talking like this is some sort of state secret that he's just now showing to the world. Anyone who's tied into the political scene knew that NPO liked to crush alliances and blocs that seems to threatened their position. SF believed that we were becoming that threat, even though we weren't being threatening. But there really was no grand plan set up months and months before the war even happened. It really did just come together. The number one reason why it fit together so perfectly was because NPO had pissed off so many people during the past two years. So, thanks NPO, for engineering your own destruction.

I was not in any government or important position in any alliance and I figured this out and I'm sure many others did. It's not rocket science and it still mystifies me as to why Hal thinks he's revealing some secret plan.

[ChairmanHal]

We've all admitted that there were "sides" well before Karma came around; that's not breaking news. It's also quite obvious, considering the ties between Citadel, SF, and CnG. The only semblance of balance in CN was centered around those three blocs being together. I'm pretty sure both SF and CnG knew that it was only a matter of time before it was their turn, if one or the other had let the other be defeated. So yes, CnG and SF had been "together" for a while. Citadel was certainly not with us to the same extent, but ended up with us for a variety of reasons. One or a few people might have thought they had some genius plan to create a winnable offensive war, but I can pretty much guarantee the wide overall support needed would not be there.

Gramlins had been considered a prime target of NPO dating back to last year actually. Scenarios were constructed by a variety of parties regarding an attempt to "rescue" Gramlins if they had been attacked by Q. Those plans never got past the theoretical stage so far as I know.

There was no Karma months before the OV issue

There certainly was no "Karma" when I left Ragnarok toward the end of February. Talks were underway between a wide variety of alliances, including alliances that still had existing treaties with NPO. Xiph and Big_Z of GOD figured prominently in those talks and attempts to organize. That is why I never speak of "Karma" but of "what would eventually become Karma" when I refer to that era. However by mid-March, there was some sort of significant organization in place, else "Joe" would not have been confident that they would be ready in less than a month.

[Rafael Nadal]

Gramlins had been considered a prime target of NPO dating back to last year actually. Scenarios were constructed by a variety of parties regarding an attempt to "rescue" Gramlins if they had been attacked by Q. Those plans never got past the theoretical stage so far as I know.

There certainly was no "Karma" when I left Ragnarok toward the end of February. Talks were underway between a wide variety of alliances, including alliances that still had existing treaties with NPO. Xiph and Big_Z of GOD figured prominently in those talks and attempts to organize. That is why I never speak of "Karma" but of "what would eventually become Karma" when I refer to that era. However by mid-March, there was some sort of significant organization in place, else "Joe" would not have been confident that they would be ready in less than a month.

I'm well aware of the ideology that we, those who opposed NPO, couldn't let Gramlins get rolled by Q. Gramlins was always considered, right or wrong, for better or worse, more independent minded than the rest of Q and thus, the best candidate for which we could stake our hopes on. Gramlins was more..."like us" than anybody else, and we all saw them as the most likely to come in conflict with NPO, among NPO's buddies in Q. It also helped that Gramlins was/is one of the most powerful alliances in CN due to their avg NS.

Edit: Grammar

Edit2: Or Joe was just plain overconfident, seeing as we weren't assured of all the support we eventually received, even after the attack on OV.

Edited August 6, 2009 by Rafael Nadal